Announcements
New Discussions
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Hop To
Page 3 of 3 1 2 3
Re: Cheating or Gamesmanship [Re: Mark Schneider] #278991
05/12/15 11:08 PM
05/12/15 11:08 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,049
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Timbo  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,049
Sebring, Florida.
Pretty much, yeah. Even the receivers play with their balls. Wess Welker was traded to DEN because he kept dropping his balls... cost them a Super Bowl. I guess Tom's balls weren't soft enough for him!


Blade F16
#777
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Cheating or Gamesmanship [Re: Mark Schneider] #278992
05/12/15 11:10 PM
05/12/15 11:10 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,049
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Timbo  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,049
Sebring, Florida.
I just heard Brady's suspension may be reduced, if he actually commits a crime!

He will be appealing, but... when has Tom Brady -not- been appealing?


Blade F16
#777
Re: Cheating or Gamesmanship [Re: Timbo] #278995
05/13/15 07:58 AM
05/13/15 07:58 AM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,658
Florida Suncoast, Dunedin Caus...
catman Offline
Pooh-Bah
catman  Offline
Pooh-Bah

Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,658
Florida Suncoast, Dunedin Caus...
Here's the report. I have not read the whole thing but read page 4 paragraph 6 and on for a bit.

Well's Report


Have Fun
Re: Cheating or Gamesmanship [Re: Mark Schneider] #278996
05/13/15 08:41 AM
05/13/15 08:41 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
Carpal Tunnel
waterbug_wpb  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
I certainly don't remember taking an oath to honor all traffic law.


The Florida driver license handbook kinda-sorta says I will obey all traffic rules.

Your license must be REVOKED if you are found guilty of, or department records show:
• Driving while under the influence of alcohol, drugs or other controlled substances.
• A felony in which a motor vehicle is used.
• Not stopping to give help when the vehicle you are driving is involved in a crash causing death or personal injury.
• Lying about the ownership or operation of motor vehicles.
• Three cases of reckless driving within one year. Forfeiting bail and not going to court to avoid being convicted of reckless driving counts the same as a conviction.
• An immoral act in which a motor vehicle was used.
• Three major offenses or 15 offenses for which you receive points within a 5-year period.
• A felony for drug possession.
• Vision worse than the standard
minimum requirements.


Funny they mention that "immoral" thing again... Did we establish that speeding was immoral or not? Was the moral high ground following rules established by regulatory authorities?

Now, the state statutes go on to say:
(2) REQUIRED OBEDIENCE TO TRAFFIC LAWS.—It is unlawful for any person to do any act forbidden, or to fail to perform any act required, in this chapter. It is unlawful for the owner, or any other person employing or otherwise directing the driver of any vehicle, to require or knowingly permit the operation of such vehicle upon a highway in any manner contrary to law. A violation of this subsection is a noncriminal traffic infraction, punishable as a moving violation as provided in chapter 318.

And you have to sign an agreement to this effect in order to get your driver license. I don't recall if this is the same as swearing an oath (I'm not an attorney anyway)?


How about pumping out my holding tank in a "no discharge zone"? If I don't get caught, is it 'moral'?


Jay

Re: Cheating or Gamesmanship [Re: Mark Schneider] #278997
05/13/15 09:43 AM
05/13/15 09:43 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
Carpal Tunnel
waterbug_wpb  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
On your earlier mention of a port-starboard cross...

Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
me?... no... have I seen this on the course?.. yes. Have I screwed up and misjudged?... absolutely! Why did I get so close to a foul in the first place?... because I get sucked into the mindset of competing.... push the line...


If you were on port and crossed starboard but you CLEARLY saw that they DID have to alter their course to avoid hitting you, but did NOT yell "protest" or say anything directly to you, would you still do your penalty turn?

Let's say it was a Noob sailing who wasn't 100% sure they were in the right during this crossing maneuver...

Would this be considered "cheating" (breaking a RRS guideline) or "gamesmanship" (taking advantage of another sailor's lack of knowledge)?


Jay

Re: Cheating or Gamesmanship [Re: waterbug_wpb] #278999
05/13/15 10:51 AM
05/13/15 10:51 AM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 807
Hillsborough, NC USA
I
Isotope235 Offline
old hand
Isotope235  Offline
old hand
I

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 807
Hillsborough, NC USA
Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
If you were on port and crossed starboard but you CLEARLY saw that they DID have to alter their course to avoid hitting you, but did NOT yell "protest" or say anything directly to you, would you still do your penalty turn?

Let's say it was a Noob sailing who wasn't 100% sure they were in the right during this crossing maneuver...

Would this be considered "cheating" (breaking a RRS guideline) or "gamesmanship" (taking advantage of another sailor's lack of knowledge)?

Yes, I would do my penalty turn.

The Racing Rules of Sailing are rules, not "guidelines". Take a look at the Basic Principle of Sportsmanship and the Rules, which states: "Competitors in the sport of sailing are governed by a body of rules that they are expected to follow and enforce. A fundamental principle of sportsmanship is that when competitors break a rule they will promptly take a penalty, which may be to retire".

Also see RRS 2 - Fair Sailing which states "A boat and her owner shall compete in compliance with recognized principles of sportsmanship and fair play".

If you knowingly break a rule but do not take a penalty, then you break Rule 2 - whether or not any other boat protests.

Eric Rasmussen
US Sailing Judge
Chair, SAYRA Appeals Committee

Re: Cheating or Gamesmanship [Re: catman] #279001
05/13/15 11:16 AM
05/13/15 11:16 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,049
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Timbo  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,049
Sebring, Florida.
Originally Posted by catman
Here's the report. I have not read the whole thing but read page 4 paragraph 6 and on for a bit.

Well's Report


Wow, reading those texts between the two equipment managers was pretty eye opening!

Sounds like the guy doing the deflating HATES Brady!

He said he was going to blow the balls up like water melons and Rugby balls! Too funny!

"And I want some kix, size 11 1/2, and I want two autographed balls, and I want..." That's the guy who should be getting fired!


Blade F16
#777
Re: Cheating or Gamesmanship [Re: Isotope235] #279004
05/13/15 01:23 PM
05/13/15 01:23 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
Mark Schneider  Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Quote
If you knowingly break a rule but do not take a penalty, then you break Rule 2 - whether or not any other boat protests.

Two thoughts... You obey/follow the rules AND you can also honor the rules... "honor the rules" means impeccable compliance with the letter and spirit of the rules.

No matter how you view the rules... in sailing, you call your own foul on yourself. Rule 2 is a way of putting the notion of Honor explicitly in place.

Tacking too close is one of those wind, wave, skill of the fleet things..... If you are in an olympic fleet.... your margins are close... if you are on port and a newbie is on starboard... you can't play the game the same way... your perfectly executed lee bow move may cause starbord to change course and hail protest. If you are obeying the rules.. you probably wind up in the protest room trying to persuade a jury... if you honor the rule..... you handle the situation very differently.

Hobie cats wrote this into their class rules about equipment by saying... If its not spelled out in the class rule.. its not legal... (don't go looking for loopholes) aka honor the letter and spirit of the class rules.

IMO, we call racers who don't take their penalties cheaters.

Football... does not have this honor notion.... They have rules and referees who enforce the rules.... If you don't get caught... gamesmanship! ... Brady broke a rule and gets fined. He is not cheating.... nor was Jerry Rice cheating.


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Cheating or Gamesmanship [Re: Mark Schneider] #279008
05/13/15 06:19 PM
05/13/15 06:19 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
B
brucat Offline
Carpal Tunnel
brucat  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
B

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
If any of those texts were sent after the Indy game, you have to wonder if they were tongue in cheek. Stupid, but funny nonetheless.

Immoral acts in a car? Has anyone been that flexible since high school?

All kidding aside, as usual, I agree with Eric's points above.

Mike

Re: Cheating or Gamesmanship [Re: brucat] #279027
05/14/15 02:27 PM
05/14/15 02:27 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
Carpal Tunnel
waterbug_wpb  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
Originally Posted by brucat
Immoral acts in a car? Has anyone been that flexible since high school?


that's hilarious smile I need to take my heart medication after laughing that hard...


Jay

Re: Cheating or Gamesmanship [Re: Mark Schneider] #279031
05/14/15 08:23 PM
05/14/15 08:23 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
B
brucat Offline
Carpal Tunnel
brucat  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
B

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
You're welcome. Please tip your waitresses and try the veal...

Mike

Page 3 of 3 1 2 3

Moderated by  Damon Linkous 

Search

Who's Online Now
0 registered members (), 652 guests, and 88 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
Darryl, zorro, CraigJ, PaulEddo2, AUS180
8150 Registered Users
Top Posters(30 Days)
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics22,404
Posts267,055
Members8,150
Most Online2,167
Dec 19th, 2022
--Advertisement--
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1