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Hobie Cat to reinstate H17 production #30499
02/25/04 09:35 PM
02/25/04 09:35 PM
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 206
Yardley PA
DanWard Offline OP
enthusiast
DanWard  Offline OP
enthusiast
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 206
Yardley PA
In response to the concerns of many H17 sailors about the future of the class Hobie Cat has reinstated H17 production. This decision was made to support our class and not for any bottom line considerations. This flies in the face of recent critisisms of Hobie Cat, their motovations and level of support. Thanks are due to Doug Skidmore and everyone at Hobie Cat.

H17 sailors also owe a debt of gratitude to HCA and specifically Rich McVeigh who took on our cause and advocated on our behalf. This decision is the result of an effective class organization working on behalf of its members and a company that supports its customers.

If good single-handed OD fleet racing on a tough, economical platform appeals to you, consider the H17. It looks like we will be around for a while longer.

-- Have You Seen This? --
HobieCat stock holder, or just guessing? [Re: DanWard] #30500
02/26/04 12:36 AM
02/26/04 12:36 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 851
US Western Continental Shelf
hobiegary Offline
old hand
hobiegary  Offline
old hand
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 851
US Western Continental Shelf
Quote
This decision was made to support our class and not for any bottom line considerations.


Your class? Sounds to me that Hobie is controlling the class. Are you an owner of part of the Hobie company? Can you really think that they would do this without regard to their 'bottom line?' I would disagree.


Quote
This flies in the face of recent critisisms of Hobie Cat, their motovations and level of support.
Quote


It seems to me that 'this'is a response to all the public outcry and does not "fly in the face of recent critisisms of Hobie Cat, their motovations and level of support."
Thanks are due to Doug Skidmore and everyone at Hobie Cat.


I won't disagree with that, but just exactly WHAT are we thanking them for? Let me know what I am supposed to be thanking them for; maybe I'll thank them!

For now, Thanks Mr. Alter and Mr. Edwards, .. you built some great boats!

GARY
"hobiegary"


Santa Monica Bay
Mystere 6.0 "Whisk" <--- R.I.P.
Re: ridiculous "logic" [Re: DanWard] #30501
02/26/04 12:46 AM
02/26/04 12:46 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 390
samevans Offline
enthusiast
samevans  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 390
Do you believe in the Easter Bunny too?

You mean "in response to potential customers waving money at HCA".

It is nothing but ECONOMICS.
A bunch of people complained that they were planning to buy a new H17 this year (yea, right)
and HCA saw an opportunity to clear out a pile of H17 specific parts at a PROFIT.

Hobie Cat CORPORATION is supposed to be a PROFIT making company.
They discontinued the H17 & TheMightyHobie18 because they weren't selling enough boats, (NOT ECONOMICAL).
They didn't make the first decision because they wanted to destroy the H17 & TheMightyHobie18 Classes
just as they didn't reverse their decision because they wanted to help the H17 Class, but not the TheMightyHobie18 Class.

A company has a right to make decisions which improve their profit margin, but don't dress it up as altruism or generosity.

There will be H17s around for a long time just as there are Sol Cats, Pacific Cats, Prindle 16s & 18s, and Tracs.
HCA can't force people to scrap their H17s and buy a new boat.

P.S.
HCA could take orders for a few boats and then drop production again in six months or a year.
Make no mistake, the H17 is competing with the FX/one and WILL eventually be discontinued.

Re: Hobie Cat to reinstate H17 production [Re: DanWard] #30502
02/26/04 01:39 AM
02/26/04 01:39 AM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 917
Issaquah, WA, USA
H17cat Offline
old hand
H17cat  Offline
old hand
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 917
Issaquah, WA, USA
I agree with Dan's comments. This great boat, my 6th Hobie is by far the best Cat I have ever sailed in my 32 years of racing Hobie Cats. Bringing back this boat was due to the efforts of all of us that sail and love this boat. That is why we have two in our family. The fact that I sail a 1986 model that is still in race condition is a credit to this design. BTW, this was the boat I raced in the Single Handled Nationals in 1990 in the Gorge with 40mph plus winds every day for the full week! Now many of the new "hot design" boats can handle these conditions, much less still be racing after 14 more years. The only problem Hobie Cat has with the H-17, is that it is so durable, they do not wear out.

Now Sam, you were on the line with me at the Mega at Ft Walton Beach, with the (43) H-17's on the line. Granted with the light winds, we did not see much of Dan Ward, the winner, but we did have a great time.

Caleb Tarleton, Seattle, Fleet 95, Div. 4, HCA, and member of the NAMSA Board.

Re: Hobie Cat to reinstate H17 production [Re: DanWard] #30503
02/26/04 07:02 AM
02/26/04 07:02 AM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 125
Cape Coral, FL
pete_pollard Offline
member
pete_pollard  Offline
member
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 125
Cape Coral, FL
Dan:

It's always the bottom line! If the people in charge don't count the pennies, there soon won't be any pennies to count. It's true for any company.

I finally sold my 17, reluctantly, because of lack of beach access. I loved the boat, it just didn't perform well in my back yard.

I'd support a Hobie regatta at my local beach even if I wasn't allowed to sail. In my area, beach access denial has totally destroyed the sport.

Last edited by pete_pollard; 02/26/04 07:11 AM.

"Cat Fest Sailor" Pete in Cape Coral
17 [Re: hobiegary] #30504
02/26/04 12:32 PM
02/26/04 12:32 PM
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 307
maui
jollyrodgers Offline
enthusiast
jollyrodgers  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 307
maui
Hello,
If memory serves me correctly, the Hobie 18 was the last boat designed by Hobie and Phill. Phill Edwards is quite a talented shaper.
They designed cats for surfing back then. Cats seemed to be designed for speed in moderate wind mostly these days.
When you race one design it doesn't matter if you are racing a wave boat though.
I heard the way that the 14 was shaped was by shaping a hull and testing it on their platform with a control hull on the other side. The new 14 guys could come up with a more racing oriented hull using the same technique. But who wants to spend their free time vacuumebagging in the garage?
Anyway, the 17 has more of a race rocker and was done by the hobiecat design team after Hobie Sr. had retired from the co.

Re: Hobie Cat to reinstate H17 production [Re: pete_pollard] #30505
02/26/04 06:02 PM
02/26/04 06:02 PM
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 206
Yardley PA
DanWard Offline OP
enthusiast
DanWard  Offline OP
enthusiast
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 206
Yardley PA
Gary... Of course Hobie Cat has to consider the bottom line. But businesses across the country consider other factors every day. I do in the operation of my business. You can thank Hobie Cat for considering the other factors. If you can, get your hands on an H17 and meet us in Monterey this summer. Should be a good time and it would be nice to meet you.

Caleb...Hope to see you in Monterey too. By the way, the boat I sailed at the Mega was an 86 also. Your right, they just keep going.

Pete...See Gary above for response to bottom line issue. I'm sorry to hear you had to sell your H17 but your new boat looks pretty cool. Good luck with it.

It is for the Hobie Class... [Re: DanWard] #30506
02/26/04 08:26 PM
02/26/04 08:26 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,252
California
mmiller Offline
veteran
mmiller  Offline
veteran
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,252
California
There are quite a few opinions in this forum, but so many have very little basis in reality. Many more are simply inspired by some misplaced anger or lack of trust in the Hobie Cat Company… I find that somewhat bizarre and tiresome. I guess it is mostly the “idle minds...” concept, but for many it seems to be some kind of sport and that bothers me. There are a lot of hard working people in this company that truly care about what is going on. Of these, many are active within the Hobie class and other sailing associations and often at their own expense and time. Sorry, but I find it offensive when our efforts are disregarded or disparaged by some posters, so I have to pipe up here.

Fact: Hobie Cat re-introduced the Hobie 17 in support of the Hobie Class Association. Not for some profit driven motive. I am here, I know the issues involved and neither decision was an easy one.

Hobie Cat knew that the 17 Class would continue regardless of whether the boat was being currently produced. There are thousands of 17’s in the marketplace and only a small fraction of them are racing. There would be plenty of used 17s for years and years to come. Hobie Cat would also continue to provide replacement parts for years to come. The timing was simply unfortunate in relation to the Class decision about x-boats. Likely, disconnected from this decision, it would have been a non-issue in these forums.

You would have to understand all of the business factors that are involved to have an informed opinion about Hobie Cat’s motives. Most look at the sales numbers, but just one of the major considerations is materials purchasing and minimum run costs. Hobie Cat has to buy large runs of aluminum and custom stainless parts to make production economical. At the current projected level of sales, Hobie Cat did not think it could justify buying the materials needed to continue production. Only due to the strong input from the Hobie 17 Class sailors, was that decision reversed. Whether this becomes a cost effective decision for Hobie Cat is yet to be seen.


Hobie Cat Forums
Matt Miller
Hobie Cat Company
Re: It is for the Hobie Class... [Re: mmiller] #30507
02/26/04 08:35 PM
02/26/04 08:35 PM
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 59
Sandy Hook, NJ Fleet 250
jonr Offline
journeyman
jonr  Offline
journeyman
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 59
Sandy Hook, NJ Fleet 250
If you love your H17 come join us for the Division 11 Hobie 17 Championship.
Hosted by Sandy Hook Bay Catamaran Club (www.fleet250.org) on June 12th & 13th
Party Saturday night, Award Party/Ceremony on the Beach directly after Sunday race, Give-Aways to all racers


How many produced in 2003? [Re: DanWard] #30508
02/26/04 09:06 PM
02/26/04 09:06 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 887
Dunedin Causeway, FL
David Parker Offline
old hand
David Parker  Offline
old hand
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 887
Dunedin Causeway, FL
To HCA...if it's not a trade secret, could one of your reps on this forum let us know how many H17s were sold last year? Just how big is/was this market? Just a reasonable guess would do...5? 10? 100? 1000?

Re: How many produced in 2003? [Re: David Parker] #30509
02/26/04 09:25 PM
02/26/04 09:25 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,252
California
mmiller Offline
veteran
mmiller  Offline
veteran
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,252
California
I don't think it is a big trade secret. This boat has been in production since 1985 (nearly 20 years). We have built thousands of them. Many racers have been sailing the same 17 for many, many years. Seems that the older boats are just as competitive as the newer boats, so there was little new boat turn over in the class. For a manufacturer, this is one drawback to a durable, unchanged design. Of the last ten years of sales, most 17s were of the Sport version. We have now replaced virtually all of those sales via the Getaway. Sales of the 17 race version were projected at less than 10 I think. We wanted to be able to keep supplying replacement parts for many years, but we were running out of raw materials and would have to re-order masts, crossbars and other components that have to be ordered in large batches. We would have to cut production off before we ran through the stock intended for replacement parts.


Hobie Cat Forums
Matt Miller
Hobie Cat Company
Different tack, same boat [Re: mmiller] #30510
02/27/04 08:57 AM
02/27/04 08:57 AM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 125
Cape Coral, FL
pete_pollard Offline
member
pete_pollard  Offline
member
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 125
Cape Coral, FL
Matt:

If memory serves, the first 17s came with a sail cut from horizontal dacron panels (that can't be the proper terminology) and later was a radial cut mylar sail.

Just how much did the perforamance change? Or, am I totally confused, which has happened before?


"Cat Fest Sailor" Pete in Cape Coral
Re: How many produced in 2003? [Re: mmiller] #30511
02/27/04 11:02 AM
02/27/04 11:02 AM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1
LuisOliveira Offline
stranger
LuisOliveira  Offline
stranger
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1
Matt:
Thank you for the information. Since most sales on the previous couple of years have been the sports version, have you guys given any thought to adding a spinnaker to the regular 17? As a racer, I don't really feel like spending the money for the sport kit, but a spinnaker would be interesting...

Thanks,


Luis Oliveira HC17 - Houston, TX
Horizontal cut? Sport Models and Spinnaker on a 17? [Re: LuisOliveira] #30512
02/27/04 12:01 PM
02/27/04 12:01 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,252
California
mmiller Offline
veteran
mmiller  Offline
veteran
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,252
California
For those that might not know... the 17 Sport is completely convertible to the race version. The only difference is the jib / forestay assembly and the boomless feature for the main sail. The Sport main sail has been the race cut since 1995. Earlier Sport models were made with a shorter foot and a harken track / boomlet. With more recent versions... Change the forestay, add a boom and rotator... you have a race 17.

The FX1 spinnaker package or even the Hobie 16 system should work great on the 17.

Horizontal cut main sails? In the first production run (1985) there were horizontal cut, solid color Mylar mains. The change to the current vertical cut was very early in that first year.


Hobie Cat Forums
Matt Miller
Hobie Cat Company
Re: Different tack, same boat [Re: pete_pollard] #30513
02/27/04 06:42 PM
02/27/04 06:42 PM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,884
Detroit, MI
mbounds Offline
Pooh-Bah
mbounds  Offline
Pooh-Bah
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,884
Detroit, MI
I've got a horizontal cut, mylar sail that was used in the 1990 Toronto Worlds. Slow (with a capital "S"). The batten lengths are different, too.

(I didn't buy it, I "won" it in a raffle)


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