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Re: Why I decided... [Re: Wouter] #29752
07/18/04 07:44 PM
07/18/04 07:44 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,012
South Australia
Darryl_Barrett Offline OP
old hand
Darryl_Barrett  Offline OP
old hand

Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,012
South Australia
Hey Wouter, I don't think that a V10 motor will fit in any of my cats!!! (he he he)
But seriously though (sounds like a Monty Python movie, "but seriously folks"), wouldn't we cover all the bases if we were to adopt both a formula 14 AND a 14a class for the 14' cats??
The formula 14 would encompass any new F14 style cats with spinnaker, as well as ALL the existing cats (with or without spinnaker) and the 14A would fit all the new designed F14 cats sailing WITHOUT their spinnakers?
To me that would represent the best of all worlds! Every configuration that any sailor could wish to sail with would be catered for with the least amount of disruption and the greatest amount of participation??
Darryl

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Re: Why I decided... [Re: Darryl_Barrett] #29753
07/19/04 06:28 AM
07/19/04 06:28 AM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 612
Cape Town, South Africa
Steve_Kwiksilver Offline
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Steve_Kwiksilver  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 612
Cape Town, South Africa
Hi Darryl, Bernie, Wouter & anyone else interested.
I think what we`ve learned from F16 growth & non-growth in certain areas can perhaps give some valuable insight as to what might or might not work.
Firstly, from this thread alone it`s clear to see that F14/16 must grow in different regions in different ways, such that it promotes the greatest level of interest in the specific region. In F16 this has lead to allowing non-optimised F16 boats such as the Mosquito to become "part of the class" which has helped F16 get a foot in the door in countries where it could otherwise not exist, like South Africa, and has been beneficial to both parties.
Locally you might have to improvise on the class structure to get buy-in from local sailors - At Bernie`s club this might mean having a spin. & non-spin. class separately if numbers allow, or perhaps racing on handicap within the class which seems to work for them now. Ultimately spinnakers will filter into the 14ft open class, it is still just as important to attract sailors who don`t wish to sail with one for whatever reason - you might win them over in time, but not if they lose interest & pack it in to take up another sport.
I think the US guys are on the right track, get as many sailors of older generation 14fters to upgrade what they have & compete with newer 14`s such as the Mystere. That way the new generation boats don`t make the older ones obsolete.

Good luck in making it happen !

Cheers
Steve

Re: Why I decided... [Re: Steve_Kwiksilver] #29754
07/19/04 12:11 PM
07/19/04 12:11 PM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 591
Bradenton, FL
Sycho15 Offline
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Sycho15  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 591
Bradenton, FL
Honestly, if someone wants to sail uni, they'll likely buy an A-cat. Spinnaker sailing is more speed and more fun. More "wow" to those sailing and those watching.

It's like the Chevy v8 conversion for the Pontiac Fiero....


G-Cat 5.7M #583 (sail # currently 100) in Bradenton, FL Hobie 14T
Re: Why I decided... [Re: Sycho15] #29755
07/19/04 07:07 PM
07/19/04 07:07 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,012
South Australia
Darryl_Barrett Offline OP
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Darryl_Barrett  Offline OP
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,012
South Australia
Hi Steve, Hi Brian,
The box rule that has been "kicked" around here. if it is encompassed will hopefully obviate any problems for all "14" cats. There are two drafts. one to cover all new F14 cats AND incorporate ALL the existing 14' cats as well and another box rule for an "A" class 14' cat, that is esentually a cat built to the "new" F14 rule BUT sailed without a spinnaker, (it can be converted simply by adding the spinnaker) Both "box rules" would be incorpoated within the constitution for a new association for 14' cats.
It would appear that it is necessary to have an F14 rule for any "new" designs that are built expressly within the box rule (as opposed to all the various size and shaped "existing" 14' cats), and similarly for a non spinnakered version of the same ie new designs built within the box rule.
This will then cover and include ALL 14' cats equatibly with the maximum of harmony
I will include below the two potentual "box rules"


The “Box rule” governing an F14 catamaran is –

1. L.O.A. of the hulls (excluding any “T foils, rudders and all rudder fittings) 4.34 metres
2. Maximum Beam Overall 2.5 metres
3. Mast Height, unrestricted, although the mast can only
form a percentage of the total sail area of no more than 15%
of the mainsail area, i.e. no “solid” wing sail
(articulated or not).
All the sails shall be of a “soft” fabric type
4. Maximum Sail Area (including half the area of the
mast bounded by the luff length of the main sail), shall not exceed 27.87 sq metres (300 sq feet)
This maximum area includes the combination of the
areas of ALL sails whether there be a mains’l, a jib,
and a spinnaker, or any combination there of.
The measurements of all the sails shall be by the calculation of the “actual” sail area.
5. Construction materials are unrestricted
6. Minimum Weight (all up sailing weight minus crew) 50 kgs
7. “T” foils (not hydrofoils) used primarily, ONLY for the stablelization of pitch, and only if attached to, or forming part of the rudders, or attached to the aft underside of the hull within 300mm of the transoms, and that the angle of “attack” of the “T” foils are non adjustable whilst sailing, are allowed. No attached foil shall exceed the width of the allowable beam of the catamaran, as allowed within this box rule.
8. Closed cell foam buoyancy is required to be fixed internally in the hulls, sufficient to maintain the vessel, and its crew,
in the upright position, with the hulls at, or above the
surface of the water, when one or both hulls are
completely full of water.
9. Number and weight of crew are unrestricted. (with reference to “Crew and Crew Weight” in the preceding section of the class rules)
10. Any spinnaker pole, or spinnaker pole fittings shall not protrude further forward of the forward most point of the bows (measured at 90 degrees from the centre of a line connecting the two most forward parts of the bows of each hull), by more than one metre.
11. All 14’ catamarans, designed and “on the water”, before the incorporation of this constitution, that have a hull length no greater than 14'6", and carry a sail area, (inclusive of all the working sails, including half the area of the mast bounded by the luff length of the main sail, and a spinnaker/reacher) no greater than 300 sq ft IN TOTAL, can race with, and compete against, the F14 catamarans designed and built to conform within this "box rule", on an equal, "across the line first wins". Albeit that they, (the pre existing 14' catamarans) shall be allocated an appropriate handicap/rating (per class of catamaran), for their finishing times against each other (that is the pre existing 14' designed catamarans) for competition within their own "division", exclusive of the "new" F14 catamarans.
12. From time to time, by an agreed vote of the membership of the F14 catamaran association, catamarans that do not fit within the preceding “box rule” definitions (from item no 1. through to item 11. inclusive) may be allowed inclusion to sail/compete with and against all those catamarans that comply to the afore mentioned items 1. through to and including item 11. by being afforded an appropriate handicap/rating, designed to keep all racing results fair and equitable between different “classes” of catamarans so competing.





4.3metre, “A” class,
“box” rules for“ open” development class catamaran.

The craft must be a catamaran, having two identical hulls of equal volume, with the rudders attached at/to the transom/s i.e. not extended out from the stern of the craft so as to effectively “extend” the waterline length of the hull/s.

Maximum hull length
(excluding rudders & rudder fittings)
4.34 metres
Maximum beam (over all)
2.5 metres
Mast height unrestricted, although
the mast can only form a percentage
of the total sails area of no more than 15%
of the mainsail area, i.e. no “solid” wing
sail (articulated or not). All the sails shall be
of a “soft” fabric type

Maximum sail area, including half the area of
the mast, bounded by the luff length of the main sail,
(without wrinkles or folds in the luff). The sail shall be of a single “laminate”.
145.31 sq ft 13.5 sq metres

Minimum, all up sailing weight
i.e. hulls, beams, mast, boom, all rigging and
sheeting, rudders, centre/dagger boards, in
fact the entire cat excluding only the sail(s)
and crew
111 lb (imp’) 50 KG
Crew unrestricted

Construction material unrestricted

Hydrofoils.
“Hydrofoils” that are used to “lift” the hull(s) due to the forward movement through the water of the catamaran, (i.e. these foils are of an asymmetric profile, designed to generate upwards lift by the action of their movement through the water), are not allowed.

“T” foils (as opposed to “hydrofoils”)
Used only for the stablelization of pitch, and only of a symmetrical profile, without having any adjustment to the angle of “attack” of the foils whilst sailing (i.e. not independent of the movement of the hulls), and only if attached to, or forming part of the rudders, or attached to the underside of the hull(s) within 300mm 0f the transom(s), are allowed. No foil(s) shall protrude to any point wider than the maximum allowable beam of the class (i.e. or 2.5 metres).

Closed cell foam buoyancy is required to be permanently fixed internally in the hulls, sufficient to maintain the vessel, and its crew, in the upright position, at or above the surface of the water, when one or both hulls are completely full of water. (safety rule)

Re: Why I decided... [Re: Darryl_Barrett] #29756
11/22/04 12:18 PM
11/22/04 12:18 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 28
Perth, Western Australia
shoom Offline
newbie
shoom  Offline
newbie

Joined: May 2003
Posts: 28
Perth, Western Australia
Well it seems like you guys are onto something good! (and giving me ideas for when I upgrade from the paper tiger)

Berne : with the spinnaker and headsail what are you expecting to sell your revamped 430 for?

Darryl : do you have any pictures of the alpha omega? even of the old one that most resembles what the new one will look like?

I reckon F14 is a great idea, and anything that can haul the mail with a hobie 16 and has less waterline than them is okay with me (too many of them in WA)

I think though that having a formula within a formula will complicate things though (the suggestion of an 'A' class for the newer spin boats) why dont you put everything down to yardsticks and work it out from there, or simply run races for CAT JAM or SPI

lets show them how us aussies do 14 footers!

(oh and p.s. wouter ; what are these AHPC 'quick knots' you speak of? you didnt attach said picture and I cant find anything on the web!)

Here you are ... [Re: shoom] #29757
11/22/04 12:49 PM
11/22/04 12:49 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
...

[Linked Image]


Attached Files
Last edited by Wouter; 11/22/04 12:49 PM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
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