| Re: Formula 20 foiling class ?
[Re: Carl]
#263907 09/16/13 07:09 AM 09/16/13 07:09 AM |
Joined: Dec 2001 Posts: 5,590 Naples, FL waterbug_wpb
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Posts: 5,590 Naples, FL | foils outside the max beam sound relatively dangerous, both for crew retrieval as well as boat/boat crossings (starts, roundings, etc)...
Jay
| | | Re: Formula 20 foiling class ?
[Re: Carl]
#263935 09/16/13 11:18 AM 09/16/13 11:18 AM |
Joined: Dec 2001 Posts: 5,590 Naples, FL waterbug_wpb
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Posts: 5,590 Naples, FL | screw them... I was worried I'd chip a foil if I brushed up against them...
Hey, you scratched my anchor!
Jay
| | | Re: Formula 20 foiling class ?
[Re: samc99us]
#264014 09/17/13 07:39 AM 09/17/13 07:39 AM |
Joined: Dec 2001 Posts: 5,590 Naples, FL waterbug_wpb
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Posts: 5,590 Naples, FL | out of curiosity, how do you start in a crowded line with a bunch of H-18/wings? Or F-18 skiffs / 49ers for that matter? Do the wings get all tangled up?
Jay
| | | Re: Formula 20 foiling class ?
[Re: waterbug_wpb]
#264037 09/17/13 09:59 AM 09/17/13 09:59 AM |
Joined: Nov 2005 Posts: 96 Carl OP
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Posts: 96 | Naples is such a nice area --you are fortunate to have such a beautifull area to sail, lived there several decades ago --
I raced Hobie 21s way back when--they had elevated hiking racks and spin set up, you sheeted the kite off the hiking rack which made for better sheeting angle and open slot--funny though--if you forgot to tie in the hiking racks the spin would pull them right out of their hull insert and you would have a rack flyng around in the air at the end of the spin sheet. The hiking racks were not a problem and actually very nice to trap off being higher and further out from the hull --less spray and better visuals.
Noticed Morelli Melvin design already offering a 45 ft foiling cat on their website for club racing--interesting.
Last edited by Carl; 09/17/13 07:51 PM.
| | | Re: Formula 20 foiling class ?
[Re: samc99us]
#264101 09/17/13 07:53 PM 09/17/13 07:53 PM |
Joined: Nov 2005 Posts: 96 Carl OP
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Posts: 96 | | | | Re: Formula 20 foiling class ?
[Re: Carl]
#264146 09/18/13 12:13 PM 09/18/13 12:13 PM |
Joined: Mar 2009 Posts: 932 Solomon's Island, MD samc99us
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Posts: 932 Solomon's Island, MD | That video has been out for a while now. At least 2 C-Class teams are foiling. Unknown is Steve Clarke's foil package, Team Invictus' foil package, and the Portugese foil package, though I suspect the last 2 are non-foiling and Steve is probably semi-foiling. The Canadians are playing it close to their chest but have L-foils, with the intent to be a surface skimmer. This will all be very exciting to watch.
I am of the belief that you need a big, lightweight platform with lots of efficient power. Wider is better, longer is more pitch stable etc. Just because it works on an AC72 doesn't mean it works on a C-Class, and is even less likely to work on a 20 footer. Even if it does pan out, all successful attempts I've seen require world class sailing to master. Bringing this to the masses might require another revolution in the area of waterproof electronics.
Scorpion F18
| | | Re: Formula 20 foiling class ?
[Re: samc99us]
#264197 09/18/13 04:23 PM 09/18/13 04:23 PM |
Joined: Nov 2005 Posts: 96 Carl OP
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Posts: 96 | The A Class cats at 18 ft Length with 7.5 beam seem to foil well.
Sail area to length ratios are a key componant .150 sq ft on an A is proportionately easier to stabalize as is 300 on a 25 ft 14 ft beam C Class cat --20s would be somewhere in between with similar performance and 2 crew --but more practical and affordable than a C Class cat .
Given how many enjoyed the Trifoiler The Rave foiler and others it would seem foilers take no unusual skill.
20s were historically the B Class cat --The Tornado design dominated that category for decades You are correct --a few need to build foiling 20s then build a racing class around it--the CF 20s with radius boards are close already --they need board mods to the L foiling shape and rudder redesign.They aren't far off now and surface foil.
Given the foiling mode being predominant for speed I think hull design -rig design -and foils themselves will continue to be refined to complement foiling speeds --Hulls no longer need to go THROUGH the water but should sit on top moreso --Bows in particular need to resist nose dives as they fall off foiling mode . The sail plan itself should be more oriented to help provide verticle lift --.
Funny -how basic human behaviors have not really changed much over time --there will always, ALWAYS be a portion that say in essence ---hey --we have perfectly good sticks to drag along the ground with mastadon skins stretched across to carry food --why would we need that round wheely thing attached to it ?
have fun enjoyed the hypotheticals Sam best regards Carl
Last edited by Carl; 09/18/13 04:32 PM.
| | | Re: Formula 20 foiling class ?
[Re: Carl]
#264228 09/19/13 07:24 AM 09/19/13 07:24 AM |
Joined: Mar 2009 Posts: 932 Solomon's Island, MD samc99us
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Posts: 932 Solomon's Island, MD | Carl, I certainly think this has the ability to revolutionize the 20' class. Unfortunately, I'm not sure who is left to afford such a project. I know it's getting tougher to justify the price of a new F18 when said boat costs more than the average price of the SUV used to tow it, and we haven't yet been able to tap into the J/70 market. The A-cat's aren't flying around the course. Semi-foiling downwind yes, but no one has course raced a full-flying A. I think the box rules there are too limiting, but even more so is you only have 1 person to handle boards etc. The other development is relatively easy to be honest, windsurfers have been traveling at >30 kts for many decades, as have the Moths for approaching a decade. Plenty of CFD for hull shape analysis, and intellectual know-how on that front. I might come across as the anti-foiler but that is far from the case. I think an affordable, $20K 2 person foiling beach cat has huge market appeal. When PSA wants $5800 for the foiling kit for a laser...not sure it's doable
Scorpion F18
| | | Re: Formula 20 foiling class ?
[Re: samc99us]
#264670 09/23/13 09:15 AM 09/23/13 09:15 AM |
Joined: Dec 2001 Posts: 5,590 Naples, FL waterbug_wpb
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Posts: 5,590 Naples, FL | $20K 2 person foiling beach cat how would you make a foiling cat "beach-able"? it looks like current foil (not C-shape) designs all have foils inserted from under the boat (unlike daggarboards), so even pulling them up will expose some part(s) of the foil to potential contact with said beach... might make putting boat on beach wheels a bit more challenging, too...? And would this market be limited to more of the experienced racing sailors, or do you think foiling technology could eventually be idiot-proof? A relative novice can get on a F-18 today and sail it (not be competitive). Could they do the same on a foiling boat with rudimentary knowledge of sailing?
Jay
| | | Re: Formula 20 foiling class ?
[Re: Carl]
#264681 09/23/13 11:06 AM 09/23/13 11:06 AM |
Joined: Mar 2009 Posts: 932 Solomon's Island, MD samc99us
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Posts: 932 Solomon's Island, MD | By beach cat, I mean 2-hulled 16-20' boat. No, I don't think you'll see this winning Tybee anytime soon. Beach wheels is a question for the C-class guys, as is how they insert their foils.
Relatively idiot proof? Maybe, I don't see breaking foils every time you flip. Spending a lot of time swimming? Absolutely.
Scorpion F18
| | | Re: Formula 20 foiling class ?
[Re: samc99us]
#264802 09/24/13 07:40 AM 09/24/13 07:40 AM |
Joined: Dec 2001 Posts: 5,590 Naples, FL waterbug_wpb
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Posts: 5,590 Naples, FL | the moth guys have figured out the foiling part, but it sure isn't idiot-proof... or cheap
Jay
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