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Re: 35th America's Cup [Re: Timbo] #280093
08/01/15 04:47 AM
08/01/15 04:47 AM
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 976
France
pepin Offline
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pepin  Offline
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France
Timbo: Can you provide an example where you saw a foiler pitchpole? The foils actually prevent the dreaded pitchpole in the first place.

The current foilers have a nose down attitude, but that's on purpose, as it is faster (less drag if the front hits the water than if the transom does). The only moment when these boats can pitchpole is if the foil is not working (boat not going fast enough through a transition for example).

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: 35th America's Cup [Re: Timbo] #280095
08/01/15 11:01 AM
08/01/15 11:01 AM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,658
Florida Suncoast, Dunedin Caus...
catman Offline
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Florida Suncoast, Dunedin Caus...
Originally Posted by Timbo
Here's a question for you designer wannabe's.

As we have been seeing ever since Foiling became a 'Thing', the worst thing that can happen is the dreaded nose-over, pitch pole. As I look at all the foiling boats, from the Phantom all the way up to that 70' Tri above, they all have the main lifting foils mounted at about mid hull, with a T rudder setup in the back. From watching many of these videos, it seams they always start to hobby horse in any type of big swell, and the bows dig in once in a while, often with disastrous results!

Why aren't they putting the main lifting foils further forward, instead of only at amidships? If the would put it way out front, that would stop the teeter-totter effect we see in the swells.

They could make the rear foils bigger and the front foils smaller, to evenly distribute the weight, but it seems to me it would be much more stable if they spread the foil lift to all 4 corners, rather than keeping it right in the middle of the boat and having the nose dive tendencies.


Why are plane wings positioned where they are? Balance? The other thing to consider is how would it handle/steer with the foils forward. Very slow I think.


Have Fun
Re: 35th America's Cup [Re: pepin] #280096
08/01/15 11:04 AM
08/01/15 11:04 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 888
Dunedin Causeway, FL
David Parker Offline OP
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David Parker  Offline OP
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Does this count?
[Linked Image]

Attached Files
NZ AC72 stuffs a bow.jpg (150 downloads)
Re: 35th America's Cup [Re: David Parker] #280097
08/01/15 01:14 PM
08/01/15 01:14 PM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,658
Florida Suncoast, Dunedin Caus...
catman Offline
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That's a great shot. However,it did not go over.


Have Fun
Re: 35th America's Cup [Re: David Parker] #280098
08/01/15 03:07 PM
08/01/15 03:07 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,954
B
brucat Offline
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B
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Originally Posted by David Parker
Does this count?
[Linked Image]


That, as they say, is not fast...

Mike

Re: 35th America's Cup [Re: brucat] #280102
08/02/15 09:50 AM
08/02/15 09:50 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,303
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Jake  Offline
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South Carolina
The lack of ability to watch the America's Cup is starting to affect my desire to see any of it. While $8 isn't staggering by any means, I just didn't feel like paying that to see it (partially figuring that it would be available for free moments after I shelled over the $8).

If you want me to pay a few bucks, have a feature presentation put together that compiles the racing action with an inside view from each venue and make it available by subscription at Netflix, or Amazon, etc (where I know I won't have feed reliability issues). I would probably watch the (free) racing and then pay for that to see some inside information on the action.

It's as if our own team kinda gave up on us US schmucks.


Jake Kohl
Re: 35th America's Cup [Re: catman] #280103
08/02/15 01:39 PM
08/02/15 01:39 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,035
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
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Timbo  Offline
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Originally Posted by catman
Originally Posted by Timbo
Here's a question for you designer wannabe's.

As we have been seeing ever since Foiling became a 'Thing', the worst thing that can happen is the dreaded nose-over, pitch pole. As I look at all the foiling boats, from the Phantom all the way up to that 70' Tri above, they all have the main lifting foils mounted at about mid hull, with a T rudder setup in the back. From watching many of these videos, it seams they always start to hobby horse in any type of big swell, and the bows dig in once in a while, often with disastrous results!

Why aren't they putting the main lifting foils further forward, instead of only at amidships? If the would put it way out front, that would stop the teeter-totter effect we see in the swells.


They could make the rear foils bigger and the front foils smaller, to evenly distribute the weight, but it seems to me it would be much more stable if they spread the foil lift to all 4 corners, rather than keeping it right in the middle of the boat and having the nose dive tendencies.


Why are plane wings positioned where they are? Balance? The other thing to consider is how would it handle/steer with the foils forward. Very slow I think.


Well, that's the problem. They have to design something that's going to 'work' in at least 3 axis', then throw in differing sea state, wind speeds, etc, every design is a compromise trying best to fulfill all those requirements. I'm sure they have lots of smart guys from Boeing and Airbus on staff telling them exactly what/where those foils should be, but I'd still like to see what would happen if they put them further forward, and then did a 'shared lift' concept with larger foils on the rudders.

That may indeed slow down the turning required from the rudders though, maybe that's why we see such small foils back there, with most of the heavy lifting being done by the big L boards in the middle of the boat.

Now, let's think about our A cats, and all the teeter-tottering they do when up on the foils. Have any of them tried moving their big C boards further forward to see if that helps keep them from doing a face plant?

Here's the Red Bull 18's foiling:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyVPBob9qvI

And an A cat:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0gXbhjUDtA


Blade F16
#777
Re: 35th America's Cup [Re: Timbo] #280104
08/02/15 01:50 PM
08/02/15 01:50 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,303
South Carolina
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,303
South Carolina
Originally Posted by Timbo
Originally Posted by catman
Originally Posted by Timbo
Here's a question for you designer wannabe's.

As we have been seeing ever since Foiling became a 'Thing', the worst thing that can happen is the dreaded nose-over, pitch pole. As I look at all the foiling boats, from the Phantom all the way up to that 70' Tri above, they all have the main lifting foils mounted at about mid hull, with a T rudder setup in the back. From watching many of these videos, it seams they always start to hobby horse in any type of big swell, and the bows dig in once in a while, often with disastrous results!

Why aren't they putting the main lifting foils further forward, instead of only at amidships? If the would put it way out front, that would stop the teeter-totter effect we see in the swells.

They could make the rear foils bigger and the front foils smaller, to evenly distribute the weight, but it seems to me it would be much more stable if they spread the foil lift to all 4 corners, rather than keeping it right in the middle of the boat and having the nose dive tendencies.


Why are plane wings positioned where they are? Balance? The other thing to consider is how would it handle/steer with the foils forward. Very slow I think.


Well, that's the problem. They have to design something that's going to 'work' in at least 3 axis', then throw in differing sea state, wind speeds, etc, every design is a compromise trying best to fulfill all those requirements. I'm sure they have lots of smart guys from Boeing and Airbus on staff telling them exactly what/where those foils should be, but I'd still like to see what would happen if they put them further forward, and then did a 'shared lift' concept with larger foils on the rudders.

That may indeed slow down the turning required from the rudders though, maybe that's why we see such small foils back there, with most of the heavy lifting being done by the big L boards in the middle of the boat.

Now, let's think about our A cats, and all the teeter-tottering they do when up on the foils. Have any of them tried moving their big C boards further forward to see if that helps keep them from doing a face plant?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0gXbhjUDtA


they actually started that way. The problem was (didn't we have this conversation before?) that with the shared lift of the main and secondary foils, the boat was very unstable when transitioning from displacement mode to foiling mode. At some point in that transition, the boat needs to pitch up in order to get to an elevated foiling position. With forward mounted foils and rudders lifting (and no allowed trim tabs on any of the foils), the boat tended to porpoise badly and was very difficult to control. It was only until they brought the foils back closer to the center of mass of the boat that they were able to achieve a stable transition from displacement to foiling....which is the same reason airplanes have a primary lifting wing close to the CG of the aircraft.


Jake Kohl
Re: 35th America's Cup [Re: Jake] #280105
08/02/15 02:40 PM
08/02/15 02:40 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,490
On the Water
P.M. Offline
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P.M.  Offline
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Posts: 2,490
On the Water
Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by Timbo
Originally Posted by catman
Originally Posted by Timbo
Here's a question for you designer wannabe's.

As we have been seeing ever since Foiling became a 'Thing', the worst thing that can happen is the dreaded nose-over, pitch pole. As I look at all the foiling boats, from the Phantom all the way up to that 70' Tri above, they all have the main lifting foils mounted at about mid hull, with a T rudder setup in the back. From watching many of these videos, it seams they always start to hobby horse in any type of big swell, and the bows dig in once in a while, often with disastrous results!

Why aren't they putting the main lifting foils further forward, instead of only at amidships? If the would put it way out front, that would stop the teeter-totter effect we see in the swells.

They could make the rear foils bigger and the front foils smaller, to evenly distribute the weight, but it seems to me it would be much more stable if they spread the foil lift to all 4 corners, rather than keeping it right in the middle of the boat and having the nose dive tendencies.


Why are plane wings positioned where they are? Balance? The other thing to consider is how would it handle/steer with the foils forward. Very slow I think.


Well, that's the problem. They have to design something that's going to 'work' in at least 3 axis', then throw in differing sea state, wind speeds, etc, every design is a compromise trying best to fulfill all those requirements. I'm sure they have lots of smart guys from Boeing and Airbus on staff telling them exactly what/where those foils should be, but I'd still like to see what would happen if they put them further forward, and then did a 'shared lift' concept with larger foils on the rudders.

That may indeed slow down the turning required from the rudders though, maybe that's why we see such small foils back there, with most of the heavy lifting being done by the big L boards in the middle of the boat.

Now, let's think about our A cats, and all the teeter-tottering they do when up on the foils. Have any of them tried moving their big C boards further forward to see if that helps keep them from doing a face plant?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0gXbhjUDtA


they actually started that way. The problem was (didn't we have this conversation before?) that with the shared lift of the main and secondary foils, the boat was very unstable when transitioning from displacement mode to foiling mode. At some point in that transition, the boat needs to pitch up in order to get to an elevated foiling position. With forward mounted foils and rudders lifting (and no allowed trim tabs on any of the foils), the boat tended to porpoise badly and was very difficult to control. It was only until they brought the foils back closer to the center of mass of the boat that they were able to achieve a stable transition from displacement to foiling....which is the same reason airplanes have a primary lifting wing close to the CG of the aircraft.

Think of the rudder foils serving to provide stability, not so much lift. Similar to the horizontal stabilizer on a plane.


Philip
USA #1006
Re: 35th America's Cup [Re: David Parker] #280106
08/02/15 08:03 PM
08/02/15 08:03 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 709
mikekrantz Offline
old hand
mikekrantz  Offline
old hand
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 709
moving the foils forward increases the difficulty of tacking.

Re: 35th America's Cup [Re: Jake] #280109
08/02/15 09:05 PM
08/02/15 09:05 PM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,658
Florida Suncoast, Dunedin Caus...
catman Offline
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Florida Suncoast, Dunedin Caus...
Originally Posted by Jake
The lack of ability to watch the America's Cup is starting to affect my desire to see any of it. While $8 isn't staggering by any means, I just didn't feel like paying that to see it (partially figuring that it would be available for free moments after I shelled over the $8).

If you want me to pay a few bucks, have a feature presentation put together that compiles the racing action with an inside view from each venue and make it available by subscription at Netflix, or Amazon, etc (where I know I won't have feed reliability issues). I would probably watch the (free) racing and then pay for that to see some inside information on the action.

It's as if our own team kinda gave up on us US schmucks.


+1. My feeling is LE had his run and is done with it. He's hoping BA wins it for merry old England. And we are not schmucks, they are.


Have Fun
Re: 35th America's Cup [Re: David Parker] #280112
08/03/15 03:45 AM
08/03/15 03:45 AM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,584
+31NL
Tony_F18 Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Tony_F18  Offline
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+31NL
Someone on SA wrote that he got the next ACWS event (Gothenburg) credited to his AC+ account as compensation for there not being any racing on Sunday in Portsmouth.
I'm kind of hoping that Ainslie wins the AC, Portsmouth would be a great location for the next AC (and its only a few hours travel!).
Anyone else got an email about that?

Re: 35th America's Cup [Re: Tony_F18] #280117
08/03/15 09:48 AM
08/03/15 09:48 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,303
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Jake  Offline
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South Carolina
Originally Posted by Tony_F18
Someone on SA wrote that he got the next ACWS event (Gothenburg) credited to his AC+ account as compensation for there not being any racing on Sunday in Portsmouth.
I'm kind of hoping that Ainslie wins the AC, Portsmouth would be a great location for the next AC (and its only a few hours travel!).
Anyone else got an email about that?


That was released in the news a few days ago....Gothenburg should be free for anyone that paid to see Portsmouth (I'm guessing they aren't exactly making a fortune with the paid viewing).


Jake Kohl
Re: 35th America's Cup [Re: David Parker] #280118
08/03/15 10:45 AM
08/03/15 10:45 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,035
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
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OK, not even a sailboat, but check out this 'foiling' motorcycle!

Dude even surfs with it! Stick with it to the end to see him outrun a huge wave.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDi9uFcD7XI&feature=youtu.be


Blade F16
#777
Re: 35th America's Cup [Re: Timbo] #280119
08/03/15 11:35 AM
08/03/15 11:35 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
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Naples, FL
wonder how many bikes he went through to get those takes...


Jay

Re: 35th America's Cup [Re: Timbo] #280120
08/03/15 01:51 PM
08/03/15 01:51 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,303
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Jake  Offline
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Posts: 12,303
South Carolina
That's hilarious.


Jake Kohl
Re: 35th America's Cup [Re: waterbug_wpb] #280121
08/03/15 03:03 PM
08/03/15 03:03 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,117
Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
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Northfield Mn
Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
wonder how many bikes he went through to get those takes...


That was exactly my thought. That didn't happen on the first try.


I'm boatless.
Re: 35th America's Cup [Re: waterbug_wpb] #280122
08/03/15 03:03 PM
08/03/15 03:03 PM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,658
Florida Suncoast, Dunedin Caus...
catman Offline
Pooh-Bah
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Florida Suncoast, Dunedin Caus...
Something they worked on for two years to get right. There's a how they did it vid out there.


Have Fun
Re: 35th America's Cup [Re: David Parker] #280123
08/03/15 09:50 PM
08/03/15 09:50 PM
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 473
Panama City, Florida
Redtwin Offline
addict
Redtwin  Offline
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Panama City, Florida
Man... from the name of the video I was hoping to see him time the tube to perfection. Oh well, still impressive. I bet that salt water played havoc on a small gas engine.

-Rob


Rob V. Nacra 5.2 Panama City
Re: 35th America's Cup [Re: Redtwin] #280124
08/03/15 10:10 PM
08/03/15 10:10 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,303
South Carolina
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
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Posts: 12,303
South Carolina
Originally Posted by Redtwin
Man... from the name of the video I was hoping to see him time the tube to perfection. Oh well, still impressive. I bet that salt water played havoc on a small gas engine.

-Rob


And the drive chain, sprockets, bearings...etc. And, technically speaking, it's planing - not foiling. ;-)

the way they edited that lead me to believe that big wave at the end choked the engine and the wave got him.


Jake Kohl
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