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Race Tracking #270016
03/09/14 11:40 AM
03/09/14 11:40 AM
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 382
SE MI / NE IN
rehmbo Offline OP
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rehmbo  Offline OP
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SE MI / NE IN
I've concluded that of my many opportunities for improvement, I'm especially weak on race strategy. The cure, I'm told, is experience: more time on the water. Sounds simple except I live where its a short season, and with 4 kids, family commitments frequently get in the way.

Therefore, I'm looking for a way to get as much value as possible from the beer-can and other semi-formal racing we do over the summer. One learning tool that seems especially valuable is race tracking. One can go back and replay a race and see where gains were made/lost, boat positioning paid off or didn't etc.

I know that Kattack has been used at some major events such as F18 Americas last October. Does someone know if this is an economical/practical solution when scaling to smaller races where only 3-4 competitors are present?

I came across another option called RaceQs. This seems like it might work for even as few as 2 boats, and uses the phone's accelerometers for things like heading, pitch, and roll in addition to usual GPS tracking. I've installed the app and it appears to function as advertised, although I won't have a chance to use it on-water for several months. Any thoughts? Anyone tried it?

Any other solutions out there?


Jeff R

H18, C2 USA1193
cramsailing.com
crescentsail.com
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Race Tracking [Re: rehmbo] #270017
03/09/14 01:01 PM
03/09/14 01:01 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
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South Carolina
You can upload any data from a GPS and overlay them together to make a replay. There are some softwares that will import the data and replay it like GPSActionReplay
http://gpsactionreplay.free.fr/index.php?menu=5

I think you can also do this in Google Earth.


Jake Kohl
Re: Race Tracking [Re: rehmbo] #270018
03/09/14 01:14 PM
03/09/14 01:14 PM
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 774
Greenville SC
bacho Offline
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bacho  Offline
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Greenville SC
If you bought everyone speed pucks I'm sure they'll be happy to let you get the tracks off of them smile

Re: Race Tracking [Re: bacho] #270072
03/10/14 12:06 AM
03/10/14 12:06 AM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 490
catandahalf Offline
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catandahalf  Offline
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Just a thought along the lines of stimulating local club skill levels may be to opt for video coverage. I have taken great scenes as mark set of fleets busting down the offset drag strip for the hoist.

This weekend at FWYC they used a drone, with four blades and a special camera to cover the action in this year's edition of the WetaFest. In Sydney, this past week, a team of commentators shot footage on the beach and on the water of the drama in the 18 footers Championship. They presented the colorful setting, the tactical game, and even did sail shape critiques of the top boats. The on - shore interviews and scenery were nice, but their simple approach to race coverage has turned heads.

By the way, Jim Leonard, from Birmingham Sailing Club and former NACRA 5.2 National Champion overcame Miranda Powerie, from NZ, and our own Mike Krantz, who finished third. Pete Pollard was there, but I did not get to speak with him.

I say your local tribe will enjoy the video approach much more, and if you can find some coach to make comments, that will go a long way to building skill and confidence.

During awards, the yacht club presented photos and aerial coverage of the regatta on their large screen in the background. Just sayin'...

Bert

Last edited by catandahalf; 03/10/14 03:47 PM.
Re: Race Tracking [Re: rehmbo] #270092
03/10/14 05:37 PM
03/10/14 05:37 PM
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 382
SE MI / NE IN
rehmbo Offline OP
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rehmbo  Offline OP
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Joined: Nov 2011
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SE MI / NE IN
Bert- Video is an awesome teaching tool and is super entertaining at the regatta dinners. However, in our case we have limited resources that aren't already sailing or doing RC, so it would be tough to do it right. That's why the virtual replay using smartphones (which everyone owns anyway) as data trackers seems so attractive.

Reason for the post is that I'm sure someone smarter than I has already thought this through and come up with the best solution. Just looking to sponge some knowledge from the collective brain trust. smile


Jeff R

H18, C2 USA1193
cramsailing.com
crescentsail.com
Re: Race Tracking [Re: rehmbo] #270095
03/10/14 07:12 PM
03/10/14 07:12 PM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 490
catandahalf Offline
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catandahalf  Offline
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Turn to Jake for that box of science. I want to do research on that gyro drone that holds position/altitude and image stability in winds up to twenty - five knots, according to the PRO.

Thanks to Alec Thigpen, we have a set of photos which can be sequenced with the Kattack display for our Sea Buoy Race during the 2007 Corsair Trimaran Nationals at Pensacola Yacht Club. Paul Horton, a C 31 sailor from Austin, provided the intel and did the data management. During the GYA Challenge Cup, a year or two later, GYC, Ms provided a screen for the Kattack tracks and one for the photo display. It was cool after racing for the day to view the Kattack tracking for each race and sequenced photos of the mark roundings on a separate, large screen. This was an interclub PHRF sea battle, so the crowd was thirsty (July) and quite large.

You are right; a team of talented and dedicated volunteers is needed to fulfill that ambitious, new component.

Good fortune with your quest,
Bert

Re: Race Tracking [Re: catandahalf] #270097
03/10/14 08:19 PM
03/10/14 08:19 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
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South Carolina
Don't turn to me for drone advice. Craig Van Eaton is you go to guy there!


Jake Kohl
Re: Race Tracking [Re: Jake] #270116
03/11/14 03:32 PM
03/11/14 03:32 PM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 490
catandahalf Offline
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catandahalf  Offline
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Hey Jake - I was referring to you as knowledgeable in tracking, not drones. I will begin researching gyro drones and cameras for deployment for some big regattas. My guess is that by fall, I may have that component to market, if the project has any financial feasibility.

Re: Race Tracking [Re: catandahalf] #270117
03/11/14 03:44 PM
03/11/14 03:44 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
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Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
There is another iphone app - Predictwind "Tracker". You can sign up at the yacht club level and get live tracking off the boats (for those willing to let the app upload data real time). The race can be viewed / broadcast on the line live or reviewed later.

They were farting around with this at my local club and I downloaded the app...I suspect that once they got into the actual fees and process that it was expensive and/or not casual. All I know is that the project got dropped like a wasp infested baked potato. You have to send them emails before you can talk about fees so I didn't dig into it.

http://www.predictwind.com/tracker/


Jake Kohl
Re: Race Tracking [Re: rehmbo] #270128
03/11/14 11:27 PM
03/11/14 11:27 PM
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 186
wildtsail7 Offline
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wildtsail7  Offline
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Jeff,
Yes time on the water is the best thing you can do for speed and handling but unless you are in large fleets or at least competitive fleets you're not going to learn much on tactics.
You may want to spend some time talk to Robbie about strategy and tactics. I learned mostly from competitive dinghy one design fleets such as Vanguard 15s, Lasers, and college sailing. In the absence of that, I would HIGHLY recommend picking up some reading material. I do a lot of Opti coaching and reccommend all my kids at read winning in one designs and later advanced racing tactics.
Dave Perry: Winning in One Designs (this was really my breakthrough when I was younger)
Stuart Walker: Advanced Racing Tactics
Stuart Walker: Tactics of Small Boat Racing
Dave Dellenbaugh: http://www.speedandsmarts.com/
The concepts from dinghies to F18s are very similar. Maybe not as much so in a less maneuverable boat like the Hobie 16 but still very similar.
My reccomendation would be focus on understanding:
-How to read the wind across the course and how to react to it.
-How to place yourself in the right place on the course to best be able to react to the wind.
-Fleet management. There is a lot you can learn on this and this generally takes sailing in big fleets to become instinctive. But constantly be thinking about how to get leverage over the other boats and if you can't gain leverage, make sure you are covering. Maximize gains and minimize losses, easy right?!
-How to place yourself on the course to better react to the wind better than all the other boats but not doing something so extreme you lose coverage on the majority of the fleet.
I'm not saying I'm an expert... but obviously Dalton and I did a pretty spot on job the first day of America's and it was using all the above basic principles. Yea it helped to have speed off the line and making sure we had option to go where we wanted, but we were constantly making small gains almost all the time. I just wish our tracker had been working!

Last edited by wildtsail7; 03/11/14 11:31 PM.
Re: Race Tracking [Re: rehmbo] #270149
03/12/14 02:59 PM
03/12/14 02:59 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
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brucat Offline
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Those books help on H16s as well. H16s are far more maneuverable than many people want to admit, and knowing things like when a shift is big enough to use, how to approach another boat, etc. are just as important as in an Opti. Many H16 sailors mocked Bob Merrick until he figured out how to tack the boat, then blew them away using everything he knew about racing that he learned during his development years on monohulls.

But, what would you know about that, Todd? You gave up on the H16 and immediately shot to the podium in the F18s, right? wink

Mike

PS: Speed and Smarts is supposed to be a secret...

Re: Race Tracking [Re: rehmbo] #270154
03/12/14 07:34 PM
03/12/14 07:34 PM
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 382
SE MI / NE IN
rehmbo Offline OP
enthusiast
rehmbo  Offline OP
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 382
SE MI / NE IN
Thanks guys - I've been doing lots of reading in the great white north (aka Michigan) this winter. Just got 8" more today. WTH? I thought it was middle of March...

Got a subscription to S&S for Christmas (thanks Mom), and am reading (or have read) strategy/tactics books from Melges and Bethwaite. Book knowledge is one thing. Practical application, another. I have gained a much better understanding of positioning and course management, but have yet to really put it to use.

Back to the original topic though, it sounds like nobody has used tracking for smaller fleet races. I can understand - big hassle factor. I'm going to do some more research on RaceQs and see if its a viable solution. If the ice melts in a couple of months, I may be able to give you some feedback.



Jeff R

H18, C2 USA1193
cramsailing.com
crescentsail.com
Re: Race Tracking [Re: rehmbo] #270203
03/13/14 10:20 PM
03/13/14 10:20 PM
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 186
wildtsail7 Offline
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wildtsail7  Offline
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Posts: 186
Jeff, my comments were in response to your opening sentence. I know too many sailors out there that get wrapped up with electronics rather than the important stuff and it drives me nuts!
And to your winter comments, don't be one of those people! I hear enough from Brogger on facebook. We all live in the north and we signed up for it! Go skiing and enjoy! hehe We got a storm last March that had 33", we just had a couple inches today and a couple hours north got 2'. But that's for another thread.
One last comment about the tactics to respond to Mike.
Mike I was saying that these tactics apply to a H16 less than an F18. I know they still apply. But F18s definitely tack and jibe faster and get up to speed faster than a 16.
I never really raced the 16 competitively outside the youth events (including mexico youth worlds) but I have done several decent 16 events in NJ in the last few years and was pretty competitive when I wasn't bored out of my mind in light air. I have a lot of work to do in the F18 too and luckily I've been working as hard as most of the other top teams so I've been growing with them. While my results really haven't changed much at local events, we have been getting a lot faster as a group. But the biggest jump in my sailing was learning all the tactics and general sailing skills that I learned in college and post college dinghy sailing. That really helped my learning curve even though I wasn't a very good dinghy sailor, just being in those type of fleets and being exposed to that helped a lot and we also did a lot of work as a team talking about strategy and tactics.
Jeff, I haven't read the other posts but I wouldn't think Kattack would be that hard to use for small events, we used it in college a few times.

Re: Race Tracking [Re: rehmbo] #270205
03/13/14 11:20 PM
03/13/14 11:20 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
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brucat Offline
Carpal Tunnel
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Posts: 3,969
Thanks for following up, Todd. I really miss racing against you in the H16 fleet up here. It's been great to see your results improve through the years, but I think you would have also improved on the H16 had you stuck with it (and if our racing fleet still existed in New England)...

And I agree, when the snow flies, there are plenty of winter sports. We tend to never be home on weekends, even if we're just out sledding with the kids (bonus for us cheapo catsailors: that's like skiing, except it's free other than for clothing and equipment).

Mike

Re: Race Tracking [Re: rehmbo] #270217
03/14/14 08:15 AM
03/14/14 08:15 AM
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 382
SE MI / NE IN
rehmbo Offline OP
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rehmbo  Offline OP
enthusiast

Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 382
SE MI / NE IN
What, no whining here either? I thought that rule was just for Facebook.

I understand what you mean about focusing too much on the electronics. I've been going old school thus far - I don't even have a compass on the boat yet, and judging from the pricing of the TackTick, Velocitek, and Novasail compasses, its gonna be a while. Anyone have an extra they're willing to part with??

I'll check Kattak again. Seems they have a smartphone app too which eliminates (or at least reduces) the need for special hardware.



Jeff R

H18, C2 USA1193
cramsailing.com
crescentsail.com
Re: Race Tracking [Re: rehmbo] #270221
03/14/14 10:23 AM
03/14/14 10:23 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
Carpal Tunnel
waterbug_wpb  Offline
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Naples, FL
i've had good success recently with a handheld compass to estimate my laylines. but I don't have my hands as full nearly as much as on the 18


Jay


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