Announcements
New Discussions
Worrell 1000 Ground Crew Finder
by John Williams. 02/18/20 06:50 PM
Bringing back the cat
by dave mosley. 02/03/20 08:12 AM
Worrell 1000
by John Williams. 01/29/20 04:38 PM
F85SR Concept Boat
by phill. 01/29/20 03:44 AM
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Hop To
Page 2 of 3 1 2 3
Re: Nacra Class Rules [Re: Ventucky Red] #282832
06/07/16 09:53 AM
06/07/16 09:53 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Originally Posted by Ventucky Red
From what I understand, on a upwind/downwind course a bi-radial main and a tri radial jib will have an advantage over cross cut sail.



Yeah, but man, talk about splitting hairs. You guys are talking about the last remaining 1% of performance on sailors who typically aren't within a 20% max performance window. Handicap racing simply isn't serious enough to sweat such fine immeasurable details. There are conditions and situations where the dacron sail will outperform the mylar. If you really want your racing to be that close and precise, you have to go one design. If racing handicap, just get a number that's close and get on the water. You'll lose the equivalent of several portsmouth handicap points with one crappy start.


Jake Kohl
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Nacra Class Rules [Re: Jake] #282833
06/07/16 12:57 PM
06/07/16 12:57 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
Carpal Tunnel
waterbug_wpb  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
Originally Posted by Jake
You'll lose the equivalent of several portsmouth handicap points with one crappy start.


You, sir, have obviously been watching my starts lately... smile


Jay

Re: Nacra Class Rules [Re: Jake] #282835
06/07/16 02:09 PM
06/07/16 02:09 PM
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,403
V
Ventucky Red Offline
veteran
Ventucky Red  Offline
veteran
V

Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,403
Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by Ventucky Red
From what I understand, on a upwind/downwind course a bi-radial main and a tri radial jib will have an advantage over cross cut sail.



Yeah, but man, talk about splitting hairs. You guys are talking about the last remaining 1% of performance on sailors who typically aren't within a 20% max performance window. Handicap racing simply isn't serious enough to sweat such fine immeasurable details. There are conditions and situations where the dacron sail will outperform the mylar. If you really want your racing to be that close and precise, you have to go one design. If racing handicap, just get a number that's close and get on the water. You'll lose the equivalent of several portsmouth handicap points with one crappy start.


Probally so... but it is moot anyway... like stated earlier with the exception of a few die in the wool Hobie sailors that are still "class" racing; just about every older boat with new sails I am seeing these days has gone to a squaretop...

Regarging setting a rating... the policy I have adopted is you tell us what you think you are and we're good with it... should someone in the race complain, then we're gonna take a look... I have found the saling as a whole is group are pretty straight forawrd honest people.




Last edited by Ventucky Red; 06/07/16 02:12 PM.
Re: Nacra Class Rules [Re: abbman] #282836
06/07/16 05:06 PM
06/07/16 05:06 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
B
brucat Offline
Carpal Tunnel
brucat  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
B

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
I agree that most people come into this with the right intentions.

My question about SCHRS was to see if it handles the sail design problem any better than Portsmouth (it doesn't). It does handle size differences, of course someone needs to measure that.

Aside from that, I fully agree with Jake, but the funny thing about handicap sailing (under any system) is that when people lose, they rarely blame their errors (bad starts, blown tacks, going the wrong way), and spend too much time complaining about the unfairness of the (insert system name here) numbers.

Mike

Re: Nacra Class Rules [Re: brucat] #282837
06/07/16 06:18 PM
06/07/16 06:18 PM
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,403
V
Ventucky Red Offline
veteran
Ventucky Red  Offline
veteran
V

Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,403
Originally Posted by brucat
I agree that most people come into this with the right intentions.

My question about SCHRS was to see if it handles the sail design problem any better than Portsmouth (it doesn't). It does handle size differences, of course someone needs to measure that.

Aside from that, I fully agree with Jake, but the funny thing about handicap sailing (under any system) is that when people lose, they rarely blame their errors (bad starts, blown tacks, going the wrong way), and spend too much time complaining about the unfairness of the (insert system name here) numbers.

Mike


Would be nice if there was an easy way to do this... measure sails that is... but the honor system and what Portsmouth currently has works for us.

Of course you're going to have someone whining at the end of a race.... it is the nature of the beast..

Re: Nacra Class Rules [Re: abbman] #282839
06/08/16 06:47 AM
06/08/16 06:47 AM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
B
brucat Offline
Carpal Tunnel
brucat  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
B

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
Agreed. I think you hit the nail on the head, find what works for your event (sailors) and focus on having a good time.

Mike

Re: Nacra Class Rules [Re: brucat] #282840
06/08/16 08:41 AM
06/08/16 08:41 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
Carpal Tunnel
waterbug_wpb  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
+1. Except for those who are hell bent on making some sort of living out of this sport, the rest of us need to understand the regattas you spend so much effort organizing, overseeing and marketing are designed so:

- you get to sail/hang out with folks with similar interest
- you go around in circles a few times
- you brush up/improve your boat/sail handling skills
- you learn rules and strategy better
- you pick up tips from those really good sailors
- you take home stories of bad card games, karoke, cheap drinks, good/bad races, etc.
- you MIGHT take home "street cred", tropies, case of the sh*ts (or worse if you hang out with the SA crowd)

The PRO's job is to try and make the playing field level, especially for regattas that aren't part of some championship ladder (which is probably 90%+ of the regattas out there currently)

Their job is not to baby-sit or Measure Nazi those who decide that cheating (or pushing the rules way beyond reasonable interpretation) is the only way to win. Sitting through hours of petitions for redress / protests because some seaweed got caught in your rudder, or your Franken boat broke parts because you don't maintain them, just doesn't make sense. If you want that crap, sign up for the really top-level events (OCR, Nationals, etc), OD/SMOD, etc. and make sure you are up to snuff.

Each competitor has to ask the hard question "am I here to SAIL, or to WIN"? Sure, both is great but there can only be one winner and the rest of us are "layline fodder". Accept that and have fun with it.

Yes, I'm certain I am naive, but I've never finished a PHRF regatta and think I shouldn't have sailed it because I didn't win


Jay

Re: Nacra Class Rules [Re: Ventucky Red] #282841
06/08/16 03:00 PM
06/08/16 03:00 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Originally Posted by Ventucky Red
Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by Ventucky Red
From what I understand, on a upwind/downwind course a bi-radial main and a tri radial jib will have an advantage over cross cut sail.



Yeah, but man, talk about splitting hairs. You guys are talking about the last remaining 1% of performance on sailors who typically aren't within a 20% max performance window. Handicap racing simply isn't serious enough to sweat such fine immeasurable details. There are conditions and situations where the dacron sail will outperform the mylar. If you really want your racing to be that close and precise, you have to go one design. If racing handicap, just get a number that's close and get on the water. You'll lose the equivalent of several portsmouth handicap points with one crappy start.


Probally so... but it is moot anyway... like stated earlier with the exception of a few die in the wool Hobie sailors that are still "class" racing; just about every older boat with new sails I am seeing these days has gone to a squaretop...

Regarging setting a rating... the policy I have adopted is you tell us what you think you are and we're good with it... should someone in the race complain, then we're gonna take a look... I have found the saling as a whole is group are pretty straight forawrd honest people.





F18, F16, A-cat...but I digress. Carry on.


Jake Kohl
Re: Nacra Class Rules [Re: abbman] #282842
06/08/16 04:19 PM
06/08/16 04:19 PM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,658
Florida Suncoast, Dunedin Caus...
catman Offline
Pooh-Bah
catman  Offline
Pooh-Bah

Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,658
Florida Suncoast, Dunedin Caus...
I don't think measuring the sail is such a big deal. The sail maker should certify the sq footage and mark the sail. This is advantage of having someone other than the boat builder making the sails.

To further what Sam was saying about Nacra,

I had some questions about a guy with a Hobie 17 with a square top. He was asked straight up if his sail was within the 5% because he only claimed the MN hit. He assured us that it was. He's not the nicest guy and after seeing a stock 17 next to his I finally wanted to know if he was honest. So I contacted his sail maker and asked about that sail.

This was the sail makers response. I have sanitized this email. I'm not trying to make him the issue and he isn't. If anything I thank him for being straight up and would be happy to have him make me sails. I've removed the name of the sail and added BLANK MAIN in it's place.

"Secondly, what do you have listed for the stock sail? 168sq' as listed by Hobie.

The Hobie 17 BLANK MAIN is 158sq' (15m2). I also have my version of the stock sail, same size, same battens and it measures in, by way of computer design, at 145sq' (13.8m2).

I found every one of their area measurements to be inaccurate. Did they want the true numbers? NO.

Most of their sails were designed by hand on the loft floor. It wasn't until the H20 that they were developed in a sail design program. They derived all of their sail areas by a 'funky' measurement system.

The BLANK MAIN is 8% larger than the stock sail, but in Hobie's world it is 6% smaller."

I called the sailor out on this point. He's never come back. Now He knew but Hobie opened the door for this kind of crap by not stating the Sq ft properly.

I see SCHRS as the way to go and would like to try it.



Have Fun
Re: Nacra Class Rules [Re: catman] #282844
06/09/16 06:45 AM
06/09/16 06:45 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
In all honesty, there are several ways to measure a sail. There are very simple methods and exceptionally complex methods. A computer, that is giving you the exact computed sail cloth area, will deviate significantly from any simplified point to point manual measurement system. You can only get a precise manual sail measurement if you use a lot of calculus and intend to spend a few days on it. Manual sail measurement systems make an approximation of the sail area and good sail makers not only understand exactly what measurement system is specified by a particular class but how to wiggle in a little extra sail area and still measure in.

You need to know the sail area and the method used to measure it before you can really compare sails. For instance; the F18 class used to have their own sail measurement method before they became an ISAF class and had to adopt the ISAF measurement system (which was a little more complex and time consuming). Just laying sails on top of each other will not give you a very good picture of how they "measure in".

But, again, we're seriously splitting and resplitting hairs here.

How does SCHRS handle non-factory sails?


Jake Kohl
Re: Nacra Class Rules [Re: Jake] #282845
06/09/16 08:03 AM
06/09/16 08:03 AM
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,403
V
Ventucky Red Offline
veteran
Ventucky Red  Offline
veteran
V

Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,403
Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by Ventucky Red
Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by Ventucky Red
From what I understand, on a upwind/downwind course a bi-radial main and a tri radial jib will have an advantage over cross cut sail.





Yeah, but man, talk about splitting hairs. You guys are talking about the last remaining 1% of performance on sailors who typically aren't within a 20% max performance window. Handicap racing simply isn't serious enough to sweat such fine immeasurable details. There are conditions and situations where the dacron sail will outperform the mylar. If you really want your racing to be that close and precise, you have to go one design. If racing handicap, just get a number that's close and get on the water. You'll lose the equivalent of several portsmouth handicap points with one crappy start.


Probally so... but it is moot anyway... like stated earlier with the exception of a few die in the wool Hobie sailors that are still "class" racing; just about every older boat with new sails I am seeing these days has gone to a squaretop...

Regarging setting a rating... the policy I have adopted is you tell us what you think you are and we're good with it... should someone in the race complain, then we're gonna take a look... I have found the saling as a whole is group are pretty straight forawrd honest people.





F18, F16, A-cat...but I digress. Carry on.


In a perfect world yes.... but not all are willing to spend that kind of money.

Re: Nacra Class Rules [Re: Jake] #282846
06/09/16 08:24 AM
06/09/16 08:24 AM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,066
Wellington, FL-Singer Island, ...
cyberspeed Offline
old hand
cyberspeed  Offline
old hand

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,066
Wellington, FL-Singer Island, ...
Originally Posted by Jake
How does SCHRS handle non-factory sails?

http://schrs.com/measurements.php


craig van eaton
Supercat 20
TEAM CYBERSPEED
www.TeamCyberspeed.com
Endurance Series
www.SailSeries.com
Re: Nacra Class Rules [Re: abbman] #282847
06/09/16 09:55 AM
06/09/16 09:55 AM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
B
brucat Offline
Carpal Tunnel
brucat  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
B

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
It's all a balance. SCHRS will address newer designs (those without adequate race results to calculate a meaningful DPN number), but requires measuring, which either means advance planning by the sailors (get your cert before the season/regatta), or the OA needs to have measurers and time factored into the event schedule.

If using a "stock" number, both systems rely upon the boats using the exact setup used to develop the "stock" number. The problem with using a SCHRS number generated in Europe is that the sail plan, boards, etc. may have been different on the boat used to calculate the number (than is sold/sailed in the US).

The challenge of either system is garbage-in, garbage-out when it comes to SMOD sails. We're at the mercy of what the manufacturers are willing to give us for data.

Mike

Re: Nacra Class Rules [Re: catman] #282848
06/09/16 10:16 AM
06/09/16 10:16 AM
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 774
Greenville SC
bacho Offline
old hand
bacho  Offline
old hand

Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 774
Greenville SC
Originally Posted by catman


I called the sailor out on this point. He's never come back. Now He knew but Hobie opened the door for this kind of crap by not stating the Sq ft properly.




Way to go!

Re: Nacra Class Rules [Re: bacho] #282849
06/09/16 11:51 AM
06/09/16 11:51 AM
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,403
V
Ventucky Red Offline
veteran
Ventucky Red  Offline
veteran
V

Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,403
Originally Posted by bacho
Originally Posted by catman


I called the sailor out on this point. He's never come back. Now He knew but Hobie opened the door for this kind of crap by not stating the Sq ft properly.




Way to go!


I think with the Hobie 21, Tiger, and the Wildcat for Formula 18 racing... Hobie is pretty dictatorial on their sails for class racing... that is they come from the factory or a licensed sail maker... anything outside of that is not class legal hence the MN hit..

As for the sailor not coming back.... how is that a good thing?

Re: Nacra Class Rules [Re: Ventucky Red] #282850
06/09/16 12:56 PM
06/09/16 12:56 PM

M
MN3
Unregistered
MN3
Unregistered
M



Originally Posted by Ventucky Red
As for the sailor not coming back.... how is that a good thing?


Not trying to answer for Catman but in my mind ...
quality vs quantity
I would rather sail (and socialize with a small group of honorable people vs a large crowd of jerks / liars / thieves

Re: Nacra Class Rules [Re: ] #282851
06/09/16 02:31 PM
06/09/16 02:31 PM
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,403
V
Ventucky Red Offline
veteran
Ventucky Red  Offline
veteran
V

Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,403
Originally Posted by MN3
Originally Posted by Ventucky Red
As for the sailor not coming back.... how is that a good thing?


Not trying to answer for Catman but in my mind ...
quality vs quantity
I would rather sail (and socialize with a small group of honorable people vs a large crowd of jerks / liars / thieves


Point taken... but you can lie with dogs and not get fleas...

In some cases it may be just a misunderstanding or not knowing the rules. Calling them on it and chasing them away seems a bit harsh when many of us are trying to re-build fleets and generate new sailors..

I have known some cheaters over the years... they're going to do it regardless... funny no matter how much they did it, they never won..





Last edited by Ventucky Red; 06/09/16 02:42 PM.
Re: Nacra Class Rules [Re: Ventucky Red] #282852
06/09/16 04:20 PM
06/09/16 04:20 PM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,658
Florida Suncoast, Dunedin Caus...
catman Offline
Pooh-Bah
catman  Offline
Pooh-Bah

Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,658
Florida Suncoast, Dunedin Caus...
Originally Posted by Ventucky Red
Originally Posted by bacho
Originally Posted by catman


I called the sailor out on this point. He's never come back. Now He knew but Hobie opened the door for this kind of crap by not stating the Sq ft properly.




Way to go!


I think with the Hobie 21, Tiger, and the Wildcat for Formula 18 racing... Hobie is pretty dictatorial on their sails for class racing... that is they come from the factory or a licensed sail maker... anything outside of that is not class legal hence the MN hit..

As for the sailor not coming back.... how is that a good thing?


He claimed the MN hit, he should have taken the ML. More than 5% is ML.

There's so much more to the story of this guy and It wasn't my intention to make it about him. However, when you knowingly cheat to steal someone else's glory I don't want anything to do with you and I will do whatever I can to stop it.




Have Fun
Re: Nacra Class Rules [Re: Jake] #282853
06/09/16 04:30 PM
06/09/16 04:30 PM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,658
Florida Suncoast, Dunedin Caus...
catman Offline
Pooh-Bah
catman  Offline
Pooh-Bah

Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,658
Florida Suncoast, Dunedin Caus...
Originally Posted by Jake
In all honesty, there are several ways to measure a sail. There are very simple methods and exceptionally complex methods. A computer, that is giving you the exact computed sail cloth area, will deviate significantly from any simplified point to point manual measurement system. You can only get a precise manual sail measurement if you use a lot of calculus and intend to spend a few days on it. Manual sail measurement systems make an approximation of the sail area and good sail makers not only understand exactly what measurement system is specified by a particular class but how to wiggle in a little extra sail area and still measure in.

You need to know the sail area and the method used to measure it before you can really compare sails. For instance; the F18 class used to have their own sail measurement method before they became an ISAF class and had to adopt the ISAF measurement system (which was a little more complex and time consuming). Just laying sails on top of each other will not give you a very good picture of how they "measure in".

But, again, we're seriously splitting and resplitting hairs here.

How does SCHRS handle non-factory sails?


I understand what your saying. It's just hard to believe almost 30sqft difference in a sail that size.


Have Fun
Re: Nacra Class Rules [Re: abbman] #282854
06/09/16 08:43 PM
06/09/16 08:43 PM
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 774
Greenville SC
bacho Offline
old hand
bacho  Offline
old hand

Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 774
Greenville SC
My sail software can spit out very different numbers than the notes from the ISAF measurer notes. Seems like further digging was needed to get to the bottom of the situation. I can bet the guy would give the sailmaker more credit than you.

Page 2 of 3 1 2 3

Moderated by  Damon Linkous 

Search

Who's Online Now
1 registered members (Damon Linkous), 50 guests, and 334 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
wgilmour, Jacob7876, Wozza, kvc0615, CaptainAhab
8007 Registered Users
Top Posters(30 Days)
phill 1
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics22,375
Posts266,972
Members8,007
Most Online1,650
Sep 10th, 2019
--Advertisement--
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1