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Rules Question: Room at the Mark (Gate) #266386
10/20/13 07:40 PM
10/20/13 07:40 PM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,246
Orlando, FL
tback Offline OP
veteran
tback  Offline OP
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,246
Orlando, FL
Racing this weekend and a situation came up that I believe we were fouled:


Two boats approaching leeward gate(s) on port tack, both fetching the left hand mark.

We both hit the circle with the other boat as the inside overlap (windward-port -- WP) boat.

We were providing "room at the mark" for the other boat; however the WP was high of the mark.

WP instead of going low-and-slow to make a seaman's rounding (with room), decided to gybe to Starboard (inside the circle).

He then stayed on Starboard as if going to the right-hand mark forcing us to gybe in order to avoid a collision. In doing so we exited the 3-boat circle

He then gybed back and rounded the left-hand mark.

I hailed PROTEST.

I ended up not going to the "room" but was curious to understand the rules to see if I was correct in my assessment.





USA 777
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Rules Question: Room at the Mark (Gate) [Re: tback] #266390
10/21/13 06:38 AM
10/21/13 06:38 AM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,884
Detroit, MI
mbounds Offline
Pooh-Bah
mbounds  Offline
Pooh-Bah

Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,884
Detroit, MI
If I'm visualizing this correctly, there was no foul. (A diagram would be very helpful.)

The defined term "fetching" does not apply at a leeward mark.

WP is not required to go "low and slow" - if they continued on port, they would be contrained (since they are the windward give way boat) to sail to the mark and their proper course while at the mark (the "seamanlike" rounding you are thinking of). However, nothing prevents them from heading up and gybing to stbd.

When WP gybed, they had to give you room to keep clear (rule 15) - and you did

Rule 18.4 (Gybing) doesn't apply at a gate.

With WP on stbd tack, you were required to keep clear - and you did.

WP was still entitled to mark room (rule 18.2 c 1) - as long as they did not leave the zone.

No contact, so rule 14 doesn't apply.

No foul.

(this had to be really light air - no way could this scenario play out in a breeze)

Re: Rules Question: Room at the Mark (Gate) [Re: mbounds] #266391
10/21/13 09:02 AM
10/21/13 09:02 AM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,246
Orlando, FL
tback Offline OP
veteran
tback  Offline OP
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,246
Orlando, FL
Yes, fairly light winds @ 6-7 kts.

Gybing and forcing me out of the 3 boat circle would seem to be more of a tactical rounding than a seaman's like rounding


USA 777
Re: Rules Question: Room at the Mark (Gate) [Re: tback] #266394
10/21/13 11:19 AM
10/21/13 11:19 AM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,884
Detroit, MI
mbounds Offline
Pooh-Bah
mbounds  Offline
Pooh-Bah

Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,884
Detroit, MI
If there was no mark, you'd still have to keep clear if he gybed (rule 10), and he still would have to give you room to keep clear (rule 15).

Rule 18 applies because both of you are required to leave a mark on the same side and at least one of you is in the zone.

Rule 18.2(b) required you to give mark room, unless the boat owed mark room leaves the zone.

Forcing you out of the zone is only relevant if someone else owed you mark room.

It's a subtle way to convert a low/slow give-way boat ("seamanlike") rounding into a right-of-way ("tactical") rounding, but it's not going to happen that often. You lose so much velocity in the downspeed second gybe and since it's directed at a particular opponent, it's essentially a team / match racing tactic.

Tuck this away in your brain's scenario database so you can anticipate it next time.

Re: Rules Question: Room at the Mark (Gate) [Re: tback] #267110
11/19/13 09:34 PM
11/19/13 09:34 PM
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 382
SE MI / NE IN
rehmbo Offline
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rehmbo  Offline
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Posts: 382
SE MI / NE IN
Here's a variation on the theme that I got caught in this summer. Still a bit stumped on this one.

I (yellow) was coming in on starboard gybe, intending to round the left gate. Blue came in on port. I hailed starboard. He hailed inside overlap. Being the newbie, I ducked him, but wonder if I should have.
[Linked Image]

If at position 2 I was in the mark zone for the right gate, would I have had inside overlap too?

Last edited by rehmbo; 11/20/13 07:24 AM. Reason: smaller pic - faster load

Jeff R

H18, C2 USA1193
cramsailing.com
crescentsail.com
Re: Rules Question: Room at the Mark (Gate) [Re: rehmbo] #267111
11/19/13 09:43 PM
11/19/13 09:43 PM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,884
Detroit, MI
mbounds Offline
Pooh-Bah
mbounds  Offline
Pooh-Bah

Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,884
Detroit, MI
You were on stbd tack, so you had the right of way the entire time. He only had mark room WRT the left gate mark - and then only room to sail to the mark and his proper course when rounding (no tactical rounding).

But you did the right thing - except for saying "protest" and filling out the form.

Re: Rules Question: Room at the Mark (Gate) [Re: tback] #267123
11/20/13 07:26 AM
11/20/13 07:26 AM
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 382
SE MI / NE IN
rehmbo Offline
enthusiast
rehmbo  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 382
SE MI / NE IN
Thanks Matt. I kinda thought so. Fortunately, I got my revenge and caught him on the next lap.


Jeff R

H18, C2 USA1193
cramsailing.com
crescentsail.com
Re: Rules Question: Room at the Mark (Gate) [Re: rehmbo] #267134
11/20/13 02:20 PM
11/20/13 02:20 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
Carpal Tunnel
waterbug_wpb  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
did blue hit the circle first?


Jay

Re: Rules Question: Room at the Mark (Gate) [Re: waterbug_wpb] #267139
11/20/13 03:35 PM
11/20/13 03:35 PM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,884
Detroit, MI
mbounds Offline
Pooh-Bah
mbounds  Offline
Pooh-Bah

Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,884
Detroit, MI
Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
did blue hit the circle first?

It doesn't matter who gets to the circle first. The boats are overlapped. Starboard (yellow) has the right of way. Inside boat is entitled to mark room.

Yellow is the inside boat if they both go right. Blue is the inside boat if they both go left. If they go to opposite marks, then starboard (yellow) has the right of way.

Re: Rules Question: Room at the Mark (Gate) [Re: tback] #267143
11/20/13 03:49 PM
11/20/13 03:49 PM
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 382
SE MI / NE IN
rehmbo Offline
enthusiast
rehmbo  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 382
SE MI / NE IN
Memories fade, but I'm 95% sure I got the relative boat positions in the animation right, so yes Blue was inside the left gate buoy circle first, although he was on a "proper course" for the right gate buoy.

In my mind, the inside overlap, mark room, and port/starboard rules all could potentially come into play.

Matt's response seems to indicate that:
- Inside overlap was not a factor
- Mark room doesn't apply since he was not on a proper course for the left mark (rule 18.1b)
- Only remaining rules would then be rule 10 (port/starboard) and rule 14 (avoiding contact). I had rights under rule 10, followed 14, and should have protested.



Jeff R

H18, C2 USA1193
cramsailing.com
crescentsail.com

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