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Re: 14-foot Formula-style Class? [Re: dannyb9] #29052
02/06/04 10:30 AM
02/06/04 10:30 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 198
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davidtilley Offline
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How about an all American 14 square? (no metric metres here).
14 feet long, max 14 feet wide and max 14 x 14 = 196 sq feet of sail.
Forget about fair. At a skinny 220#, 14 feet aint gonna be fair to me 80% of the time, but I wont complain.
Seriously, this is a good idea, because there are some radical hull shapes that work only on short, high volume hulls, so this may be an oportunity to make a shorter,cheaper,kinda gentler, fast enough boat to revive sailing.
Also, cheaper and easier allows quicker development, (like electronics).
I'll further bore you with my favorite joke now. "If Mechanical Engineering had advanced as fast as Electronic Engineering, you could buy a Rolls Royce for two cents, and it would be the size of a matchbox". (yes, it is relevant to the thread)

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: - [Re: Bob_Curry] #29053
02/06/04 11:16 AM
02/06/04 11:16 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 800
MI
sail6000 Offline
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sail6000  Offline
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Hi Bob

I,m very interested in this class as a SC 15 owner which was mentioned as part of it along with the P-15 and others .

My post was enthusiastic and positive and related my experience in reviving an older cat very inexpensively ,
Idealy I would like my boys ages 12 9 & 7 to begin in a catamaran class w spin that we could modify and work on together .
This proposed 14-15 class sounds ideal .
The alternative is joining one of the local dingy sailing clubs to get them going ,-University of Mich ,sailing club
or Midwest Sailing Center.

This is a great Formula 14-15 class concept as John noted . There is no reason this same concept should not be applied in each length category -14s 16 18 20s

The basis for this 14-15 class as proposed, if read correctly, is a very informal fun rule outline Formula class setting basic Length beam weight sail area mast height etc .

The model it is based on is Formula class concepts as similarly started a decade ago per Formula 18 . The Formula 18 was the concept of a group of catsailors that much like the group here offered their ideas and proposed concepts and rules outline for a potential fun popular class of cat. Since these classes are based on basic boat specifications -Length beam weight sail area -mast hgt .etc in design measurement .
One big advantage they had was already being familiar with design measurement per ISAF rating which uses sail area- Length weight etc to rate boats , here was an excellent guideline of basic boat specs. and how sail area ,or weight or L etc effect speed and rating number which the understanding of logically then lead to Formula Classes like this 14-15 class now being proposed .

It seems a much more integral benificial rating system long term that helps and encourages good class racing and helps people understand the progression into similar race groups or idealy classes like this one by providing basic guidelines as to ideal max. class specs. that boats in length category may be modified to giving each nearly identical basic speed potential. Formula Class rules that encourage all boats to modify equally and race first across the win wins being the goal ,-with similar rating system guideline to help establish them .

The F-18 and A-Class being two of the best examples currently of this type of limited development class ,each length or type having there own preferred variations on the concept theme of design measurement.

In simply proposing concepts -as per similar interest in other length category , or making others aware of another optional rating system available that may be much more benificial longterm , no disrespect was ever intended towards any .

The intent is positive ,as always ,
All the best Bob

Carl


Last edited by sail6000; 02/06/04 12:03 PM.
facts [Re: sail6000] #29054
02/06/04 11:29 AM
02/06/04 11:29 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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Wouter  Offline
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>>The Formula 18 was the concept of a group of UK catsailors that much like


Carl, the F18 idea and concept was a French idea made succesful by three small (french - italian) cat builders. Mattia, Alado and a third that I can't remember.

http://www.f18-international.org/history.htm

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: mia culpa [Re: Wouter] #29055
02/06/04 11:43 AM
02/06/04 11:43 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 800
MI
sail6000 Offline
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sail6000  Offline
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thanks for the correction --my error

Read the UK catsailor site too often
http://www.catamaran.co.uk/
like this site brought to my attention by a number of U K catsailors like Colin --who wrote sail wave and provides it for us all ,--John P -designer of the Stealth and Formula class cats ,Grob designer of the 4 hull foldable cat , and a few others met at events or by e .

What happened to the 14 idea? [Re: John Williams] #29056
02/06/04 01:16 PM
02/06/04 01:16 PM
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Posts: 3,355
Key Largo, FL and Put-in-Bay, ...
RickWhite Offline

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RickWhite  Offline

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This thread started off talking about an F14 Class and now talking bigger, better, wider, more sail area, and Lord knows what all.
I thought Carl Bohanon was on the right track and keep it 14' and under.
Geez, maybe I can soup up my Wave and stay near you big 14 guys.
As the acronym says: KISS
Rick


Rick White
Catsailor Magazine & OnLineMarineStore.com
www.onlinemarinestore.com
Re: What happened to the 14 idea? [Re: RickWhite] #29057
02/06/04 01:43 PM
02/06/04 01:43 PM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 695
Ft. Pierce, Fl. USA
Seeker Offline
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Seeker  Offline
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Hi Rick

I think it’s K.I.S., if you add the second S you have already made it too complicated…LOL

Bob

Awsome Idea Just what the Cat Community Needs. [Re: John Williams] #29058
02/06/04 05:34 PM
02/06/04 05:34 PM
Joined: Jan 2002
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J
jpayers Offline
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jpayers  Offline
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Posts: 47
Hey Guys,
I think the Catamaran Community needs a small boat that can be raced singlehanded. Everyone has seen the popularity of the Hobie Waves. I have rented a Wave and thought it was a great knock around boat but didn'tI could race it seriously without modifications.
I race the 16ft Isotope and in gusty winds and on several occasions it has sent my 225lb butt flying into the sail. Last year I took out a new Cheshire Cat it didn't have me hiked out the whole time, i didn't pull my arms out on the mainsheet, and the boat stayed under control even when the gusts hit it. It was an awsome boat that had all the pointing and tacking capabilities of a larger boat only was easier to control. I thought it would be perfect for a racing women's singlehander. The downside of the boat was that it takes just as much labor, materials, gear, as a Isotope which would probably put it in the 7k-8k range a far cry from the other plastic boats.
I think one of the things that is hurting the F-16 classes is the constant battle to create a singlehanded and 2-up boat and to be able to compete against each other. In a F-14 Class it would be only singlehanded. Another good Idea would be to only accept boats on a one design basis.

Have a council choose existing boats demand they stick to there one design rules and sail.
Hobie 14 with turbo jib.
Mystere 4.3 with jib
Nacra 5.0 main only
Cheshire with Jib

There would always be a threat of somone building a custom f-14 to beat everyone but I don't see anyone going out and dishing out 12k to race a small boat. Unless they suck as a sailor in other classes but all the money in the world can't help that.
By the way if you search for Isotope or Cheshire you can see the boats.
J.P. the Terrible
Isotope 186 The Shark Boat

Geez! You omitted the Wave [Re: jpayers] #29059
02/06/04 06:37 PM
02/06/04 06:37 PM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,355
Key Largo, FL and Put-in-Bay, ...
RickWhite Offline

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Why not Waves.., they qualify
Rick


Rick White
Catsailor Magazine & OnLineMarineStore.com
www.onlinemarinestore.com
To Those Interested, do we want a Forum! [Re: RickWhite] #29060
02/06/04 06:40 PM
02/06/04 06:40 PM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,355
Key Largo, FL and Put-in-Bay, ...
RickWhite Offline

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RickWhite  Offline

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When the F18 and F16 and F20 were trying get going, we offered a special Forum for them to debate things, write bylaws and all sorts of stuff.
Would you all care for the same thing with the F14 Class. And would it not be funny the USA came up with a unique formula class before Europe?

Rick


Rick White
Catsailor Magazine & OnLineMarineStore.com
www.onlinemarinestore.com
Re: Awsome Idea Just what the Cat Community Needs. [Re: jpayers] #29061
02/06/04 07:05 PM
02/06/04 07:05 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline
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West coast of Norway
Please, make it an 'development' class and not a collection of one designs as suggested.
Cost on a 14 foot boat should be manageable. Perhaps make some rules about where carbon (the large cost driver these days) may be used.

I dont think we will se a fleet of 14 foot C-class knock-offs anyway

Re: Awsome Idea Just what the Cat Community Needs. [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #29062
02/06/04 09:53 PM
02/06/04 09:53 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 744
Bob_Curry Offline
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Okay Y'all, here's the deal....

14' and under.

Bob


"The election is over, the talking is done, Your party lost, my party won. So let us be friends, let arguments pass, I’ll hug my elephant, you kiss you’re a $$.”
Liberalism = A brain eating amoeba & a failed political ideology of the 20th century!
Re: Awsome Idea Just what the Cat Community Needs. [Re: Bob_Curry] #29063
02/06/04 10:33 PM
02/06/04 10:33 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 198
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davidtilley Offline
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davidtilley  Offline
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Here! Here!
Measured either from front to back, or back to front.

Re: Awsome Idea Just what the Cat Community Needs. [Re: davidtilley] #29064
02/06/04 11:48 PM
02/06/04 11:48 PM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 591
Bradenton, FL
Sycho15 Offline
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My opinion:
Length: 14' or less
Beam: 8.5' wide (as much as I agree that wider is better, wider is also more complicated and more work, which goes against what it seems we're really trying to do here. Add wings for a wilder recreational ride, but figure out how to race without them).
Mast length: 24'- these things are nice and light and the extrusions are pretty cheap. No real need for spreaders. I am not against someone showing up with an all-carbon mast, and will gladly race against them with a salvaged H14 stick. Carbon masts may even be relatively cheap to build at these sizes and strengths.
Sail Area: How much sail can you crowd onto a 24' stick? I really wouldn't want to sail a uni-rig if it could be avoided. A roller-furling headsail that could be used up- and down-wind would be great. Something like a really big jib on a pole
Weight: 150-200lbs should cover it, boats could be built in the 100 or less range with exoctic materials that are out of the ability of the average DIY builder-sailor, and out of the price-range of someone just getting into the sport.
Adjustments: I'd give free reign on adjustment ability. I've sailed and raced on Prindle 19s and also on my G-Cat 5.7M. Aside from a few basics, all the extra adjustments just seem to add weight and complexity. A lot of lines to pull would confuse and scare away new people to these boats and this sport. Allow their boats to grow with their skill, and as they get better they can add whatever adjustments they feel they need to.

I would like to comment that I think the Cheshire is an excellent design, but I cannot fathom why it is so narrow (6'5") The cross-beams look like simple mast extrusions and easy enough to replace with wider versions. Also, I'm sure the manufacturer wouldn't mind widening the boat to 8.5' if it meant making the sale.

Also- especially for home-builders, the Quattro 14 design is already out: Quattro 14


G-Cat 5.7M #583 (sail # currently 100) in Bradenton, FL Hobie 14T
Re: Awsome Idea Just what the Cat Community Needs. [Re: Sycho15] #29065
02/07/04 12:18 PM
02/07/04 12:18 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 139
Daytona Beach FL
TheoA Offline
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TheoA  Offline
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Lots of sail! BIG hulls too (so I can race @215)
This sounds like fun. I might have to go rent a wave from someone and try it out. Would have to have a spi or hooter though I think for it to be "fun"


94 N5.5SL
Re: Awsome Idea Just what the Cat Community Needs. [Re: TheoA] #29066
02/07/04 12:34 PM
02/07/04 12:34 PM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,355
Key Largo, FL and Put-in-Bay, ...
RickWhite Offline

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Hi TheoA,
The Wave really is a Hoot in heavy air, but also with a Hooter. That added sail area really makes it come alive. Last year I took second place in the Conch Cup with a Hooter and would have won had they used the right handicap number. Lots of boats in that race as well.

I know in some of the open regattas the Waves and 14s have started together and the 14s are a bit faster, although most of the Waves beat most of the 14s. Don't think that is boat speed, however. Most of the Wave folks are really hot sailors and the 14 folks were kind of new to the boat.
Had Bob Curry been there we would have seen him only briefly at the start.

It took me about a year to get the Hooter to work right on the Wave, but once I found the right dimensions it was fast upwind, downwind and reaches in winds up to around 12 mph -- after that it was too much wind for the Hooter.
Although, at that time I had not used the trapeze. Hmmm! With the Trap it could probably handle a lot more wind -- maybe footstraps on the rear beam?

This class sounds like a lot of fun.
Rick


Rick White
Catsailor Magazine & OnLineMarineStore.com
www.onlinemarinestore.com
Re: Awsome Idea Just what the Cat Community Needs. [Re: RickWhite] #29067
02/07/04 02:24 PM
02/07/04 02:24 PM
Joined: Jan 2002
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jpayers Offline
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Rick,
Sorry for the Wave slam I just didn't think a Stock Wave could race against PN .77-.80 which brngs to my next great idea.

I see that even as this discussion evolves we maybe falling into the exact same problems that the other F-classes jumped into. We are making boat specs requirements and rules before we even have a class yet. That is like excluding paying members to a club that hasen't been formed yet. The first most important goal to this class is to hold a race and see who is actualy game to show up then decide what direction to take the class. (Going to apologize ahead of time Wouter) There is a big difference between who actually shows up and races as a class than who types the most on the forum. It is way more impotant to have a 15 boat class than a good set of rules.

With that in mind we could set up a temporary status of rules. I propose singlehanded portsmith ratings of .77 to .80 boats have to be raced according to one design rules with slower boats H-14 and Wave allowing modifications such as Square tops etc. I would take Rick's opinion over mine as far as what it would take to get a H-14 or Wave in the .77-.80 range. I also think as a class it is a good idea to get these two involved just by the shear numbers.

In case you haven't noticed I am bias to the Cheshire. Back in the early 60's the Cheshire cat was designed and built by Frank Meldau. As a small boat it was way ahead of it's time going to regatta's that had boats in the 20'ft range but was looked at like an aqua-cat. Here we are 40 years later and I think the Cheshire may have a new lease on life with this f-14 class.

If we are all serious about this I could probably make it to the Lake Hartwell Regatta this May.

J.P. the Terrible

Re: -14 &15 classification [Re: sail6000] #29068
02/08/04 09:39 AM
02/08/04 09:39 AM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 284
S. Florida
BRoberts Offline
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BRoberts  Offline
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S. Florida
Hi Carl,
I read that the target PN for this class is in the 80 to 77 range. Your SC15 is already there, old PN = 78.
The PN difference between the SC17 and SC15 was 5 points in the 1980s, 78-73 = 5. At the Tradewinds Race a few weeks ago the ARC17 sailed to, demonstrated, a PN of 70.1. The major difference between the SC17 and ARC17 is square top main and self tacking jib which has a much longer jib luff. Apply this sailplan scheme to the SC15 and you might have a SC15 capable of sailing to a PN of 75. Then add spinnaker and knock it on down to 72. No new technology required.
It sounds like many people interested in this class are talking about taking an old existing platform and working on the rig and sailplan. That's fine, and it is also low cost. What will throw a big bucket of cold water on this class is for someone to build from scratch a superlight weight boat that sails away from everything else because of its weight, not because it is a better design. To get this class going and keep it alive, it must have a minimum weight that is easily attainable. It sounds to me like a rule that says you must use an existing production platform would not be out of line with most sailors objectives. To keep the cost down, keep the minimum weight up.
Good luck,
Bill

Re: Awsome Idea Just what the Cat Community Needs. [Re: Sycho15] #29069
02/08/04 10:11 AM
02/08/04 10:11 AM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 284
S. Florida
BRoberts Offline
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BRoberts  Offline
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Posts: 284
S. Florida
Hey Guys,
What makes a fast boat and a boat that sails easy and smooth is BALANCE and COORDINATION of the parts that make up the system. You can't simply add sail area and have a boat that sails well. If it is a board boat, you have to go up in board area with increased sail area. If it is a boardless boat, the best you can do is rake the mast back and go up in rudder area with increased sail area. Think balance and coordination of the whole system. That makes a fast boat.
Good dreaming,
Bill

New Forum Dedicated to the F14 Now Running! [Re: davidtilley] #29070
02/08/04 11:02 AM
02/08/04 11:02 AM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,355
Key Largo, FL and Put-in-Bay, ...
RickWhite Offline

Carpal Tunnel
RickWhite  Offline

Carpal Tunnel
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Posts: 3,355
Key Largo, FL and Put-in-Bay, ...
OK, Folks,
You now have an exclusive Forum for the discussion and development of the F14 Class. The new Forum is named Formula 14 Forum and is located at http://www.catsailor.com/forums/postlist.php?Cat=&Board=forum14

Of course, you may also reach it by simply clicking on "Main Index" at the top and toggle down to the Forum.

Hoping this helps move the discussions along.
Rick


Rick White
Catsailor Magazine & OnLineMarineStore.com
www.onlinemarinestore.com
Re: -14 &15 classification [Re: BRoberts] #29071
02/08/04 11:27 AM
02/08/04 11:27 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 800
MI
sail6000 Offline
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sail6000  Offline
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MI
hI BILL

Agree --a min. boat weight is important ,-weight is always a main factor of boat performance ,-this factor in the equation increases as a percentage as relative boat size goes down .
Some other class examples evolve into category one and category two sub class with weight variation min. per A cLASS - at 150 Lb Min boat weight in category one and 200 in category 2 --the 18 SQ--some mono classes -- etc.

A new lightweight hi aspect ratio mainsail only version HT 14 type with deep boards and rudders that weighs 50 Lbs less would certainly be much faster potentially than an older H-14 w spin .
It would be much like racing a Formula-18 with an 18 Ht
One weighs nearly 400 -the other under 300 Lbs --2 categories in that length become a necessity ,though all may start together numbers permitting at an event .

It sounds like Carl B --Bob ,-and a few others will establish basic rules and boat specs. It may be a 14 max length ,--not 15 ,--that seems reasonable ,--the class must be clearly defined . There are F 16 -18 --20 classes existing or proposed .
The other method some classes use when boat weights are close to equalize potential speeds is use a larger allowed sail area as compensation for the heavier weight or boat weight,--usually a slightly larger jib and larger spin area for the heavier boat ,-as weight is a factor downwind moreso than up on the race course.

Crew weight is a tough one ---suggest no crew min. weight ,--but just require any crew to be capable of righting .
If your willing ,they should consult with you on basic sail area to weight guidelines or the more technical questions on rules . You can readily provide the basic proven engineering -design equations to substantiate the rules outline and minimum weight --to max sail area sail area questions .

It is a tough challenge to leave out individual bias and personal preferences based on your particular boat and a rule that may favor it . --It seems setting good basic engineering design measurement maximum specifications and then allowing all boat types to equally modify to those as they wish or to what extent is the best method .


Last edited by sail6000; 02/08/04 11:47 AM.
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