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Re: I don't get it. [Re: bacho] #271067
04/02/14 08:18 PM
04/02/14 08:18 PM
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Hillsborough, NC USA
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Originally Posted by bacho
Of course you would, those damn isotopes make everyone look silly on a light air lake day.

How much wind do you need?

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: I don't get it. [Re: ] #271072
04/03/14 06:59 AM
04/03/14 06:59 AM
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Fort Myers/Cape Coral, FL
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As a new person, I find comments like me, me, me to be unproductive for the future of the sport. In Daves defense, when I reached out to him about getting HCA points status for Kelley Park River Regatta he was more than happy to help out.

His assistance we very much needed, Im trying to get a Hobie Division back off the ground, and he is trying to get visibility, attendance, and recognition for a Regatta he works hard to support.

We are working together for mutual survival. This is critical for both of us.

I did not take his comments as me, me, me. We all have our reasons for being in the sport, and we need to work together to understand what those reasons are and how the all come together the best.

I commented on this post in the beginning because it was surprisingly a free of attacks on one another. And I found it to be productive to all our issues. Its not often that there is a good discussion amongst Hobie HCA representatives and other non Hobie sailors. This post also appears to be the first post where there is constructive attempt to discuss the future, and not dwell on the Hobie edict past.

Ive been reading Catsailor forums ever since I got into sailing a couple of years ago, but have been hesitant to contribute due to all the negativity and attacks. Please understand, that has been hurting the sport also, and keeps others on the side. I have sometimes thought that Catsailor is going to die a slow death, as all the grumpy old men die off.

It does not have to be that way.

I still believe our to largest issues are:

--Not enough sailors, so what can we do to grow the sport
--Too many different boats, which dilutes the fleets especially with limited sailors to sail them.

Fred
HCA Division 8 Chair


2014 Hobie 16
1995 Hobie 16
Re: I don't get it. [Re: brucat] #271074
04/03/14 07:11 AM
04/03/14 07:11 AM
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Well said Fred. I share your observations.

OK, now that we've all had our fill of crumpets, and about 24 hours to reflect, what are your thoughts on this?

Originally Posted by brucat
More outside-the-box thinking here, brace yourself and try to digest before shooting it down...

Would it be helpful to have a national umbrella organization (cough, cough... USSA MRC) serve as the "5 families"?

What I see is a national situation extremely similar to what we had/have in the northeast. There was a time when all the classes worked well together (in terms of scheduling and hosting regattas), under the umbrella of HCA Division 12 and the Hobie fleet structure.

Yes, that caused issues (non-Hobie sailors using the Hobie name, etc.), and yes, I was a staunch supporter of the edict about 5 years before it happened. However, by the time of the edict, it was too late to help us, and had the opposite effect: it effectively killed all organized racing for Hobie sailors in New England.

I am NOT trying to stir this up. People acted with nothing but the best intentions, and there are large parts of the country where this is perfectly fine. And, I totally agree that HCC and HCA (and any other class and manufacturer) have every right to spend their money and energy as they deem appropriate.

But, I think we can (and should) have an umbrella organization that can allow us to work together more formally, and complementing the efforts of the classes without crossing boundaries of how the classes do their jobs.

This would also give a new purpose for Area reps, now that the qualifiers are gone. They would serve as the regional leaders to set up meetings, coordinate communications, etc. Maybe we could even come up with US Sailing area multihull championships/festivals (a title and concept to enhance existing regattas, not necessarily new events).

EDIT: Yes, this could be done as NAMSA. But, there are a lot of good reasons to do this under US Sailing. We have a recognized body, with an approved regulation, with the purpose of providing a "forum" for sailors and manufacturers to work together. It's already there, waiting for us to transform how we organize ourselves...

It's April 2 (this is not a prank)...

Mike


We will be having our spring MRC teleconference later this month, always looking for volunteers...

Mike

Re: I don't get it. [Re: ] #271138
04/04/14 07:25 AM
04/04/14 07:25 AM
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Hearing no opposition, I'll add this to the agenda for the spring meeting.

Mike

Re: I don't get it. [Re: ] #271139
04/04/14 07:31 AM
04/04/14 07:31 AM
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Greenville SC
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I don't think it's required.

Re: I don't get it. [Re: ] #271141
04/04/14 08:18 AM
04/04/14 08:18 AM
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Could you be less specific???

I think we all agreed that more cooperation and communication between classes, clubs and events can only help us. I am simply proposing a way to facilitate this.

No one would be "required" to participate, but if it works, everyone will want to. This model was extremely effective in New England (formerly DBA HCA Division 12).

Mike

Re: I don't get it. [Re: ] #271145
04/04/14 08:41 AM
04/04/14 08:41 AM
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Greenville SC
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I think we regionally organized pretty well. It doesn't seem to me that a great number of sailors in our region will leave our region to go to regattas in areas that might not communicate fully with our region. We already have several calendars with most of the nations regattas on it. So it seems to me were adding a step to communicate at a national level, I see it as another step in the process with limited benefits. But that's just my opinion.

Re: I don't get it. [Re: brucat] #271147
04/04/14 09:04 AM
04/04/14 09:04 AM
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South Carolina
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Originally Posted by brucat
...

But, I think we can (and should) have an umbrella organization that can allow us to work together more formally, and complementing the efforts of the classes without crossing boundaries of how the classes do their jobs.

This would also give a new purpose for Area reps, now that the qualifiers are gone. They would serve as the regional leaders to set up meetings, coordinate communications, etc. Maybe we could even come up with US Sailing area multihull championships/festivals (a title and concept to enhance existing regattas, not necessarily new events).

EDIT: Yes, this could be done as NAMSA. But, there are a lot of good reasons to do this under US Sailing. We have a recognized body, with an approved regulation, with the purpose of providing a "forum" for sailors and manufacturers to work together. It's already there, waiting for us to transform how we organize ourselves...

It's April 2 (this is not a prank)...

Mike


If, and this is a big one, if you can get the right people from the classes together with a unified objective of "what can we do to grow the sport" I think something like this could have some benefit. The schedule is one thing but it's not everything. I'm slow to comment on this post because I'm not 100% sure whether my own cynicism is derived from past experience or something more grounded in reality. However, I feel like the classes aren't at the point yet where they are genuinely interested in the betterment of our sport over their own unique interests. It's going to take a bit more panic to get to that point.

For example, a growing group of A-cat sailors in our area are separating further from our events and supporting them less and less...if it weren't for one sailor in that group tugging (shoving) them in that direction we (EMSA) would probably never see them again. They like to race on their own, are going to lengths to attend exclusive regattas at the expense of our area events, and are scheduling their own exclusive regattas. I'm not going to sit here and say they're doing anything "wrong" but they're not helping our local sport and I think they're doing themselves a disservice by being less visible (for example, we had a newbie come to our last event interested in learning more about a-cats but there was only one of them in attendance). In other words, if you forget where you came from, there will be nobody new to replace you. We repeat this again and again.

In this regard, we're up against human nature and I'm torn between finding fault with that group's exclusivity or admiring their ability to do what they want to do. Dave McGrumpypants showed it a little earlier in this thread and I know exactly where he's coming from. I don't have as much time to sail as I wish I did and when do, I want to do it as often as possible in the manner that I enjoy the most (which is on an F18 with my best friend in big breeze, flat water, and equal competition all around me). Meanwhile, also like the Dave I know, I feel a need to help on the community side of things and I find a personal balance between helping our sport and satisfying my own wishes.

I guess my point is, the USMHC is the place for all of the classes to join and start working together. Nobody else has anything close on a national level to that forum. I think the point should be a joint task force to find ways to help grow our sport... maybe the schedule is a place to get started on this and it might lead to other more beneficial ideas. Cynical me isn't sure that the classes are ready to REALLY make any kind of sacrifice of their own desires toward this goal (or what those sacrifices might be) but I don't necessarily know that it's the case.


Jake Kohl
Re: I don't get it. [Re: ] #271149
04/04/14 09:31 AM
04/04/14 09:31 AM
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Thanks Jake. I fully agree with your view, and you did a great job of articulating what I meant in an earlier post about working together not necessarily being "popular."

The biggest hurdle is probably going to be getting the balance right between this 5-families approach being a help or hindrance.

I can only go off of personal experience here, with the NE example that I gave. Did this solve all schedule conflicts? Absolutely not, but at least people made more informed, risk-based decisions when scheduling events on top of one another. Healthy organizations will respect the difficult choices that their constituents make, but it helps when they're all part of the process, or at least have the info (and rationale) well in advance.

EDIT: While this would be under the national umbrella organization, the intent is for the bulk of the effort to happen regionally. Where regions meet, there can (and should) be further discussion, but there is no intent here to add more national bureaucracy. Honestly, there is no intent to add bureaucracy at all, this is truly intended to help.

Mike

Last edited by brucat; 04/04/14 09:41 AM.
Re: I don't get it. [Re: brucat] #271153
04/04/14 10:09 AM
04/04/14 10:09 AM
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Naples, FL
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so why do you think the regional A-cat fleet is distancing themselves from EMSA events? Do they have different needs than the rest of the multihulls attending?

From what little I know of the A-cat fleet, they use similar W/L courses, and while they don't have a spin, they are certainly similar in performance to some (but not all) other fleets. Their boat logistics (setup, trailer, etc) are similar, so the beach/launch areas would be similar as well

Having their own start seems logical, but I suspect that's still not enough to keep their interest in non-exclusive events?

Conversely, is the A-cat fleet using better venues than some of the established EMSA sites? Would they welcome non-A-catters to some of their regattas if there were RC/PRO assistance from those non-a-cat fleets?


Jay

Re: I don't get it. [Re: waterbug_wpb] #271155
04/04/14 10:21 AM
04/04/14 10:21 AM
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Greenville SC
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Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
so why do you think the regional A-cat fleet is distancing themselves from EMSA events? Do they have different needs than the rest of the multihulls attending?

From what little I know of the A-cat fleet, they use similar W/L courses, and while they don't have a spin, they are certainly similar in performance to some (but not all) other fleets. Their boat logistics (setup, trailer, etc) are similar, so the beach/launch areas would be similar as well

Having their own start seems logical, but I suspect that's still not enough to keep their interest in non-exclusive events?

Conversely, is the A-cat fleet using better venues than some of the established EMSA sites? Would they welcome non-A-catters to some of their regattas if there were RC/PRO assistance from those non-a-cat fleets?



It should be pointed out that they have 6-7 boats on one trailer so they establish a fleet anywhere they go. That allows them to travel more easily on pooled resources. Because of that I'm sure they don't have much interest in racing anyone on handicap. So they will travel more to seek better A class racing

Re: I don't get it. [Re: waterbug_wpb] #271156
04/04/14 10:23 AM
04/04/14 10:23 AM
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South Carolina
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Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
so why do you think the regional A-cat fleet is distancing themselves from EMSA events? Do they have different needs than the rest of the multihulls attending?

From what little I know of the A-cat fleet, they use similar W/L courses, and while they don't have a spin, they are certainly similar in performance to some (but not all) other fleets. Their boat logistics (setup, trailer, etc) are similar, so the beach/launch areas would be similar as well

Having their own start seems logical, but I suspect that's still not enough to keep their interest in non-exclusive events?

Conversely, is the A-cat fleet using better venues than some of the established EMSA sites? Would they welcome non-A-catters to some of their regattas if there were RC/PRO assistance from those non-a-cat fleets?


I think it's pretty simple. They all live in close proximity to each other and are at the same club. Given a choice, they would rather focus on racing OD and not have other boats on the course. It's not about starts or facilities or anything like that.

The last couple of combined events we had, I heard some comments (although innocent) about our F18 approaching A-mark within their fleet and watching us put up our kite, create a wind shadow (even though it wasn't for long!), and be gone...so I guess it's me. smirk


Jake Kohl
Re: I don't get it. [Re: bacho] #271158
04/04/14 10:35 AM
04/04/14 10:35 AM
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The issue is the amount of oxygen in the room for national regattas COUPLED with the needs of historic OA's that host events.

If you leave this schedule decision up to the OD classes... who can bring 30 boats to an event (A class and F18s and Hobie 16s) Each class is able to find a good OA to run their event(s). The second feature is the OD class May see value in moving the big events around the region or country. Final point, from the ONE design class's point of view NOTHING is gained by sharing the race course with another class. The A class probably looks at this as a negative to share the race course (Collisions always work out badly for an A class... it sucks to see the non A class boat survive .... Its human nature to believe that the other SOB just doesn't care enough then) From the One Design Class point of view... We Have no Problem here with the status quo.

From the one design Sailor point of view... They also don't have a problem... their class has right sized the national schedule for them. For example, the F18s seem to want to do ONE mid winter event (Jan or Feb)... They LIKE events that are strictly their class... Most of the sailors don't have strong opinions about sharing the race course tho... So... something like Tradewinds works out for them. Alternatively, they could decide that the class is better served racing at Key West to show off to the world press (yes its not practical)... Tradewinds would then be a second tier event for them. If they are traveling a distance.. they will pick their class one design regatta, The national sailors don't have a problem with the status quo.... the Regional sailors are disapointed that their 2nd tier event does not get big support.

The national sailors look at the second tier of events that are trying to pull them in (those in the pre season of March and April) as maybe... but probably not in their plans because of ... time and money limits.

So, the PROBLEM exists for the OAs like Spring Fever, Davis Island and Hobie MWE, they need turnout to run the event at their historic levels. ... Spring Fever thought they would have 75 boats... and were on track for less then 50 AND they don't exactly know why. A class got a turnout at Davis Island last week... Hobie MWE is running a Classic Hobie 16, 17 and 18 event. Spring Fever is gone.

I would look at the problem and say.. Winter events are Jan and Feb... In the keys... The One design class leaders can hash it out with the OA for what their class wants... The A class left Tradewinds and set up their own event because it worked better for them. If you want changes in tradewinds... speak with Rick.

March and April are usually primo sailing times in Florida and the South, GA and MISS but are pre season for most of the country. Events like Spring Fever, and the A class Davis Island and Hobie MWE are going to be on sailors second tier. They need 90% turnout from their regional racers to have a hope of being successful ... and then a few sailors who travel nationally. They have to get the expectations in line and right size the event.

The conversation that needs to be had is between Spring Fever, HWME (Hobie) and Davis Island (A class) OAs ... AND the Class OD leaders of Hobie 16s, F18s, A class... AND the class leaders of the local classes (F16s in GA). The dates matter here... Since Spring Fever is constrained to EASTER which moves... can the other OA's be flexible with dates and does that make a difference to how many sailors are available for the three OAs.. This is one conversation that needs to happen sooner rather then later and it is one phone meeting with the principles... (who have to want to solve the meta level problem.)

Of course... it seems to me that the US cat scene actually needs ONE big euro style regatta. Spin double handed.
Single handed. Classic sloop.... Classic big sloop. As Eric noted... he has no reason to travel in his small one design Isotope class... UNLESS he gets to race new people in other classes. The ONLY WAY this event is successful is for the major One design classes to support it.

Would it be interesting to have ONE US Regatta where 10 F18s, 10 Olympic 17s, 10 F16s, 10 Nacra 20s, 5 (CFR 20s, Marstrom 20s, Nacra carbon 20s, Flying phantoms,and the odd C class) who pre registered and showed up for a three day regatta of buoys and medium distance racing? 40 to 45 boats on the starting line?

Would the Hobie 16 leaders promote an event of 15 Hobie 16s, 10 Hobie 18s, 10 (Prindle 16s, 18s, Nacra 5.2s 5.0s Mystere 5.Os and 4.3s ) and 10 Isotopes. 45 boats on the line..

If I were king... I would set it up as the Olympic Support regatta so every boat kicked in a few bucks to support the Junior Olympic development team. All beach cat racers have a stake in supporting this effort.

It takes a meeting of the class presidents, regional fleet leaders and the OAs who could pull this off.
Has it ever been done... Yes... Multihull magazine ran the Newport Multihull cat fest years ago... Spring Fever did a little bit of it for two years.

Again... the one design class leaders have to decide that such an event is valuable to the sport and their sailors.

So... two steps..... Divide up the oxygen in the room between the OA's and the One Design Classes in the pre season.. (March and April)

Step two... Is their any value to a Single euro style regatta during this pre season period. I recognize... that while it may be pre season for the northern sailors... the southern sailors are in the begining of their seasons... so... they absolutely have to take the lead and give up something on their schedule to make it happen.

Final point... the distance races are attempting to restart... so.... you have to keep those OA's and sailors in mind as well. (hint.. invite them to the phone meet up)

Last edited by Mark Schneider; 04/04/14 10:41 AM.

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Re: I don't get it. [Re: Mark Schneider] #271159
04/04/14 11:06 AM
04/04/14 11:06 AM
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Naples, FL
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"it seems to me that the US cat scene actually needs ONE big euro style regatta. Spin double handed.
Single handed. Classic sloop.... Classic big sloop."

My opinion: - T-winds in the Keys seemed similar in that respect. I'd never seen a Shark sailing at other events I sailed.

Could the Islander handle that kind of attendance?


Jay

Re: I don't get it. [Re: waterbug_wpb] #271160
04/04/14 11:14 AM
04/04/14 11:14 AM
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that was the Shark midwinters.. a one design shark event. They are just like the isotopes.....why travel... no Sharks in Miami (speaking lfiguratively of course)? They wanted a nice winter venue... so they went to Tradewinds.... they could probably go to a lot of other locations.

I would probably let Tradewinds be actual mid winters for classes that choose to label it as such....EG... Hobie has branding issues with sponsors... so while it may SERVE as an actual midwinter one design event... it can't be called such.

In my model of this event... the Sharks would be the fast boat in the Classic small boat fleet along with Prindle 18s and N 5.2s supercat 17s etc.... If a hobie 16 is in front of you... you loose.


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: I don't get it. [Re: ] #271161
04/04/14 11:24 AM
04/04/14 11:24 AM
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...you mean WHEN a Hobie 16 is in front, right? wink

Mike

Re: I don't get it. [Re: waterbug_wpb] #271166
04/04/14 06:01 PM
04/04/14 06:01 PM
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Dunedin Causeway, FL
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A Shark sailed (and took 2nd place corrected) in last year's Statue of Liberty Race (Sandy Hook Bay Catamaran Club, NJ).

Re: I don't get it. [Re: Mark Schneider] #271170
04/04/14 10:04 PM
04/04/14 10:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
that was the Shark midwinters.. a one design shark event. They are just like the isotopes.....why travel... no Sharks in Miami (speaking lfiguratively of course)? They wanted a nice winter venue... so they went to Tradewinds.... they could probably go to a lot of other locations.

I would probably let Tradewinds be actual mid winters for classes that choose to label it as such....EG... Hobie has branding issues with sponsors... so while it may SERVE as an actual midwinter one design event... it can't be called such.

In my model of this event... the Sharks would be the fast boat in the Classic small boat fleet along with Prindle 18s and N 5.2s supercat 17s etc.... If a hobie 16 is in front of you... you loose.


Sharks race at Tradewinds also, he wasn't seeing things.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

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Re: I don't get it. [Re: Jake] #271198
04/06/14 08:16 PM
04/06/14 08:16 PM
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Hillsborough, NC USA
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Originally Posted by Jake
If, and this is a big one, if you can get the right people from the classes together with a unified objective of "what can we do to grow the sport" I think something like this could have some benefit. The schedule is one thing but it's not everything. I'm slow to comment on this post because I'm not 100% sure whether my own cynicism is derived from past experience or something more grounded in reality. However, I feel like the classes aren't at the point yet where they are genuinely interested in the betterment of our sport over their own unique interests.


Jake,

Very well said. If the players truly have the goal of growing the sport, then this effort might succeed. If they pursue their individual interests, however, it will not. I would like to hope for the first, but have seen too much of the second to believe it.

Here's a case in point. I regularly race with two clubs. At one, there has been a small fleet of Isotopes, along with one or two H-16's, one H-14, and occasionally one other cat. The Isotopes requested that the club race all the catamarans together in one "multihull handicap" class, just to give the other boats someone to race against. We've been doing that for 3 or 4 years now.

At the other club, the Isotope fleet is much bigger. We race one-design, but still ask the club to start the lone Prindle 18-2 with us so he has someone to sail with. He gets scored separately (and wins all his races). Now, the commodore of this club just sent out an email saying that the local Hobie fleet (formerly defunct) is trying to reorganize. They have perhaps 10 mixed H-16s and H-18s that want to race. The club is planning to create a "Hobie" fleet for them. They will race against each other on portsmouth handicap separate from the multihull handicap fleet. In other words, the Hobie 16s and 18s are willing to race each other on handicap, but not the Prindle. I think that's precisely the attitude that will kill any effort to grow catamaran racing on the whole. It's the "Hobie Edict" all over again.

There are good reasons to race one-design, and good reasons to race handicap. Each has it's place. They are different ways to play the game and I enjoy both. Proponents of each, however, need to recognize and support the other's wants. We can't afford to leave anybody out. Unless we are all prepared to attend an occasional event to help other classes, we have no right to expect support for our own.

Regards,
Eric

Re: I don't get it. [Re: Isotope235] #271199
04/06/14 09:22 PM
04/06/14 09:22 PM
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Mark Schneider  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Ah... Reciprocity... those were the good ol days!

Back Back Back in the day... Yacht Clubs were exclusive monolithic organizations... they did not extend racing privileges to other clubs... They were excellent capitalists (not going to give away racing privleges) .. All of the WASPs... in the club to the right... All of the working men in the club to the left... ETC. Yachting was a gentleman's sport and it reflected the times... Eventually, YRA's were born to foster the Reciprocity between Yacht Clubs. OMG... it was commutarian but it carried the day. Racing was open to members of the YRA member clubs. Still for "elite" Yacht Clubs... the most they would do was to open up the racing circuit... BUT only grant reciprocity privileges to their exclusive peer YCs. (We can meet on the battlefield but not in our clubhouse). Evolution changed the looks of the American Yacht Club and racing scene.

It would seem that we have a bit more RE evolution needed in the catamaran world. But as with all evolutionary process... the risk is EXTINCTION.

What gets overlooked in the theory of evolution... is the need to BREED to pass on the good genes... Take a look around.... Most of the fleets breeding days are OVER... So... you can continue trying to EAT the other classes in a survival of the fit competition... however... you are a day late and a dollar short in the evolution game.... the certain end result is extinction.


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