Of course, Rule 18 does not change which boat has right-of-way (although it used to). My entire purpose for starting this thread was to encourage people to view the rules in terms of obligations rather than rights.

When Rule 18 obligates a boat to give another boat mark-room, it does not, nor does the definition of "mark-room" impose any additional obligations on the boat entitled to mark-room. "Mark-room" is a burden placed solely on one boat.

A boat entitled to mark-room may freely sail outside of that mark-room without breaking any rule. She simply is not protected by rule 21 if she does so.

In previous posts, you said:

1. "In both cases, you are obligated to tack and round the mark",
2. "If you're entitled to mark-room over an outside/leeward boat, you can't sail away from the mark just for strategic reasons",
3. "it's the inside boat that is entitled to mark room, and is therefore limited per the definition of mark room",
4. "I could buy that the inside boat can slow down but not tack within the reasonable space considered as mark room, but I don't think they can continue on past the mark room space", and
5. "At some point, mark room ends, and the leeward boat can head the windward to up beyond head to wind".

If you aren't arguing that W is obligated to tack, what are you arguing for?

My argument is pretty simple.

In terms of obligations: An outside boat is not obligated to allow an inside boat to sail her off the course. Nothing said here by you or Matt has convinced me otherwise.

I will agree that unless L luffs to force the tack (and keeps clear, etc.), they can sail away and W isn't "obligated to tack." But, L is not obligated to allow this to happen once the point of reasonable mark room has passed.

Mike

EDIT: In my head, this is simple. Thanks for pushing me to clarify here.

Kinda like what Jimmy did to Deano last year at Mark 1, then the next race Deano did to Jimmy.

I can remember at N20 Nationals in Pensacola several years back Boog driving Alex/Nigel all the way to a pier on the shore. Nigel was soooo pissed.

Mike,

That might seem right to you, but it simply isn't what the rulebook says.

Sorry,
Eric
US SAILING Certified Judge
Chair, SAYRA Appeals Committee

I disagree. I'll try to come up with a diagram.

What rule would keep L from doing exactly what I describe above?

Mike

13

The leeward boat cannot "force" another boat to tack. If I'm the weather boat, I'm not going above head to wind. If I keep clear until you are head to wind, I've satisfied the requirements of rule 11. If there is contact after that, then you've gone past head to wind (and thus subject to 13) - and you're out.

No, Rule 13 restricts tacking. I'm saying that under rule 11 and 16.1, L can luff W such that W has to tack to keep clear, then L can tack and sail to the mark. I contend that per the definition of mark room and Cases 21 and 103, mark room is a finite (condition-based) entity, and L is free to perform this maneuver as soon as W has passed that point.

I'm not talking about any contact, so let's keep that off the table.

Mike

You can't find it in the rules, cases, or appeals because it doesn't exist. "Luffing rights" is a term that, like "mast abeam" has been obsolete for over 15 years.


I don't know - are you?

Mike, surely with your background in match race umpiring you must be well aware that one boat can sometimes control another -- even if the other boat has right-of-way. A boat behind and to weather, or a boat overlapped to windward can prevent the other boat from tacking. That is a fundamental part of pre-start maneuvering in match racing (and this is one instance where the match racing and fleet racing rules coincide).

As said several times already, this is about rule 13. Mark-room has nothing to do with it. Mark-room imposes no special obligation to tack, nor gives any special exemptions from the obligations of rule 13.

Read rule 18.1(a), 18.2(b), 18.2(c), the definition of mark-room, and rules 11, 12, and 13 again. Then take another look at ISAF Case 15. You'll see that the windward boat can prevent the leeward boat's tack because of rule 13. It doesn't matter if L has right-of-way due to rule 12 or rule 11. If the boats were overlapped, the outcome would be unchanged. You should also see that rule 18 and mark-room have no bearing on the matter. It doesn't matter which boat owes the other one mark-room (or indeed, if neither one does). It's simply the case that L cannot pass head-to-wind and keep clear of W as required by rule 13.

You're reading more into "mark-room" than exists in the rules.

Regards,
Eric

If L turns head-to-wind (but not beyond) in such a manner that W cannot keep clear by also turning head-to-wind (but not beyond) in a seamanlike way, then L breaks rule 16.1.

Provided she complies with RRS 18.2(b), RRS 17 (if applicable) and RRS 16.1, L may turn head-to-wind. W must respond and keep clear per RRS 11 (or 12, whichever is applicable), but W is not under any obligation to tack, and L cannot compel her to.

I think we've beaten this topic to death, and I'm certainly tired of repeating myself so please, if you still think that a boat is required to tack at a mark, quote the rule that says so.

Regards,
Eric

I'm really just having an issue with the idea that you and Matt stated that mark room entitles a windward boat to travel well off the course.

Mike

Well then you need to go back and reread our posts. We've both said from the beginning that mark-room has nothing to do with it - just rule 13. It isn't about "entitlement", it's about "obligations".

And, for (at least) the seventh time, please quote the rule that prohibits a windward boat from doing so. When I refer to an obligation under the rules, I cite the rule number and, if necessary, quote the rule text. Now it's your turn.

I'll give you a hint. The only rule that requires a boat to tack is RRS 20.2(d), and it has nothing at all to do with the scenario presented here.

Already did that...



I admitted a few posts back that "obligated to tack" wasn't correct.

Mike

I live diagram would go a long way here. I understand this, but I can imagine where it can be confusing when reading the whole thread. Let me ask this a different way and maybe Mike sees it from a different perspective.

Rule 13 states "During that time rules 10, 11 and 12 do not apply."

also that "If two boats are subject to this rule at the same time, the one on the other’s port side or the one astern shall keep clear."

So when does Rule 11 and 12 reapply?

When one or both boats reach a close-hauled course.

Let's ask it a different way: when does 13 apply?

I contend that L can luff to the moon, without tacking, while keeping clear. The only rules that apply are 11 and 16.1. 13 doesn't apply until L crosses head-to-wind, correct? If that's true, L can luff, W would likely tack away, then L can tack and follow.

This all started as a discussion about mark-room. L can't do the above maneuver while she owes mark-room to W. However, that is a finite area, and L is free to luff as soon as W passes the point where luffing would put W into the mark or prevent W from tacking to round the mark as the inside boat.

Mike

OK, I've re-read this. I think we're saying the same thing for the case at hand. Other than my incorrect statement about "obligated to tack" which seems to have derailed into the Case 15 /Rule 13 issue, which does not apply to the original case in this thread in any way.

BTW, I'm posting this as I pack the RV for a regatta this weekend (Roton Point). Hope you all get a chance to be on the water this weekend!

Mike

Mike,

It sounds like we're in violent agreement after all. Good luck at Roton Point.

Regards,
Eric

Two minutes in person with boat models, and I'm sure we would have been there days ago...

Mike

and both of the boats in question would lose out to the fleet which parades to the mark while they're forcing the issue on each other

Great if you're trying to pin a boat to secure an overall points lead. Sucks if you're doing it just to prove a point.

Great if you're in a serious fleet (semi-pro or pro) for big prize
Sucks if your a weekender taking things waaay too seriously

But, thanks to this discussion I've spent more time with the RRS than I had in the past year...

it's like sitting in a protest room.... without having to endure the protest room.

And no one called anyone else a profanity...

Don't forget the case books and appeals! Those books are priceless to round out your knowledge of the rules, you can also learn some good plays from them. It also helps a lot if you can employ a case/appeal during a protest.

You're absolutely right about the practicality of some of these tactics, which was a thought running through my mind during the entire discussion, but doesn't change the rules or obligations. Even if a boat in a controlling position is being penny wise and pound foolish (losing the fleet), you need to know what to do to avoid fouling her.

And, Matt's probably been in the last-race, match-race within a fleet race position more than most folks here.

Mike