Has anyone asked for a Portsmouth # for the F14? It would probably be a good idea to start with the Mystere 4.3 numbers.

I am going to try to race my boat at GBCC with the full height mast and a test sail.

Carl,

With all the different configurations, it is not fair to stick everyone with the same number. US Sailing already provides modification factors for the boats and that is what I use when sailing in P/N races. I mulled over this for quite some time with no solution. Even if we came up with some number for the max allowable sailarea, I don't think anyone would really be using that much sailplan anyway and that to me is not fair.
Our rules are loose enough to cause this problem and that is why the P/N mod factors are a good choice to use. The F18 class is alot more stringent and can come up with a number.

Bob

Bob, I thought the idea was to get a F-14 number so that we're all racing straight up... You did a horizon job on the 4.3s in GA... why would you want us to give you time, too?

What would you suggest that would be all encompassing?

Bob

It seems to me that in an F14 class, as long as you fit into the box rules, there is no handicap. The only exception would be the newer style dagger board boats vs. the older style like hobie 14.

I don't see how you could sail in a regatta as an F14 without others and be scored fairly. You would be better off (in the H14 case) by taking the hit for the oversized main and the addition of the headsail.

The F18s are all close enough (IMO) to have a Portsmouth rating, but I bet if the PR for their individual boat is better, they would race under that for an open regatta!

I thought the whole idea of F14 was to develop a formula which promotes innovation by allowing some development in 14ft cats. If you are advocating 'sub' classes within the formula with varying yardsticks/Portsmouth numbers it really defeats the purpose of the class as I see it. I mean there would be no incentive to continue to develop your boat, a. because you would already be competitive on yardstick and b. if you continued development the boat would simply attract an equalising Portsmouth number and nothing would be gained. This is assuming that some miracle formula could be developed to make all the various configurations equal in the first place which is almost impossible.
No IMHO F14 must simply be scratch racing and if you want to race under a Portsmouth number, best leave the boat 'existing one design' class legal.
Bern

Having a Portsmouth # for F14 does not preclude anyone from racing as a one design with mods. You simply register as whatever you are and give the mods.

Not having a # Portsmouth leaves specialty boats out in the cold. Such as custom boats and boat that are so modified that hey scare the race committee.

No matter what, I am going to have to apply for a Portsmouth # and I am going to look a whole lot like an F14 with and without a spinnaker.

It would be better if we decide on a preliminary number together. We can call this thing whatever we want, so as not to confuse it with the modified production boats. Call it EXP 14.

With no port mouth # there is no incentive to build a boat. Though if 2 boats are built this year I will be surprised

I'm sorry, now I see, you want to race your F14 in a mixed fleet for overall placings on yardstick within the whole fleet against all comers. In Australia we run 14ft only regattas and within those you either race for line honours (F14), or to existing one design yardstick places. Generally Formula class boats F16, F18, race as a class and not for overall line honours against all comers.
I'd say, given that my 430 without a kite runs with tail end H16's, that the H16 number would be somewhere about right when fitted with a kite. Just my opinion.
Bern

I guess we're talking about two different things - Carl is looking for a base number for he and other home-builds to use when his boat is complete. I'd say the 4.3 numbers are a good jumping-off point. It also seems like you're saying, Bob, that you don't want the modified Hobie 14 to get lowered to the 4.3 number in open Portsmouth racing. I'd be OK with that when there aren't other Formula 14s on the race course. I'd contend that you could run with the 4.3 numbers just fine - I base that on your performance at Spring Fever.

In addition, on the Portsmouth side, I don't think the spinnaker modifier you're taking accounts for the modified Hobie 14 being able to carry the extra sail area upwind as well as down. The spin mod was calculated on downwind only, so you're only getting a half-hit. Work that in and you get closer to the 4.3 number, but they still owe you time.

Am I looking for a number that will make Bob come in second? Of course not - he's got years of experience and more than a thimble-full of talent to back it up. He can take all comers. If we're to get the 14 thing off the ground, though, we need to agree to ask US SAILING for a number and then let the data accumulate, just like anyone else's class. And we'll need to use it or it won't have credibility. Otherwise, we might as well be saying, oh, I dunno, something like "you know, the Formula 18 idea is fine, but there's one that is notably faster than the rest and it should get a seperate Portsmouth number..."

Yeah - I'm with John. F14 needs to have a single Portsmouth rating for all comers. If you're the only Monster H14 / F14 at a regatta it's your choice to use the Portsmouth mods or the F14 number. This does not mean that all Mystere 4.3's all of a sudden have to race the F14 number but it does give Carl something to race with.

I would like to see a M4.3 use a reacher instead of the spin and accumulate data with that rig versus the 14 with reacher. I guess my rig was optimized for the light air we had at Hartwell. Higher winds would have kept the reacher furled until the downwind legs. So I'm skeptical on this sudden rush for a number with only a 0-3kt regatta under our belt. I'd like to see Carl sail his boat against a Hobie 16 or something similar for a comparison before we ask for a number. In other words, I'm all for a F14 number but let's take our time and collect some data before we run off to US Sailing for a preliminary number. Who's going to be the first M4.3 to put up a reacher?

Bob

Allow me to simply clarify my original thinking of the F14 concept:

Originally, no P/N was contemplated. It was conceptual to race together as a fleet, not in mixed racing. US Sailing already has modifiers in place for that form of competition. Now, everyone wants to race P/N. And again, I oppose a number right away until data is collected. It only complicates the original intent. Keep it simple and it will fly: complicate it and it will fall. It was simple up to the Spring Fever race. Now, it seems (IMHO, to me) like we are getting stuck.

Bob

We need another race to compete in. When's the next big thing in the South-East?

FWIW, I agree with Bob. Portsmouth numbers and mods already exist for handicapping existing boats with any mods they use. Why come up with a number for a boat that MAY be built? It is hard to believe that someone would want to build a boat to the F-14 rule, then decide not to only because there was not a Portsmouth number assigned for all F-14s already! If you DO insist on an F-14 handicap, then as a race organizer interested in fair handicaps for all, I want it to fairly rate the fastest possible boat that will come from the box rule but as a Mystere 4.3 owner, I do not want to use that number as it would not be fair for my boat (which I believe is the fastest production boat available as an F-14). So forget about an F-14 rating. The current Portsmouth rule is fine as is for individual boats and when there are enough F-14 compliant boats together at a given event, we can race one-design as F-14s.

Please keep in mind two very important points:
1) As Bob already wrote, Spring Fever conditions were very light and not a valid comparison of relative boat speeds. Remember also that more than one boat was rigged like Bob's and were sailed nowhere near as fast as Bob's.
2) In the U.S. at least, the main idea of this effort was to get existing classes together with some relatively easy and inexpensive mods to make one-design racing. If someone wants to start from scratch they should be able to build a significantly faster boat with the allowable parameters than what already exists in the existing production classes, even with mods. (considering the A class as a guide, it should be possible to produce a lighter boat - under 150# - all up, with twice the sail area!) We will have to address that disparity if and when enough boats exist to make it an issue, but we do NOT need an F-14 class Portsmouth number!

Exactly.
As I said previously, an F14 built to the existing class rules will be well amongst the H16's or possibly even better than that sailed well off the breeze so the H16 Portsmouth would probably be a reasonable starting point, however not too many existing F14's can race successfully to that number if any, except probably my 430.
If the H16 Portsmouth number was adopted, it'd spoil any chance for most F14's to place well at an open regatta.
Bern

We'll sail the F-14s straight up any time there are more than one on the course, and we'll continue to use the DPNs with any modifiers necessary in open fleets. This may be tough for organizing authorities to handle, but it sounds like it may not come up too much - we'll see this weekend, as Bob and I are both doing a two-day event in Navarre on 14s (unless he brings his 17??)

Now, back to the original topic for this thread - Carl wants to know what number to use for his home-build project. Not up to me to get or assign one, but I think you'd be safe asking the Portsmouth Committee to give you a note indicating the 4.3 number as a start, though it sounds like you have the potential to be a bit faster. Keep in mind that the host of any event that you enter generally reserves the right to assign you a number if they have any beef with what you've got. I've never seen that right abused - generally it's the addition of the "miscellaneous" modifier, which doesn't change much at all, but pacifies some 20-footer with heartburn.

Everyone happy with this? Let's pick the next event! How about the Horn Island race in Mississippi July 3 and 4? How about something further north? Let's keep it going somehow...

For a major race, I would like to suggest the NAMSA North Americans/Tradewinds Regatta in the Florida Keys in January over Martin Luther King Weekend. We usually have anywhere from 50 to 110 boats. and usually lots of wind.

We could make this our F14 Midwinter Championships.., or something to that effect.
Rick

I want to check to see if understood the gist of this thread.

At the Oriental Sailing Social this weekend, I was talking to a few Isotope sailors over the post race beers. They indicated they were sending race data on the Isotope in an effort to get a modification to thier Portsmouth Number. They suggested submitting the F14 data as well from our club racing. I said that my understanding was that the F14 class would compete straight up against each other and that we would use our original one design class number plus the appropriate mods when racing open fleet for those who are racing refitted boats and a derived (method unknown) number for those who custom build.

Did I get this right?

Pat

PS: A couple of the folks indicated they may be considering a Cheshire Cat based F14.....

Hi Pat -

Since nobody piped up to answer you, I'll jump in. You're spot on as far as I understand things. We're agreeing to race all the F-14s straight up, and use our various class numbers with mods in open fleets. That means going to the oganizers for any races you plan to attend and asking for an F-14 start with seperate scoring, or at least asking that all the F-14s start in the same open fleet start and sail the same course so you can figure out the results yourself. So far, regatta hosts have been very accomodating, particularly if I volunteer to help with the scoring.

As far as the home-builds, I'm not sure what to say - I guess once somebody gets one finished, we'll ask Darline for a provisional number like the CFR 20 and P19MX did...

So, has anyone followed up on a P-number for a homebuild? I have a little project going here...Someone home built this out of what appears to be donor parts from a Solcat 18. It was first titled in Michigan in 1996.

14'3" Long, 7'11" Beam, 24" Mast Extrusion (since I cut it) Weighs in at 230 lbs at the moment...will go on a diet soon enough.

Hulls are cedar strips over tortured plywood.

Took it out this past weekend and she sailed pretty well as a uni-rig with about a 120 square foot main. Jib should be on by the weekend of the 4th of July for my next test.

Rich, that's just plain too pretty. What races do you plan on taking it to? We can send a note to the Portsmouth Committee asking for a number for your boat, and then talk to your regatta organizer to see what they will need.

You might get stuck with the Mystere number early on, as it is the most-raced boat of this size. Are you planning to add a spin or hooter? How big is the jib?

Again - really pretty boat. Nice job bringing it back to life.

Hey John,

Thanks, but I must say that is what she looked like when I picked her up. Since then I"ve done a small amount of repair...mainly from the neglect of sitting for a while. Sanded her good and put 3 coats of varnish on so she's shin'n now. Added a spinnaker pole to position the jib better(26 sq ft), and for the eventual addition of more sail.

I'm really not concerned with the actual number at this point, just a good starting point and the proper procedure to get there so that we can all play!!!

As for as races....I'm looking at the Labor Day weekend (Version 2.?) event in Norfolk, VA w/Hobie Fleet 32 and their Neptune Festival event too. Maybe a Fall race in your area too. Brian Lambert owes me a night out there I think!!! The Tradewinds in KL, and maybe the Miami-KL. (Any reason to go warm in the winter!!!)

Other than that I'm gonna try and hit whatever is local that I can get the P-number to wherever it should be, and of course so that I can get the most needed experience.

Sounds like you've got a solid plan for the season. Remember, though, we're talking about two different things - getting your boat a handicap number to race in the open fleet, or meeting up at a Formula 14 regatta and racing straight up. I went back and re-read this thread, and it seemed like the majority of people that spoke up were not in favor of a single Formula 14 number - just the principle of first-to-finish within the 14s and racing with pre-existing numbers in open fleets. I was expecting that someone would eventually show up with something that was built to fit the box, but doesn't have established numbers. If you're going main and jib, and I were in charge of scoring a regatta you were in, I'd probably look at something like the Nacra 4.5 sloop numbers (79.4 base number) to start.

Good luck - send more pics.

Yeah, I know that there are two differnt things here. My original plan was like many others here, but when this came along for the price....well, I was lucky. Being that this boat is a one-off I'm looking for the input like you've provided, and hope to gain experience as I move from ground crew to sailor...

Anyway, thanks for the recomendation, and I guess I'll contact the powers that be for a number.....

So then the question is.....

Use a sail number, or a boat name or what for an identifier. I definately don't want to screw this up and get a "F-14" number for all. Less confusion is better!!!

More pics as soon as I can.

Rich

If it came to you without any name or designations, name it yourself - I see it has modern dagger boards... maybe call her the Dagger 14? Give it a name - your sail number could change and wouldn't be as descriptive.

The hulls have a nice shape - can you find out who built it?

Well, it came with the Solcat 18 sails, and we know it's not that. The Michigan title only has "Assembled" as the make, and even I can be a bit more creative than that. So I guess I'll name it myself, but must consult with a dear friend for permision for my first choice.

As for as who built it, I've got no clue unless someone on here might have heard of it before. It was supposed to have been built in the Pontiac, Michigan area. The guy I bought it from picked it up for $100.00 at a charity auction there. The owner previous to him donated it, but the charity would not give me any of the donors info, so a dead end there.

I do like the hulls, and the real reason I bid on it,(ebay), was that it's a lot like a Nacra 6.0 but not a direct scale transfer. If I didn't know better I'd swear it was built after reading some of the posts on here. She appears to be well-built strengh wise, a lot like a bigger vessel than the smaller ones I'm familiar with. Bulkheads, stringers, and frames, it is stiff!

Here's another view

You could use the Texel calculator to get a Texel number, pick a comparable U.S. listed boat from the Texel list and use the U.S. dPn of that boat.

If you are going to race, you should try to get a fair dPn for the boat.
While you may not care how you finish, it would be unfair to show up with a one-off boat with an incorrectly high dPn and beat other sailors who do care how they finish.
I have seen alot of bad feelings when that happens.

Hey Sam,

Thanks for that suggestion! I do want a fair number for the boat, but feel that since my helm time is best measured in hours rather than years, I personally have a steep learning curve ahead of me. That simply means to me that I'm personally prepared to not perform up to that number. I'm fine with that, and knowing that as I improve the boat's number should improve accordingly. I think one of my main reasons for posting here in this thread was to,

A) See if anyone else had a one-off and if so were we using similar enough platforms to have the same number.

B) If no one else currently has a P-number for a F-14 one-off, get input from the others involved in F-14 fleet as my experience here is limited.

Rich

Hey Sam -

Agree - that's why I'd go with the Nacra 4.5 numbers - the 4.5 has more sail and is a longer boat, which puts Rich slightly on the more difficult side of the rating. Boat weight sounds about right. Just a jumping off point for him to get onto the course. Hopefully, his race organizers are sending their data to Darline.

John:

Are you talking about Carl Bohannon? He is in my fleet and races in the Wed night on Clear Lake. I thought he broke his boat? Beam? So I have a question. When racing Formula 14 on the 4.3 how do I rig it? Main and spinnaker, main and jib or all the sails?

Doug Snell

Hey Doug -

Necropost! That thread was 8 months in the grave! Lol

The 4.3 is F14 compliant in it's factory-supplied configuration - all the sails.

PM me your address and I'll send you the class sticker that'd I'd bought for a new mainsail I never got.