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spinnaker on formula14 #29712
02/12/04 02:07 AM
02/12/04 02:07 AM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,012
South Australia
Darryl_Barrett Offline OP
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Darryl_Barrett  Offline OP
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South Australia
From the mid seventy's untill the early '90's we manufactured and sold literally thousands of 14' cats predominately in South Australia. On one of our designs, the Alpha Omega 4.4, which was set up from the factory as a one up on trapeze racing cat, cat rigged, we rigged several with a spinnaker as well. Sailed either one up or with a crew in that configuration ie cat rigged with spinnaker (and an extra trapeze for the crew) it was a truly exciting racing experience. It all worked very well, and the only thing agains it at that time was that there was a lot of resistance from the sailing community. At that time the most common opinion expressed was that "skinnakers belong on mono hulls not on cats". This, even from the cat sailors! It would appear that the general opinion has changed some what with the success of the formula 18's?

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Re: spinnaker on formula14 [Re: Darryl_Barrett] #29713
02/18/04 12:55 AM
02/18/04 12:55 AM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 461
Sydney Australia
Berny Offline
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Ozy cat sailors are a strange bunch. Was the AO setup simple? I'm looking for the simplest setup for my 430.
Bern

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30045-430wknchsW.jpg (1118 downloads)
Re: spinnaker on formula14 [Re: Berny] #29714
02/18/04 06:53 AM
02/18/04 06:53 AM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 84
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fuzzy Offline
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berny,
your 430 looks quite intertesting...Tell me more about it, is it a production boat, or did you home build it..how about some specs on it....looks like it might be the ticket for the f-14 class.......................tr


A-class #19
Re: spinnaker on formula14 [Re: fuzzy] #29715
02/18/04 04:33 PM
02/18/04 04:33 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 461
Sydney Australia
Berny Offline
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Terry, by way of explanation, my involvement with 14ftrs (4.3m here in Oz) goes back some 14yrs. After a lifetime of sailing bigger boats including a 'B' class cat, I bought a Maricat, a one design Hobie 14 inspired Oz 14ftr. A nicer boat to sail than the Hobie 14 but I digress. I campaigned the Maricat for aprox. 8yrs winning the local club championship and class state and national titles. I decided that the 14ftr was a unique class in that it could be sailed easily single handed, was easy to trail, rig, launch and retrieve, and was overdue for an update so I designed and built the 430. It's uni-rigged and much influenced by the A class. It has some interesting features in that the main beam is at 50%, it has minimum 'rocker' i.e., it is quite straight along the bottom which in section is essentially an ellipse, has very little 'vee' and has powerful bows which resist nose-diving when driven hard. The hulls and foils are moulded epoxy E'glass, carbon reinforced foam sandwich, vacuum bagged.
Some specs;
Builder:
Peter Skews Shipwright Services (lay-up)
Designer:
Bern Leslie (me)
Length:
14ft nom. / 4.3m [LWL]
Beam:
7ft.10in / 2.4m (max. Aus)
Displacement:
107lbs / 75kg
Sail area:
main: 145sqft / 13.5sqm
Spinnaker: TBA
Mast Height:
24ft 7ins. / 7.5m
Construction materials:
Hull; Hand laid moulded Epoxy / ‘E’glass / carbon foam sandwich.
Mast and front beam; 50x120mm chemically milled alum. Sail; Mylar.

It really is a great boat. It's just a gem to sail and it's the fastest 14ft cat in Australia by a street and is quicker than some 15ftrs. It actually runs with slower H16's and I have occasionally knocked off the odd TheMightyHobie18 though probably more from sailing skills than actual boat speed. It seems to have no real hang-ups and, in all the time I've raced it, I've never 'put it in'.
While it is a challenging boat to sail, it is not difficult for reasonably competent persons to manage single handed from the trapeze. It is however a high tech. high performance racing sailboat incorporating many innovative design concepts and is suited to those who want excellent performance from a very fast and exciting sailboat.
I developed a set of one design rules and raced the boat in three states over two years in mixed 14ft uni and sloop fleets and if I finished (and mostly I did) I won.
Sadly, no-one here in Australia was interested!
I tried to put a 14ft GP circuit together to promote 14ftrs and the 430 and again I got little interest and a week out from the first round the host club pulled the pin on the requirement for a separate start and course for the 14's.
I lost interest, parked the boat under cover and went bike riding for two years.

Sale price was set in the range $Aus11,000 ($US6,500 aprox.) depending on hardware which was most likely the major stumbling block.

This season I'm back (still winning) and there's a second boat being built. I am at present 185lbs and the boat was designed for a crew of around 170lbs but it still kicks @r$. I'm also looking at a spinnaker but frankly at 62yrs I've got about as much as I can handle with what's already there.
I see F14 as the way to go to get people interested in 14ftrs again and possibly a vehicle to get the 430 (or soon to be F14) back into production.
I'm also looking at maybe doing a set of plans suitable for home building.
Bern

Attached Files
Re: spinnaker on formula14 [Re: Berny] #29716
02/18/04 06:58 PM
02/18/04 06:58 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,012
South Australia
Darryl_Barrett Offline OP
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Darryl_Barrett  Offline OP
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South Australia
Berny, Didn't your 430 appear in "catamaran sailer magazine" some time ago? To answer your question, yes the set up of the spinnaker on the Alpha Omega 4.4 was quite simple. It was very much like the F18's today - a small diameter pole attached at the front beam under and forward of the mast step, a very fine multi flex bridle from the front of each hull rising to the forward end of the underside of the pole, and a top wire attachment between the point of joining of the mast's fore stay and the main bridle. The front bridle to support the pole down against the lift (and the side ways load) of the kite and the second one to support the pole upwards against the downward (and side ways) transfered loads. The halyard ran inside the mast to an outlet approx' 2' above the hounds and to the head of the kite, but then it continued on down the inside of the kite to a location point approx' in the middle of the kite and further down onto the deck attached to the tail of the halyard (making the halyard a continuous sheet for setting and retrieving the kite and having the absolute minimum excess sheet on the deck) The centre attachment to the kite meant that the kite was halved in "lenght when retrieving. It was stored in a bag attached to the trampoline. As it was set with the halyard the tack was automatically pulled out to the end of the pole. Very simple and very easy to set and retrieve one up. You made a few "large" statements when describing the performance of your 430 ie "The fastest 14 in Australia" I would question that a little as, likewise, I think that the 4.4 Alpha Omega was the fastest - it nearly always BEAT the H16 around an olympic, triangular course, not "almost kept up with them" But that is history. What I do know is that our new Alpha Omega 4.3 "Tora", which we prototyped for three years here could be the cat to hold the claim of "the fastest 14 footer any where". Over the prototype time it has proven faster than the H16's (except on a two on wire trapeze reach, but then there still isn't much that can beat a H16 on that point in those conditions even today), and has competed over a vast range of courses and conditions, almost on an even footing with the Hobie Tigers (we have all the records and times to verify this). Still to my way of thinking "whos the fastest etc" is fairly unimportant, the most important thing is to develop and formalise a "formula" that defines "just what is a 14' cat" then we can all get down to the real business of building and racing all under the same umbrella and not fragmented by "classes" and "yardsticks"
Yours Darryl J Barrett

Re: spinnaker on formula14 [Re: Darryl_Barrett] #29717
02/19/04 01:38 AM
02/19/04 01:38 AM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 461
Sydney Australia
Berny Offline
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Berny  Offline
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Sydney Australia
Darryl it's true I've never sailed against a sloop rigged 4.4m ( 14'5"+ ) A/Omega and I've heard they are fast, but I have regularly raced and beaten the Windrush 14 sloop nat. champ amongst other Windies, the best Maricat and Hobie supersloops, 14squ Nacras (@ their state titles), Mozzies, Geminis etc., and always uni-rigged and without spinnaker( I think I'll have to try one ). Originally the mast was shorter with a smaller sail (see pic) and it still was almost never beaten in 14ft fleets. Anyway, as you say it's all academic now and only the future is meaningful given F14.
Your new 4.3 AO sounds awesome, do you have any pics?
Yes I think F14 could be a good thing but I'm not holding my breath here in Oz.
Bern

Attached Files
30131-430vw.rush.jpg (745 downloads)
Last edited by Berny; 02/19/04 01:40 AM.
Re: spinnaker on formula14 [Re: Berny] #29718
02/19/04 10:51 PM
02/19/04 10:51 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,012
South Australia
Darryl_Barrett Offline OP
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South Australia
Berny, We are about to "test the waters" with both a new formula 14 and a new formula 16. They are both based around our previous Alpha Omega 4.4 and 5m cats. Both are completely carbon fibre (hulls mast beams boom spinnaker pole etc. The 14 (4.3) is cat rigged with spinnaker, sailed one up on trapeze or two up on trapeze. The 5m is sloop or cat rigged sailed one up cat rigged with spinnaker or two up sloop rigged with spinnaker. This is the first time in over 15 years that it has felt that the "new cat market" has stopped receeding and is at last starting to expand again.
Darryl

Re: spinnaker on formula14 [Re: Darryl_Barrett] #29719
02/20/04 12:50 AM
02/20/04 12:50 AM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 461
Sydney Australia
Berny Offline
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Berny  Offline
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That's an encouraging outlook Darryl, I hope you're right, not for any other reason but that I think the 14ftr is a great boat and very much overlooked due primarily to the 'bigger is better' mentality of the average male. Silly thing is, they get the big boat, it costs a shirtload of mula, it's a beatch to keep at home, a beast to trail, gut busting to rig, launch and retrieve, and when the crew doesn't turn up they're screwed. Would they go back to a 14 to enjoy their sailing again? Uh Uh! Not big enough. Go figure.
Bern

Attached Files
30218-430.jpg (677 downloads)
Last edited by Berny; 02/20/04 12:51 AM.
Re: spinnaker on formula14 [Re: Berny] #29720
07/07/04 12:21 AM
07/07/04 12:21 AM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 17
E
Emmessee Offline
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Emmessee  Offline
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How long until the AO 4.3 and 5 will be on the water and when is the second 430 being built???


Re: spinnaker on formula14 [Re: Emmessee] #29721
07/07/04 10:37 PM
07/07/04 10:37 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,012
South Australia
Darryl_Barrett Offline OP
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South Australia
The Alpha Omega "TORA" is real close now.
I have been busy making patterns for a whole heap of new aluminum castings for mast base, mast head, etc,etc, and have only recently received the finished products from the foundry. I have also been finishing the new moulds for the carbon fibre diamonds, new rudders, new rudder stocks etc (all in carbon fibre). I also had to change the hull mould from a mounting for the beams to take a mast section for beams to a moulding to take the new carbon fibre round beams.
We are laying up the hulls in the next few weeks (when our other work loads allow) then all that is left is to assemble and sea trials.
Its the "little things" that take up most of the time.

Re: spinnaker on formula14 [Re: Darryl_Barrett] #29722
07/07/04 10:41 PM
07/07/04 10:41 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,012
South Australia
Darryl_Barrett Offline OP
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South Australia
At least all the work that we have been doing on the F14 will save us a lot of time when we concentrate fully on the F16 as all the components ie mast, beams, spreaders, C/boards, rudders, rudder stocks etc etc are the same

Re: spinnaker on formula14 [Re: Darryl_Barrett] #29723
07/08/04 04:35 AM
07/08/04 04:35 AM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 461
Sydney Australia
Berny Offline
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Berny  Offline
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Sydney Australia
I didn't know you were doing an F16 Darryl
Bern

Re: spinnaker on formula14 [Re: Berny] #29724
07/08/04 08:16 PM
07/08/04 08:16 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,012
South Australia
Darryl_Barrett Offline OP
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South Australia
We always had a 14, 16, & 18 ft range of Alpha Omega cats Berny and they all were fitted with spinnakers, so it is not such a big deal to put an F14 an F16 and perhaps a little later on, an F18 back onto the water
Darryl

Re: spinnaker on formula14 [Re: Darryl_Barrett] #29725
07/09/04 02:06 AM
07/09/04 02:06 AM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 461
Sydney Australia
Berny Offline
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Berny  Offline
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So just what is this thing then?
http://www.catsailor.com/bb_files/2012
Bern

Re: spinnaker on formula14 [Re: Berny] #29726
07/09/04 02:11 AM
07/09/04 02:11 AM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,012
South Australia
Darryl_Barrett Offline OP
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Darryl_Barrett  Offline OP
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South Australia
That was my half arsed, totaly failed attempt to post a photo Berny, and it pisses me that nearly every one else seems to have no problem in posting photos. ARRRRRRH NUTS!!!

Re: spinnaker on formula14 [Re: Darryl_Barrett] #29727
07/10/04 03:29 AM
07/10/04 03:29 AM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 461
Sydney Australia
Berny Offline
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Gees, I'm not sure about this spinnaker on 14's thing. I mean I designed the 430 after the 'A' class concept to produce an easy boat to manage on the hard and a nice boat to sail on the water. It has been a success in both areas and has given me several good years of competitive sailing with limited hassles and lots of great fun.

I'm now far enough down the road toward fitting a spinnaker to realise that I'm making a very nice (IMHO), reasonably simple uncomplicated boat very complicated.
At present it takes just a bit longer to rig than a 'normal', 14 i.e. Hobie, Maricat, etc. I don't trail the 430 with the rudders attached and it carries a spanner which needs to be set up so it takes just a few minutes longer to rig, but when the kite is up and running it'll take a shirtload of additional time to put the thing together and pull it apart again.
I'm really NOT keen to make my sailing significantly more difficult than it already is. I can't believe the amount of extra stuff that's needed to carry a kite, and I presently furl rather than snuff.
Maybe I'm gettin' old but it really does seem like it's all just too freekin' hard. Sure it'll go faster but then so does a speed boat, so what?
Bern

Re: spinnaker on formula14 [Re: Berny] #29728
07/11/04 06:45 PM
07/11/04 06:45 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,012
South Australia
Darryl_Barrett Offline OP
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South Australia
It's a small price to pay for all the additional "FUN" berny! besides it's like all things new, it only becomes easier the more familiar you are with it.
Personally I agree with you about the "A" class concept for a 14' cat! I really like the "purety" of a 14' set up cat rigged within an "A" class style formula, I don't even like carrying a jib on a cat unless there is a crew. But it appears that the market place is dictating a spinnaker at the present!

It's worth it, IMO... [Re: Berny] #29729
07/12/04 06:20 AM
07/12/04 06:20 AM
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Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline
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Long Beach, California
Bern and Darryl -

The Mystere 4.3 is a set-up-intesive boat to be sure - has everything you find on a Nacra 20, really, with a two-part spin pole and snuffer bag. Each setup takes me no less than 45 minutes - step the mast, tension the rig, off the trailer and track to a good spot in the sand, set up the pole and bag, fly the 'chute once on the beach to check lines and lube on the takedown. Then I get the main up and tension battens. Jib goes up last and gets wrapped around the forestay if it's breezy until I get myself dressed and the cooler stuffed. Long 'bout then, it's off to the skipper's meeting to see what's what and pay the fee. One last quick trip to the 'loo, finish off the coffee, and it's "shove off, mate." When I was exclusively crewing, all of that took half the time with two pairs of hands ('cept the 'loo part, of course).

She breaks down a little quicker, of course, but I'm usually not in a big rush and paying more attention to a cold beer and some tall tales.

I have a simpler boat - the Wave. Step the mast, up with the main, shove off. It's fun, but definitely not the same as the thrills I get on the 4.3 with the 'chute up. The Wave is a good time, the 4.3 continues to make me a better sailor. Would like to add the self-tacker to manage the jib better, but wouldn't take the spin off for love nor money. I appreciate the A-cat simplicity, and I've seen them win consistently against boats with more sails, but for now, I'm all about being "three sheets to the wind."


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: It's worth it, IMO... [Re: John Williams] #29730
07/12/04 05:53 PM
07/12/04 05:53 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 461
Sydney Australia
Berny Offline
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I had a couple of years off prior to last season. As a mature aged sailor I was getting a bit tired of the 'rig, launch the fleet, race (best bit), retrieve the fleet, de-rig ritual'. I race every Satdy at our river club from September to end April and do the odd 2/3 day regatta. We have roughly 10/15 14ft cats each week at the club to dolly across the grass to the sandy beach and into the river. While putting them in isn't too painful, dragging the buggers out across the sand and up the grassy slope is a bloody pain in the proverbial ar$.
As I said, it all got too hard and so because of that, and some other issues which I wont go into, I gave it all up and parked the boat.
I've been riding my 'sit down and walk' (bicycle) for the last six years and I'm now a lot fitter but really, I just see it getting all too difficult again and the most frustrating thing is I'm loading up the boat with all this clobber which is a bit like dressing up parade float and somehow sacrilegious.
I mean you wouldn't put a kite on an 'A' (well I wouldn't anyway).
Apart from all that, one of the big, big attributes of 14ft sailing IS the low cost simplicity of having a smaller, more manageable boat and a cat rigged 14 is the epitome of that philosophy. No, I'm not convinced the 430 needs a kite, not with me on it anyway.
Bern

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Re: It's worth it, IMO... [Re: Berny] #29731
07/13/04 04:29 AM
07/13/04 04:29 AM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 612
Cape Town, South Africa
Steve_Kwiksilver Offline
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Hey Berny,
I thought much the same as you when I first put the kite on the Mozzie, but after a while you simplify everything as much as you can, and leave as much on the boat as possible so that re-rigging next time is easier. We park our boats on the trailer under roof, so mast-down. I leave spinn. halyard, blocks, pole & snuffer attached to boat, everything lese comes off. I reckon the kite adds 15-20min. of rigging time before & after the sailing, but it`s worth it.
I could never go back to sailing without the kite - it`s so bad that if we take the kite down a bit too early before the leeward mark, it feels like ages before you get to the mark under main & jib alone. Don`t think I could sail a whole leg at that speed. It just feels like the wind dropped by 10knots.
I suppose it`s a personal thing, if you like the easy setup without kite, and your boat goes well enough without it, keep it like it is, but if you`d like to harass the bigger boats downwind (and who doesn`t !) then the kite is not optional.

Cheers
Steve

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