After incorporation and then affiliation with the YA the association then becomes the offifial recognised representative of the "class" at state level, national level and internationally. the class is listed in the yachting authorities records and can have their "program" of events for the next year published in the official program for that year. correspondence to the YA from the association at the end of this year/start of next year as to "state" champions, "national champion", forwarded by the association will be published by the YA and the information will appear in all state yachting "programs" for the next twelve months. And with that "recognition nationally and internationally of those titles ie "state champion" in the F16 "class, or "National champion" or what ever is appropriate. the association can also apply for any assistance to the YA for the running of majour events, and even for financial assistance for training, travel for "class represenatation to international events etc (if there is funding there at YA), in fact ALL the benefits that are available to any "legitimate" class association affiliated with the YA.
The association becomes "official" and the true and only representative of that "class" ie F16, and no one else can then lay claim to the representation of that class (and steal it for their own personal gain). The "class then becomes association "owned" (as opposed to a manufacturers owned and controlled "class") which means that the association has full control over the definition of what the class really is and any manufacturer has to conform to those definitions and not make their own changes and arbitarilly declare that any changes that they (the manufacturer) make are then the legal dimensions of the class (as all manufactureres do from time to tome, not for the benefit of the class, but purely for financial reasons)

The main benefit of being affiliated with Yachting Australia is class recognition at the national level. It also provides an opportunity for a class to have input into the decision making process by YA, although I doubt if the opinion of a single class association carries much weight.

YA has quite a nice website at http://www.yachting.org.au.

As an affiliated class, F16 events (e.g. National titles) would be incorporated in the forthcoming Events Section at the YA website. F16 news items could also be sent to YA as a means of publizing the class.

Phil Edwards

Can you check up the "requirements of a national class".

Rules have probably changed. But once it was stipulated on the number of "states" competing to classify as a "national"..

This may be important as it was how the state associations used to grant class association money for holding a title & sending boats to titles. Even if its only a $500-1500..
Perhaps YA/AYF may still grant monies to associations to hold events.. Also being "National" helps in obtaining grant monies from "health" departments.. The Javs used to get a few thousand each year from "Sun Smart".. Worth thinking about..

Also look at the "ownership" that "national" status brings.. It once stated all TV and marketing rights of "National & International" were the property of YA/AYF and Sailing org. Again not a huge problem unless your hoping to get the class on TV at 3:30 am between home shopping and the breakfast shows.. But thing that slot is rerserved for the 18teens..

Thanks, Phil E.

Noted. I will take a look at that.

Wouter

>>Rules have probably changed. But once it was stipulated on the number of "states" competing to classify as a "national"..

If this is true that they must allow a growth membership or something. No class just suddenly materializes to the required size.

>>This may be important as it was how the state associations used to grant class association money for holding a title & sending boats to titles. Even if its only a $500-1500..

I would like to see programs like these in writing

>>Perhaps YA/AYF may still grant monies to associations to hold events.. Also being "National" helps in obtaining grant monies from "health" departments.. The Javs used to get a few thousand each year from "Sun Smart".. Worth thinking about..

If this is the case than by all means. But I would like to see a cost - (likelyhood of) expected benefit analyses of this.


>>>Also look at the "ownership" that "national" status brings.. It once stated all TV and marketing rights of "National & International" were the property of YA/AYF and Sailing org. Again not a huge problem unless your hoping to get the class on TV at 3:30 am between home shopping and the breakfast shows.. But thing that slot is rerserved for the 18teens..

AYF can never lay claim to this UNLESS you sign away rights to these by becoming a member of AYF. It is the same with ISAF. They are effectively private organisations subject to the same laws applicable to persons such as you and me. I can not lay claim to words like "sailboat" nor can they lay claim to "national or international" . This is a common misconception. This is also the reason why they go after the possible participants of rebel classes and not after the rebelious class organisation. It is the same tacktic as used by shady characters in both criminal and secret service organisations.

This is why I want a throurough and in depth discussion on this topic. I see no reason to sign away our unalienable rights for no returning benefits (3 am TV coverage if we ever grow big enough to warrant that) and pay for that "taking away of rights" as well.

Wouter

>>>After incorporation and then affiliation with the YA the association then becomes the offifial recognised representative of the "class" at state level, national level and internationally.

But I don't want the AYF to represent us Internationally. They are the AUSTRALIAN yachting Federation and should restrict their meddling to that area. What if the other organisations like the Dutch, English, South African, American, etc all have the same idea ? I want them to be only Aus, NL, UK, SA, US, etc umbrella organisations and stick to their turf.

I'm happy with allowing the AYF to represent us (as a single contact point) for the Government of AUS and the Aus federal states. All the way up to the time they act against our interest. How strong is Hobies influence in the AYF ? Is it trully balanced and independent of the bigger member classes ?

I'm not happy having the AYF represent us in Aus in every respect. We can do that ourself well enough. Towards states and fed Government okay as it is better to present these organisations with a single point of contact but beyond that no thank you.


>>>the class is listed in the yachting authorities records and can have their "program" of events for the next year published in the official program for that year. correspondence to the YA from the association at the end of this year/start of next year as to "state" champions, "national champion", forwarded by the association will be published by the YA and the information will appear in all state yachting "programs" for the next twelve months.

With the current internet infrastructure I'm not impressed by this so much. We can easily get by without AYF playing this role. Okay it is a positive secondairy benefit, but it is not a strong enough argument to incorporate yourself as a class association.


>>And with that "recognition nationally and internationally of those titles ie "state champion" in the F16 "class, or "National champion" or what ever is appropriate.


Sorry, how interesting wether a certain group recognized a certain status of sailors or not. Steve Fosset got the world circumnavigation record but not the Jules Verne throphy because they had a conflict over the prize JV-organisation asked to have them officially recognize the record breaking circumnavigation. Does anyone think the greater public cares ? It was the fastest time around, Period.

And if they want to punish us than we just use different names for our events and keep the spend the money on more effective programs/activities. (Australian F16 challenge, NSW F16 challenge, Vic F16 challenge, Dutch Coast challenge , etc)

We simply do not need official recognition of any national organisation for this. Again a nice fringe benefit but no where near powerfull enough to warrent becoming an official member and part with class money.



>>the association can also apply for any assistance to the YA for the running of majour events,

Give me examples, please. Will they organise an event for us. Supply us with a capable RC for nothing ? Contact clubs for us to open up their club waters for our events ? Or will they just give us a leaflet with pointers on how to conduct an event, with a big section about the punished if we try to be creative ? I'm not in the slightest interested in the last thing.


>>and even for financial assistance for training,

Only for Olympic classes and one or two of our biggest competitors, I guess. Why should WE pay for that ?

Or will they give free RC training to our class officials ?


>>>travel for "class represenatation to international events etc (if there is funding there at YA),

Again only for Olympic classes and one or two of our biggest competitors. Why should WE pay for that ?


>>in fact ALL the benefits that are available to any "legitimate" class association affiliated with the YA.

So what are the benefits ? I can see only at this time : presenting a unified representation to state and federal governmental agencies. The "benefits" aren't worthg much at all.


>>The association becomes "official" and the true and only representative of that "class" ie F16, and no one else can then lay claim to the representation of that class (and steal it for their own personal gain).

I would like to see somebody try. Maybe they can claim the name but they can never steal our current organisation or influence the structure. My experience is that that individual sailors are well aware of which group is which and which. And then we just call ourselfs "The Real F16 class" and leave the other with an empty organisation. Besides our contacts with the builders are far to good to fear them jumping ship. The Same with contact dealing with the Texel and ISAF, Portsmouth handicap ratings.

Now I'm all for laying a more firm claim to the name F16 and Formula 16 but not at the expense of our independence, flexibility and capability of being creative, or very limited financial resources.


>>>The "class then becomes association "owned" (as opposed to a manufacturers owned and controlled "class") which means that the association has full control over the definition of what the class really is and any manufacturer has to conform to those definitions and not make their own changes and arbitarilly declare that any changes that they (the manufacturer) make are then the legal dimensions of the class (as all manufactureres do from time to tome, not for the benefit of the class, but purely for financial reasons)

I challenge they builder to try and alter their F16 beyond the rules. They will quickly find how far the influence of the current class setup goes. A certain Italian builder tried a stunt like that a year ago. We're still here and growing like I don't know what.

I think we must guard against overreacting.

Now that I have finished playing the sceptical advocate of teh devil let me lay down what I think is the right approach :


-1- We must guard against talking ourselfs into an organisation or framework that puts us in their pocket. Once your in somebodies pocket you never get out again.

-2- If we pay for (an organisational) membership I expect the receiving organisation to work for us and act in a customer-client relationship. We're paying them and not the other way around. Any organisation that doesn't underline this setup is better kept far away.

-3- By virtue of point 2 I expect significant influence and well established protection against peddling interests and actions that are detrimental to our class. I expect an umbrella organisation to work on aspects that are equal beneficial to all member classes.

-4- I expect the umbrella organisation to restrict themselfs to thier own turf. AYF going "International representation" on us is not it.

-5- I'm all for full cooperation on safety and event coordination and even presentation to governmental bodies. But beyond that I'm sceptical.

-6- I'm not for an umbrella organisation demanding class infrastructural changes. I see no need to have a secretary at this time as well have no class fees nor an official budget.

-7- I don't like a vendictive umbrella organisation. The kind that threatens to punish event participants when the class organisation doesn't become an official member of their umbrella organisation. This is coercement and their is a reason why they have to punish the participant; their is no legal framework to punish the class organisation to become a paid member of their umbrella organisation. The basic F16 class setup of openess and inclusiveness and the spirit of the rules that stimulate this are INCOMPATIBLE with an umbrella organisation like this.

-8- If a law requires us to become official members than we will but I strongly doubt it.


Why do I have such a harsh stance on this. Partly because of the particular situation that has existed in the Netherlands. Early on in the rise of beach cat our national organisation was a monohull organisation and regarded cats are unsafe boats and worked against the interest of catsailors in every way. A rebelious attitude grew and founded a rival organisation together with three other neglected coastal watersport groups. Now this organisation has eclips the official national organisation fully on these area's and the NFB is fully independent and has it's own links to important governmental deparments. NFB does ONLY represent the common interests and has retained its openness and inclusive stance over the years. She allows the F16 to become silent members for no fee and accepts our voluntary close coordination on the area's of safety and events. So would like us to become paying members but is fully happy to see us cooperate on the important aspects and let us grow and develop on our own initiative. I think that in time the NL F16 class will become a fully paying member of this NFB organisation; knowing that she will not meddle in internal F16 affairs as long as we adhere to the basic rules and commonly accepted practices concerning safety etc. Right now we are recognized as an existing class with specified contact info and mutual updates.

Can the Aussies explain to us to what extend the AYF is reflective of these points and the precendent set by the NFB ?

Regards,

Wouter


P.S. May comments will come across a bit harsh but I trully want to have a good and in depth discussion on this topic before we sign away anthing as a class to a national organisation that eventual may proof to be detrimental to the F16 class.

There was a classification of classes.. Depended on state represented in the fleet and numbers at titles. (dont quote me on the whole list of requirements)..
The 18 footers get around this but not holding an Australian or world title but sail for a cup.. But then they dont need help in funding!! The club has a few million dollars a year in profits, from pokies and its restaurant, to fund the 18 association and boats.. (something like $5000 gets a good crew a new water ready 18 and all sailing costs are covered by the club)

In regard to the grant monies.. State YAs are independant and thus each should be asked.. NSW may not give grants because many NSW clubs are awash with millions of gambling dollars or from their club rooms.. However YAWA used to supply grants to classes travelling to "away titles".. Maybe details are on the YAWA website?

State governmental monies was given to promote health (in our case)and thus the promotion agency sets its own rules.. I suspect each state body has differing requirements.. But the more "official" the class the easier it may be to tap into this..

Im not defending what YA or ISAF does or does not do.. But if competing in an recognised international regatta or national regatta requires YA membership then that is the rules of the regatta.. (again this does need to be checked).. IF one has lost his/her membership thats too bad as far as the regatta commitee goes..

Can they get away with it? Guess its in the fine print of the International classes titles entry form.. Which one has to sign to enter!!..

Realistically the class has to start funding the costs the representatives are paying... Phone, mail ect..

A point to seek advice on may be if there is [color:"red"] currently [/color] any benefit to incorporate the Association?

"It is the same tacktic as used by shady characters in both criminal and secret service organisations." Actually exclusive contracts are part of many businesses..

YA/AYF provides funding to get boats to any "International title" not just "Olympic class events".
The International 14s get assistance to fund a container to ship boats to the "Worlds".. Not sure if they have asked for training grants?

If I wanted to hold the F16 whatever in WA..
The hoops I would have to jump through include
(Depending on the venue).. Getting clean water which means applying for water rights..
River this means seeking YAWA and Swan River Trust ticks. To get either requires membership of YAWA.
A tick means we are officially recognised as having exclusive rights to that water.. (apart from ferries).. No other racing fleet can cross the water.. Not having a tick would means no river club would start us. Any race started by us isnt a recognised race and we would have to give way to all boats racing as per ISAF sailing rules.. Legal compensation could be a nightmare.

Offshore metro clubs would require YAWA tick and the offshore committee tick.. both again require YAWA membership.. Not having an offshore tick would mean we would be under water police rules.. This means carrying all the equipement for offshore boating.. Flares, radio, ect and the class race committee may be liable for any injury to any competitor..

Could someone check if this is the same on Sydney Harbour or your local pond/wherever?

The non metro clubs are easier as there is generally only one in each bit of pond.. Again legal liability may be an issue?

As for class fees.. I dont think its fair to ask Phill to cover costs for the Au class.. We, the sailors, should be asked to help him cover the costs he is incuring to promote and organise the class.. Some mechanism need to be formalised to provide him and any others with resources required without it going on his taxable income!

Wouter the YA (when we are affiliated) dont "represent" the class, they ACKNOWLEDGE us as a class, nationally and internationally, the only organisation that "represents" the class is the association, or should I say Associations, for there has to be representative associations affiliated with each other on an international basis for the class to become truly "international" These associations would all share a lot in common. 1. They would/should have a common name but with their relative state or national name included. 2. they would/should have the same constitution, regulations and class rules, 3. they should all be incorporated. 4. They should all be affiliated with each other and they should aggree on how/who is the "overall" organising body. That could be, by representation from each individual association, or there could be a national representative body for each country and the international direction/responsibility could be rotated from country to country every 2 years, 4 years or what ever. Or there could be one association that is the body responsible for the international organisation and all the other bodies are affiliated with it. It would/should work in exactly the same way as the yachting authorities work i.e. the associations are affiliated to the state yachting authorities, the state authorities are affiliated with the national authority and the national authority are affiliated with the international authority, and all are made up of elected representatives from each and all of those authorities. In many ways it is more democratic than most governments. But obviously if one association (there always has to be a first) is formed (no matter where) that association will obviously represent ALL the boats of the class untill such time as another association(s) is/are formed in other states/country's and the organisation for the class can be consolidated. Wouter the YA, etc, will never "own" or control an association, if you don't like the deal they give you, don't pay the affiliation fees and bang!! the next season your no longer affiliated!! They never try to control an association. By being affiliated they don't "own' you! your JUST affiliated!!! the same as if two companies come together to organise an event. they work together, they share their people to organise the event THEY AFFILIATE for a purpose. BUT that does not give either one dominance over the other in their normal business life or dealings, they have simply come together for a specific purpose. That is why class associations affiliate with yachting authorities - for mutual benefit - As an association, the benefits of being affiliated with the YA, and ISAF are great and many and far far out way any negatives. They will not have any control over our finances or the way in which we raise them. they will not interfere in the way that we promote the class or with any form of advertising/sponsorship monies that we negotiate and obtain. If they did, we as an association have the ultimate responce to any form of threat from an yachting authority - we would disaffiliate our selves from them and they would lose our support and fees. And every association affiliated with the yachting authorities have the same power. Don't you think the ISAF are aware of this? It's like having the sword of Damacles hanging over your head, they are dependent on the "goodwill" of the associations not visa versa. The ISAF and all the affiliated yachting authorities, are not entities in their own rights, their entire foundations are made up of sailors, class associations, and yacht clubs. If you take away the sailors there is no ISAF, "They" are more dependent on "us" then we are of them.
The state and federal governments, in any country, have absolutey no control over an association (apart from the laws that apply equally to any citzen of that country) The only direct effect that any government would have would be by any "funding" from the government to "Yachting" but that's it, nothing else. It has been my experience that the last thing on earth that "governments and yachting authorities" want to do is "punish" sailors and/or associations, quite the contrary, it is so much in the interests of all yachting authorities to have happy and successful associations and sailors, after all, when it is all boiled down, the only way that yachting authorities exist, is by the good will of sailors, so it is only logical that ISAF YA etc have to encourage "sailors" not hinder them.

Ohh and another point, by being affiliated with YA as an association and as a registered sailor through being a financial member of a yacht club you have personal and third party insurance cover when competing and the association, I believe, have third party and public liability cover when conducting events.

When and if the F16 becomes a recognised or International class in the eyes of the ISAF.. I have a vague feeling the ISAF needs to Ok any change of rules/constitution and or measurements the Association has passed.. Not sure how much power they have in forcing changes on associations..


This isnt the case as I understand it with YA/AYF..

NONE Stewart, the class rules which define just what the class (craft) is and basically how it will be sailed etc, etc, is not a part of the constitution and as such the Yachting authorities do not even have to see it, What YA has is a copy of the constitution and thats all. Any rule changes, boat changes, construction changes or what colour under wear that is required to be worn is entirely at the discression of the association. The only classes that the ISAF have any sort of influence over are olympic class's, and only then can they make suggestions, the final decisions are always made by the association members by a democratic vote. It has always been that way and I think that it always will.
What is it about "THE YACHTING AUTHORITIES" that seems to have gotten some of you "spooked" and even a little paranoid. All yachting bodies were STARTED BY SAILORS, ARE IN THE MAIN RUN BY SAILORS, FOR THE BENEFIT OF SALORS, and that is the same today as it was 50 years ago and will be when our great grand children will probably still be having this same dialogue. The yachting authorities are there for OUR benefit, not to seek control over us, they are not some malignant, slimy, monster that just wants to swallow us up to satisfy its own appertite and greed. They are not the "Boogy man", they are predominantly sailors working for the benefit of sailors.

Im not spooked..
As far as I know I14s arent an Olympic class.. When the I 14s made foiled I14s illegal.. The ballot had to be confirmed with ISAF before the rule could be used.. But then that was a few years ago..

read rule in the post http://www.catsailor.com/forums/sho...ew=expanded&sb=5&o=14&fpart=

This post shows a section of the ISAF rules. Affiliation with ISAF requires you accept a pile of racing rules and equipments rules as well the rules given in the post.

In effect these rules forces you to conduct your class business a time-table set by ISAF and to ask approval in various cases. Not to mention that in several cases the ISAF may give intepretation of the class rules rather than the class organisation itself. That and the payed of 1100 Euro's affiliation fee together with 50 Euro's fee per sold class boat.

Wouter

Forget the affiliation with the ISAF then (they would appear from what you have shown us Wouter to be a bunch of money hungry, power hungry, megolamaniacs, so STUFF them you don't really need them anyway) But I think that the incorporation is vital (if for no other reason than to protect the name and to offer protection for the association officers) and it can do nothing but good to affiliate with the state yachting authorities for when it comes to conducting state and or national titles.
Darryl

I spoke to Phill about incorporation and it seems to have only benefits on no (major) drawbacks. In this respect it is not comparable to ISAF affiliation. Same applies to AYF affiliation. So I will chease my opposition to it. Phill, as the Australian head, will have the final say and I will support whatever decision he makes on this.

Wouter.

Wouter

I think you mentioned that you sent me an e-mail via Dave (Slimy) Elliott. I haven't received it as yet. No doubt Slimy has been busy coming to terms with his new T5.7 and its ejector seat.

If it is still relevant you can e-mail direct at phil_ef1@energyfocus.com.au


Regards


Phil Edwards