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Thoughts on foiling... #279133
05/26/15 09:19 AM
05/26/15 09:19 AM
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Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline OP
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After reading some of the Sailing Anarchy A Cat Nationals foiling thread, it occurred to me that if we (we as in, future catamaran development) are going to go down the road to foiling, how should the classes be divided up?

I mean, we have always divided the classes up by their designs, One Design is just that, but for the box rule classes, or the Development classes, if you are going to allow foiling and then design a straight up foiling boat, does hull length matter once you get up on the foils? Is a foiling 16 footer just as fast a foiling 20?

I would think the only thing you would want to 'design' is the lightest platform capable of holding the foils and the mast upright.

I guess each box rule class could keep the same limits on sail area, minimum weight, etc, but it could go a new direction in hull design.

So will future 'catamaran' designs go in that direction, once the class rules are modified to allow full on foiling?

Would/should there also be measurement limits on the foils themselves, such as foil type, size, placement, actuators, that type of thing?


Blade F16
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Re: Thoughts on foiling... [Re: Timbo] #279138
05/26/15 09:47 AM
05/26/15 09:47 AM
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Jake Offline
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The moth class is a great example of this transition already taking place in an established displacement class. However, I don't think the moth class was that large prior to the introduction of foiling but there are distinct parallels with the statements and positions of the current a-class sailors "foilers have their conditions", "they won't always be an advantage", etc. etc.



Jake Kohl
Re: Thoughts on foiling... [Re: Timbo] #279143
05/26/15 10:05 AM
05/26/15 10:05 AM
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Timbo Offline OP
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I think we all want to go faster, that's why we (most of us) left monohulls for cats in the first place. I'd love to 'foil', even race a foiler, once it all gets sorted out.

I'm just trying to look ahead to see if there might be some unintended consequences coming in the way of designs, if full on foiling is approved.

I guess we can sit back and watch what happens in the US A Cat class in the next two years, since they basically said that's what they are going to do. Is there a better hull shape to hold the foils? I was thinking they might want to move the foil boxes further forward, perhaps in front of the main beam, to prevent the hobby horse effects we see today.

Seems to me that putting the major lifting foils further up front would prevent a lot of the nose dives. If you move them forward, you could share the load with the rudder foils too.

Of course you'd then have to engineer a way to lift them up, unless you just leave them down and park in deeper water, like the Moth guys do.


Blade F16
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Re: Thoughts on foiling... [Re: Timbo] #279145
05/26/15 10:12 AM
05/26/15 10:12 AM
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Wellington, FL-Singer Island, ...
cyberspeed Offline
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Originally Posted by Timbo
I was thinking they might want to move the foil boxes further forward, perhaps in front of the main beam, to prevent the hobby horse effects we see today.

Ahhh, Bill Roberts "Shared Lift" concept he used for the ARC 21. A bitch to tack though. It is harder to tack the 8.5' boat with shared lift than the 12.5' boat without.


craig van eaton
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Re: Thoughts on foiling... [Re: Jake] #279146
05/26/15 10:12 AM
05/26/15 10:12 AM
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Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
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Originally Posted by Jake
The moth class is a great example of this transition already taking place in an established displacement class. However, I don't think the moth class was that large prior to the introduction of foiling but there are distinct parallels with the statements and positions of the current a-class sailors "foilers have their conditions", "they won't always be an advantage", etc. etc.



But at the end of the day the floaters are a knife at a gun fight. To entertain the idea of running foilers and floaters together is at the very least is misguided. I think the disruption caused by this injection of technology will take a toll short term and the arms race will keep a significant number of us on the sidelines until the dust settles, if it ever settles.

As a potential downside, crashing a full foiling A-cat at 22+ knots is going to leave a mark on both the boat and driver and let's be honest there aren't a lot of kids sailing A cats.


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
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Re: Thoughts on foiling... [Re: Timbo] #279148
05/26/15 11:54 AM
05/26/15 11:54 AM
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Jake Offline
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Originally Posted by Timbo
I think we all want to go faster, that's why we (most of us) left monohulls for cats in the first place. I'd love to 'foil', even race a foiler, once it all gets sorted out.

I'm just trying to look ahead to see if there might be some unintended consequences coming in the way of designs, if full on foiling is approved.

I guess we can sit back and watch what happens in the US A Cat class in the next two years, since they basically said that's what they are going to do. Is there a better hull shape to hold the foils? I was thinking they might want to move the foil boxes further forward, perhaps in front of the main beam, to prevent the hobby horse effects we see today.

Seems to me that putting the major lifting foils further up front would prevent a lot of the nose dives. If you move them forward, you could share the load with the rudder foils too.

Of course you'd then have to engineer a way to lift them up, unless you just leave them down and park in deeper water, like the Moth guys do.


Timbo,

The problem with that is that in order to have stability and control as you transition through lifted flight and non-lifted motion, the main lifting elements need to carry a large majority of the load...just like an airplane. If the foils are moved further toward the ends of the craft (sharing more lift between the boards and the rudders or the wing and the elevators), the dynamic changes in lift as it transitions states is wild and difficult to control. This was one of the (re)discoveries that the America's cup campaigns discovered...they had to put the boards near the CG of the boat - otherwise it would porpoise wildly when it tried to get into the air and was unstable while transitioning. It is the same reason that the main wing element on most aircraft carries almost all of the weight of the plane.


Jake Kohl
Re: Thoughts on foiling... [Re: Timbo] #279152
05/26/15 01:28 PM
05/26/15 01:28 PM
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Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline OP
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Thanks Jake, btw, have you seen some of the Burt Rutan designs, with a lifting canard up front and the main wing aft? He originally designed it that way to 'share' the lift, and to make it stall proof, because the canard will stall before the main wing, which then lowers the nose/angle of attack.

Check this one out:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PT8qKXPJKdw

And here's a smaller one for a homebuilder:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcrF4nYhxvM


Blade F16
#777
Re: Thoughts on foiling... [Re: Timbo] #279153
05/26/15 01:44 PM
05/26/15 01:44 PM
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Timbo Offline OP
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Here's a look at "The Whisper" a two up foiling cat, looks like it's using those Moth type rods to adjust ride height, and this was filmed on very, very flat water. I wonder how it goes in waves and chop?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6AwfruS9aAo


Blade F16
#777
Re: Thoughts on foiling... [Re: Timbo] #279154
05/26/15 01:55 PM
05/26/15 01:55 PM
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Timbo Offline OP
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How about a foiling bicycle?

I think I'll take a ride around the lake:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLboyOqi6R8

Here's a slightly different take on pedal powered foiling, looks interesting...in flat water.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvlS-4t54cc


Blade F16
#777
Re: Thoughts on foiling... [Re: Timbo] #279156
05/26/15 02:02 PM
05/26/15 02:02 PM
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V
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Originally Posted by Timbo
How about a foiling bicycle?

I think I'll take a ride around the lake:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLboyOqi6R8

Here's a slightly different take on pedal powered foiling, looks interesting...in flat water.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvlS-4t54cc


Like to see that in amphibian mode....

Re: Thoughts on foiling... [Re: Timbo] #279157
05/26/15 02:43 PM
05/26/15 02:43 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
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South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Originally Posted by Timbo
Thanks Jake, btw, have you seen some of the Burt Rutan designs, with a lifting canard up front and the main wing aft? He originally designed it that way to 'share' the lift, and to make it stall proof, because the canard will stall before the main wing, which then lowers the nose/angle of attack.

Check this one out:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PT8qKXPJKdw

And here's a smaller one for a homebuilder:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcrF4nYhxvM


Oh, have I? ;-) I've been a fan of the LongEZ and VariEZ since I was 16. I have a rough RC model that I bought at an auction a long time ago but never put together. Having later put myself through college rebuilding mazda rotary engines, the thought of building my own LongEZ with a rotary engine was quite a dream for a long time.


Jake Kohl
Re: Thoughts on foiling... [Re: Timbo] #279158
05/26/15 03:33 PM
05/26/15 03:33 PM
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Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline OP
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I remember seeing a monohull racing boat, about 40'(?), that put the rudder in the front to share the lift, but it was supposedly a b!tch to drive straight. I think it did OK in a couple races but the idea obviously didn't catch on.

Anyone remember the specifics on that boat? I saw some pictures in magazines at the time, but it was about 20 (or more) years ago so I've long since forgotten most of the details.

"What If" someone put the 'rudder' foils in front on a cat, and put the larger, J type foils a little further aft, I wonder if that would limit the hobby horsing? Of course the steering linkage might be tough to work out!


Blade F16
#777
Re: Thoughts on foiling... [Re: Timbo] #279160
05/26/15 04:03 PM
05/26/15 04:03 PM
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Florida Suncoast, Dunedin Caus...
catman Offline
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Speaking of Whisper.

Another T foil set up. Seems to me with this design a small recess in the hull could be done so the board could be pulled up flush with the bottom of the boat enabling the boat to hit the beach without damaging the foil. I know the rudders are still an issue but one miracle at a time.


Have Fun
Re: Thoughts on foiling... [Re: Timbo] #279161
05/26/15 04:14 PM
05/26/15 04:14 PM
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South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Originally Posted by Timbo
I remember seeing a monohull racing boat, about 40'(?), that put the rudder in the front to share the lift, but it was supposedly a b!tch to drive straight. I think it did OK in a couple races but the idea obviously didn't catch on.

Anyone remember the specifics on that boat? I saw some pictures in magazines at the time, but it was about 20 (or more) years ago so I've long since forgotten most of the details.

"What If" someone put the 'rudder' foils in front on a cat, and put the larger, J type foils a little further aft, I wonder if that would limit the hobby horsing? Of course the steering linkage might be tough to work out!


It turned into a patent nightmare. If I remember correctly, they had a trimable trailing flap on the keel fin too and some sort of arrangement with both a fore and aft rudder. I know there were lawsuit threats but I don't know if it ever went to court.


Jake Kohl
Re: Thoughts on foiling... [Re: Timbo] #279162
05/26/15 04:28 PM
05/26/15 04:28 PM
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Schock 40. I sailed on one. Also had a canting keel. Wicked fast on a reach, and very hard to steer. Several had the keels fall off and it sort of killed the class.

Re: Thoughts on foiling... [Re: Timbo] #279163
05/26/15 04:31 PM
05/26/15 04:31 PM
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Greenville SC
bacho Offline
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Are uou talking about the schock 40?

Edit, too slow

Last edited by bacho; 05/26/15 04:32 PM.
Re: Thoughts on foiling... [Re: Timbo] #279183
05/27/15 02:30 PM
05/27/15 02:30 PM
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Naples, FL
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Originally Posted by Timbo
I think we all want to go faster, that's why we (most of us) left monohulls for cats in the first place.


+1 on going faster, but only to the extent that sailing still remains relatively easy. If it's going to be like racing a unicycle down an ice luge track, no thanks.


Jay

Re: Thoughts on foiling... [Re: waterbug_wpb] #279187
05/27/15 03:04 PM
05/27/15 03:04 PM
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Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
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Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
Originally Posted by Timbo
I think we all want to go faster, that's why we (most of us) left monohulls for cats in the first place.


+1 on going faster, but only to the extent that sailing still remains relatively easy. If it's going to be like racing a unicycle down an ice luge track, no thanks.


And that is the rub. Sailing is a giant pain in the a$$ and every time it's made more difficult to go a little faster we lose members from the water. This impact is always lost in the noise created by the hype of "new tech". Then we always ask ourselves what is happening to our numbers like there is some invisible force keeping people away from sailing.

You can look down your nose and the monohull classes but they are still getting some very respectable numbers on some serious relics and appear to be having a great time.

Keep raising he skill level required and increasing the price of admission and our pool will continue to get smaller and smaller.



David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: Thoughts on foiling... [Re: David Ingram] #279195
05/27/15 08:19 PM
05/27/15 08:19 PM
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Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
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Originally Posted by David Ingram
Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
Originally Posted by Timbo
I think we all want to go faster, that's why we (most of us) left monohulls for cats in the first place.


+1 on going faster, but only to the extent that sailing still remains relatively easy. If it's going to be like racing a unicycle down an ice luge track, no thanks.


And that is the rub. Sailing is a giant pain in the a$$ and every time it's made more difficult to go a little faster we lose members from the water. This impact is always lost in the noise created by the hype of "new tech". Then we always ask ourselves what is happening to our numbers like there is some invisible force keeping people away from sailing.

You can look down your nose and the monohull classes but they are still getting some very respectable numbers on some serious relics and appear to be having a great time.

Keep raising he skill level required and increasing the price of admission and our pool will continue to get smaller and smaller.



You're starting to sound exactly like Mark Schneider. Congratulations. No one has to get a foiler, so there's no need for anyone to quit. By your logic ,we should all be on Hobie 14s or Aqua cats. You'll start digging it in 10 years (if you make it that long), it took you that long to get into real distance racing.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: Thoughts on foiling... [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #279199
05/27/15 09:29 PM
05/27/15 09:29 PM
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Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Todd

Hobie 14
Hobie Wave
Hobie 17
Isotope
F16 Single hander
A class floater
A Class ISAF Flyer
A Class USA Franken Flyer

Plenty of cat sailors racing all of these boats. They all still have NA's. Dave's point that constant change is not good for participation is supported by the fact that these old classes are still going well.... and for cheap!

However,... you don't see any Catnips, Woodies, Boyer 4s in the floater class.... Why? the other old boats are still racing?
Dave nails it...Set aside sails.... if every year... you need to inject 4K in equipment upgrades to stay with pack.. The flush rate will be high...

Only the A class has seen value in splitting into three classes. Why?


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