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It shouldn't be a surprise... [Re: David Ingram] #28542
07/16/04 09:13 AM
07/16/04 09:13 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline
Carpal Tunnel
John Williams  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
There were several HCA membership-building events this year, not the least of which was a successful Worlds here in North America. How many people do you know, in ALL multihull classes, that join their class association just before nationals and when they have to do so in order to compete. Wouldn't surprise me if there were a lot of renewing members that hadn't been on the books in a while. The same thing happens even at Alter Cup.

Increased membership is a good thing - it gives the national organizations what they need to implement the will of the members, including education and other important programs. Don't wait - join early, join often. We're all eligible for membership in more than just one sailing organization. Plus, if you're a member, you get a role in steering the organization.

I'll climb down, now.


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: It shouldn't be a surprise... [Re: John Williams] #28543
07/16/04 09:37 AM
07/16/04 09:37 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 285
Hampton, Virginia
Tracie Offline
enthusiast
Tracie  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 285
Hampton, Virginia
Quote
How many people do you know, in ALL multihull classes, that join their class association just before nationals and when they have to do so in order to compete. Wouldn't surprise me if there were a lot of renewing members that hadn't been on the books in a while.

Increased membership is a good thing - it gives the national organizations what they need to implement the will of the members, including education and other important programs. Don't wait - join early, join often. We're all eligible for membership in more than just one sailing organization. Plus, if you're a member, you get a role in steering the organization.



You da' man. Well said.

Tracie

Re: It shouldn't be a surprise... [Re: Tracie] #28544
07/16/04 09:52 AM
07/16/04 09:52 AM

A
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
A



I AGREE WITH THE GET ON THE BANDWAGON APPROACH TO A NATIONAL EVENT!

It only serves to inflate numbers. And, we are talking about H16s/Tigers right? The only reason I stay a member is I support multihull sailing, not by particular brand.
BC

Re: Fleets open to all cats #28545
07/16/04 11:01 AM
07/16/04 11:01 AM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 98
TedZ Offline
journeyman
TedZ  Offline
journeyman

Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 98
side tracked, I know of the major clubs like CRAM, OCRA, & CRAW. But was wondering which fleets will remain open?
Ted

Re: Fleets open to all cats [Re: TedZ] #28546
07/16/04 12:46 PM
07/16/04 12:46 PM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
Mary Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
Mary  Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
I think it should be up to the Hobie fleets, when they publish their 2005 schedules, to indicate what events are "Open" and what events are "Hobie only."

At this point probably a lot of them do not yet know what they are going to do next year when the new policy goes into effect. It's kind of early to ask that question.

I know some are waiting to see if the policy is going to stand or be rescinded.

It would be nice if a vote could be taken of the HCA membership to see what the majority of the sailors and the fleets would prefer, but apparently that is not an option.

Re: Fleets open to all cats [Re: Mary] #28547
07/16/04 01:34 PM
07/16/04 01:34 PM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 38
dickcnacra52 Offline
newbie
dickcnacra52  Offline
newbie

Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 38
As a person new to sailing a Cat ( Nacra 5.2) I have been reading all of this and am fairly astounded at some of the attitudes and concepts presented in these answers. Down here at Dixie Sailing Club we are having to work our butts off to get folks to come to regattas, no matter what the boat is, monohull or Cat. With a hobby/sport that seems to need all the entrants that it can get, we work hard to get more to come, not tell folks you can't race because of the type of cat you have, or try to divide it up into so small of fleets there is no real racing to be done.

Here is an open comment to any and all types of cat sailors - if you are ever in Alabama and want to come racing at Dixie Sailing Club, you are welcome, no matter what kind of cat you have. We race every weekend from March thru mid December, and every race is free to visitors. If you are worried about not having good enough competition, every week we have the Catalina 22 Gold Fleet National Champion from last year, and this years #2, and 3 other Gold Fleet national level racers. We cat folks don't care what you sail, just so long as we can give those C22 guys a little work. Know that you are welcome to join us, regardless of what type cat you have. You want any more info, feel free to drop me an e-mail.

Dick

NO! That is simply not correct [Re: John Williams] #28548
07/16/04 04:26 PM
07/16/04 04:26 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
Carpal Tunnel
David Ingram  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
I have little to NO say in US Sailing.

We all know how much say the HCA allows

I join because we have to! Other than the D-PN data and the rule book US Sailing really doesn't do anything for me. As for education... who is being educated and what is being taught? What impact is US Sailing making at the regional level beyond insureance?

I'm all for joining an orgaization, but give me a say and make an impact that directly benefits me.

Granted I'm a bit of an anarchiest and I don't believe in organization for the sake of organization. But show me a tangable benefit that is at the regional level and I'll beat the drum louder than anyone.

Ding


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Actually, too true... [Re: David Ingram] #28549
07/16/04 06:51 PM
07/16/04 06:51 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline
Carpal Tunnel
John Williams  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
Hey Dave -

It's partially my fault if you think you don't have a say in what happens within US SAILING and particularly on the Multihull Council. This post is long-winded, but stick with me for a minute.

As a US SAILING member, you are automatically an associate member of the Council and are welcome and encouraged (begged, really) to attend any of the meetings. As a representative of the Performance Class Association, since you’re an I-20 owner, you can vote at those meetings. Your expenses for attending the meetings are tax deductible - you get the documentation you need for your tax return in your registration pack. Some examples of the sorts of things discussed and decided at the meetings can be seen at http://www.ussailing.org/multihull/reports.htm.

One of the biggest tasks the Council has is administering the ladder events that lead to the Championship and the Championship itself. Your participation in the Area Eliminations the last couple of years is what makes the Multihull Championship possible. I know that you aren't always able to travel to the qualifier, but we try to move the venue from year to year - this year it's in Melbourne in November (see http://www.ussailing.org/alter/alter05/elims0405.htm).

Tangible benefits at the regional level? People you know, and maybe you sometimes, compete in the ladder event to qualify for the Championship. People you know, and maybe you sometimes, go to the Championship. There are other US SAILING championships that you are eligible to compete for as well, assuming you could bring yourself to get on a dinghy or day sailor… Alex and Rick are Area D multihull sailors that have gone to the Championship of Champions.

When you qualified for the Alter Cup in Clearwater, US SAILING paid the charter fee on the boats used, saving you $500. Each year, the venue and boat to be selected for the Championship are discussed at length. Say, for example, you had an issue with CCSC or with Bimare, who was supplying the boats. As a member of the Council, you could have come to the meetings in Marina del Rey or Cincinnati and made your case. Can't make the meeting? Tell your Area Representative (that's me) what's eating you, and it's my job to take it to the table. I get e-mails and phone calls all the time, 90% of which are about Portsmouth numbers. Some of the calls aren't related to ratings - for example, the ARC 22 guys wanted to be able to compete in the Eliminations, but the rules stipulated "under 22-feet." The rule got changed. People in the Carolinas and Georgia complained that they couldn’t make the Eliminations. Area D got split.

That's all just related to multihulls specifically. Make a meeting and wander the halls a bit - as a member, you get to sit in for just about anything that's going on – choosing off the published agenda can be tough. Don't like one of the rules? Sit in with the rules committee. Safety equipment on offshore races bugging you? There's a group working on that, too. Seriously - one voice makes a difference within an organization of volunteers. I've been making the meetings since 2000 and I'm convinced that cat sailors could take over US SAILING if we just showed up. The meetings are scheduled pretty far in advance - http://www.ussailing.org/events/meet04fall/index.htm.

Education? You got it - it's a link right on the home page. Hit http://www.ussailing.org/training/ and take your pick - instructor training, judge and race officer classes and certification, now even power boat classes for people who use their power boats for race committee and coaching. You get free or discounted training, classes and merchandise – I know CCSC offers US SAILING courses. Need some shake-n-bake SIs or course diagrams? Got ‘em. Need a judge or a PRO? No sweat, where do you live? You get discounts on all regattas put on by clubs or organizations that are insured by US SAILING. In addition, you can insure your boat, your club, or your regatta for less.

There are lots of youth programs, too - I wish there were already a multihull-oriented youth program, but that might change now that there will be a multihull division at the ISAF worlds from now on... that happened as a result of volunteers who wanted to see a change. Harry and Tommy just finished up at the Youth Worlds in Poland - your annual dues helped send them there, and it's the first time for multihulls. When you see them in St. Augustine, let them tell you if it was an amazing experience, even if they did stink it up. Your dues send the Olympic team to Athens, too. And guess what – you get a say in how your dues get spent! I know it sounds incredible, but it’s true. All it takes is making the meetings or asking your Rep (again, me) to do it for you.

Let’s talk about it some more in St. Augustine – I don’t want anybody in my Area feeling like they pay their money and don’t get anything for it. Sure, a big box of goodies doesn’t magically show up on your doorstep, but your dues get you a lot if you’ll take advantage.


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: NAHCA bans all non-Hobies from events [Re: Mary] #28550
08/04/04 09:14 PM
08/04/04 09:14 PM
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 8
Rochester, NY
greg1065 Offline
stranger
greg1065  Offline
stranger

Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 8
Rochester, NY
The problem seems to be to this newbie with open minded eyes is simple, MONEY. Hobie supports the racing circuit with financing at the national and international level with raffle prizes and maybe insurance at the local level, not to mention the support of the local dealers for regattas. Hobie wants to recoup that money as well as maybe become a monopoly along the way which any good capitalistic company does. As a consumer, we want competition. So maybe the problem isn’t Hobie. Maybe the problem is Performance Cats or the other manufacturers. Where is their support? Why isn’t their racing circuit much stronger? I’m new to all of this, but I haven’t seen much from Hobie’s competitors. As I understand it, even when there is an open event, the overwhelming majority of boats are Hobies. As I see it there are 2 ways to go.

1. Go entirely Hobie and say goodbye to competitive manufacturing. This is not necessarily negative. There simply may not be enough of a marketplace to support more than 1 manufacturer in the field of beach cat racing in today’s world.

Or

2. Organize completely independent from the manufacturers. NASCAR races with the support of all major car manufacturers without excluding any. For large boat regattas they are often supported by several manufacturers. My guess is that Hobie US and the local dealers will continue to support the regattas without the moniker HOBIE on the NOR, albeit maybe not as strongly, but this would also open the door to the other manufacturers to fill the gap. As far as I can tell, most regattas would survive without the Hobie name and the loss of their points which don’t really seem to matter too much anyways. With a strong national combined circuit, points would matter. This would make the strong racing enthusiast happy and still provide the openness that fosters growth in the sport. Exclusivity never grew anything but resentment. Yes, I know there already are some independent organizations, but they certainly don’t compare to the strength of the Hobie racing circuit. Maybe this is the time for those independents to soak up the fleets that Hobie is willing to lose to create this strong circuit. A strong independent circuit would put the consumer back in a position of power forcing the manufacturers to compete to be a part of the circuit and not in the position of handing down edicts from above.

I don’t mean to sound like a Hobie heretic. I am a proud new Tiger owner and have an appreciation for the original inventor of a product, but I also would like to see competition from manufacturers to keep costs down and see continued refinements in the boats which is of course against the idea of single class racing which really isn’t single class racing because the boats change a little each year but are still single class... ARRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGHHHH!!!. Do any of you old time racers know how ridiculous some of this stuff seems to a new person? Why can’t we just get the fastest boats racing on the water? Am I the only one who wants to race on a carbon fiber boat like Lance Armstrong’s BICYCLE? I don’t want to hear about how single class racing makes the best racing because the boats are the same. Bullogna! The best racers buy new sails every year at a cost of $3000 for a Tiger and upgrade to new boats every other year. That’s not the same as competing with a person with a 5 year old boat with 5 year old sails!?! I guess I’m just going to just drink a couple shots, try to clear my head, and try to remember I just got into racing to become a better sailor anyways.

Sorry, just the ramblings of a newbie.

Re: NAHCA bans all non-Hobies from events [Re: Mary] #28551
08/05/04 06:50 AM
08/05/04 06:50 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,911
South Florida & the Keys
arbo06 Offline
Pooh-Bah
arbo06  Offline
Pooh-Bah

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,911
South Florida & the Keys
What the @#%& does ’t mean?


Eric Arbogast
ARC 2101
Miami Yacht Club
Re: NAHCA bans all non-Hobies from events [Re: arbo06] #28552
08/05/04 07:37 AM
08/05/04 07:37 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
It happens when you edit something in microsoft word and paste it to the forum...it's the apostrophies and such that just don't translate properly in the paste method.


Jake Kohl
Re: NAHCA bans all non-Hobies from events [Re: arbo06] #28553
08/08/04 10:38 AM
08/08/04 10:38 AM
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 8
Rochester, NY
greg1065 Offline
stranger
greg1065  Offline
stranger

Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 8
Rochester, NY
Don't know. I didn't put it there.

Re: NAHCA bans all non-Hobies from events [Re: greg1065] #28554
08/08/04 10:55 AM
08/08/04 10:55 AM
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 8
Rochester, NY
greg1065 Offline
stranger
greg1065  Offline
stranger

Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 8
Rochester, NY
I fixed the original and reposted below.


The problem seems to be to this newbie with open minded eyes is simple, MONEY. Hobie supports the racing circuit with financing at the national and international level and with raffle prizes and maybe insurance at the local level, not to mention the support of the local dealers for regattas. Hobie wants to recoup that money as well as maybe become a monopoly along the way which any good capitalistic company does. As a consumer, we want competition. So maybe the problem isn't Hobie. Maybe the problem is Performance Cats or the other manufacturers. Where is their support? Why isn't their racing circuit much stronger? I'm new to all of this, but I haven't seen much from Hobie's competitors. As I understand it, even when there is an open event, the overwhelming majority of boats are Hobies. As I see it there are 2 ways to go.

1. Go entirely Hobie and say goodbye to competitive manufacturing. This is not necessarily negative. There simply may not be enough of a marketplace to support more than 1 manufacturer in the field of beach cat racing in today's world or more appropriately, the U.S..

Or

2. Organize completely independent from the manufacturers. NASCAR races with the support of all major car manufacturers without excluding any. For large boat regattas they are often supported by several manufacturers. My guess is that Hobie US and the local dealers will continue to support the regattas without the moniker HOBIE on the NOR, albeit maybe not as strongly, but this would also open the door to the other manufacturers to fill the gap. As far as I can tell, most regattas would survive without the Hobie name and the loss of their points which don't really seem to matter too much anyways. With a strong national combined circuit, points would matter. This would make the strong racing enthusiast happy and still provide the openness that fosters growth in the sport. Exclusivity never grew anything but resentment. Yes, I know there already are some independent organizations, but they certainly don't compare to the strength of the Hobie racing circuit. Maybe this is the time for those independents to soak up the fleets that Hobie is willing to lose to create this strong circuit. A strong independent circuit would put the consumer back in a position of power forcing the manufacturers to compete to be a part of the circuit and not in the position of handing down edicts from above.

I don't mean to sound like a Hobie heretic. I am a proud new Tiger owner and have an appreciation for the original inventor of a product, but I also would like to see competition from manufacturers to keep costs down and see continued refinements in the boats which is of course against the idea of single class racing which really isn't single class racing because the boats change a little each year but are still single class... ARRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGHHHH!!!. Do any of you old time racers know how ridiculous some of this stuff seems to a new person? Why can't we just get the fastest boats racing on the water? Am I the only one who wants to race on a carbon fiber boat like Lance Armstrong's BICYCLE? I don't want to hear about how single class racing makes the best racing because the boats are the same. Bullogna! The best racers buy new sails every year at a cost of $3000 for a Tiger and upgrade to new boats every other year. That's not the same as competing with a person with a 5 year old boat with 5 year old sails!?! I guess I'm just going to just drink a couple shots, try to clear my head, and try to remember I just got into racing to become a better sailor anyways.

Sorry, just the ramblings of a newbie.

Re: NAHCA bans all non-Hobies from events [Re: Jake] #28555
08/08/04 01:25 PM
08/08/04 01:25 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,911
South Florida & the Keys
arbo06 Offline
Pooh-Bah
arbo06  Offline
Pooh-Bah

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,911
South Florida & the Keys
Oh.


Eric Arbogast
ARC 2101
Miami Yacht Club
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