I just received an email from Darlene. The Portsmouth numbers have been adjusted for the F18 class.

They will all be using the same set of numbers.
Hobie Tiger F18 spi HF18 62.5 66.4 64.1 62.0 59.3

Here is a link to the website.
http://www.ussailing.org/portsmouth/tables04/tables04mh.htm

I think we really have to thank Darlene for reacting quickly to this problem. And I'm very happy to see F18 alive and well in the US.

These are some tough numbers to have to keep up with. Maybe I should have stuck with my H20 .

Mike Hill
Area K Rep. Tiger #1520

Thank you Darlene! You continue to be the BEST!

Mike, we missed you this weekend at St. Joseph! I think you will find the F-18 a better boat (Portsmouth rating) than the Miracle once you figure out the spinnaker! I am looking forward to crewing on one for the first time at Tawas!

Hey Mike,
I hadn't heard that you are racing Tiger, awesome. The F18 number for 05 was a jump from last year. I have tried to start a petition to allow new F18 sailors for 05 to use last years number but I don't think that's going anywhere. The new number is probably more accurate anyway. I Seemed to to ok last weekend, 1st lower portsmouth, had we been scored against the Hobie 20s we would have been second, and that was our first regatta with a breeze. I know there is much more potential downwind speed then I had. Doesn't matter, the F18 fleet is growing so fast that soon we'll be able to leave the calculators at home and just go race.

Hope to see you this summer, either at the Area K qualifier or CF5 or both.

Brent Carlson
NACRA F18 338

Brent,

I just bought the Tiger. I've only had it about 2 weeks and am still trying to figure it out. I'll be at Area K for sure. I hope to make Catfight also but can't commit yet. Any interest in comming down for our Muddy Waters this fall (Sept 10-11)?

I just got my snuffer on Wed. and got to hook it up this weekend. It works really well.

Les, It was unfortunate that I had to miss St. Joe. I would have liked to have gone.

Mike Hill

OK... The rating in the tables are now identical but that's not the problem. What are the rules here.

if a Tiger with big sails and a crew weight of 308 shows up at Cambridge MD this weekend What's his rating?
My calculation is the published Tiger rating + the L 1 or 2 (haven't done the math yet) correction.

If he carries the required lead.... the rating stands.

I think the min crew weight is 325 for these calculations but I have also heard 330.

All opinions welcome.

Mark

Mark,

Assuming that you are referring to the larger sail plan available for heavier crews under F18, I think this boat should be required to carry the additional corrector weights in order to reach the minimum crew weight for the larger F18 sail plan...as I think would be the case in the F18 rules. This move by the Portsmouth committee indicates that they now consider the Tiger as an F18 (which should be the case) and no longer recognize an individual Tiger rating.

I hope this posts ok. This is the F18 rules for weight. The Tiger rules are 309 or greater. Less than 309 must carry the weight to get to 309. So it just depends on if they register as an F18 or a Tiger which rules they have to abide by.

Weight lbs. Added Weight lbs. Weight kg Added Weight kg Jib sq m Spin sq m
253 17 115 7.5 3.45 19
255 15 116 7 3.45 19
257 14 117 6.5 3.45 19
260 13 118 6 3.45 19
262 12 119 5.5 3.45 19
264 11 120 5 3.45 19
266 10 121 4.5 3.45 19
268 9 122 4 3.45 19
271 8 123 3.5 3.45 19
273 7 124 3 3.45 19
275 6 125 2.5 3.45 19
277 4 126 2 3.45 19
279 3 127 1.5 3.45 19
282 2 128 1 3.45 19
284 1 129 0.5 3.45 19
286 0 130 0 3.45 19
288 0 131 0 3.45 19
290 0 132 0 3.45 19
293 0 133 0 3.45 19
295 0 134 0 3.45 19
297 0 135 0 3.45 19
299 0 136 0 3.45 19
301 0 137 0 3.45 19
304 0 138 0 3.45 19
306 0 139 0 3.45 19
Larger Spinaker
308 11 140 5 4.15 21
310 10 141 4.5 4.15 21
312 9 142 4 4.15 21
315 8 143 3.5 4.15 21
317 7 144 3 4.15 21
319 6 145 2.5 4.15 21
321 4 146 2 4.15 21
323 3 147 1.5 4.15 21
326 2 148 1 4.15 21
328 1 149 0.5 4.15 21
330 0 150 0 4.15 21

Mike Hill
Tiger #1520

2003: 58.8 for Tornado with new rig.
2004: 59.0 "

This puts the boat right with the I20 (59.2)...actually slower than it for the light winds...but still way ahead at the strongest range (55.5 T vs 57.3 I20).

You are speaking hypothetically, I understand this, however, it is far to simple for that crew to carry about 11 pounds and compete with the other four or five F18's racing this weekend. If they choose not to, and I don't know why they would, then use the number that has been provided. Done and done.




The minimum weight for the large sail plan while racing F18 is 330lbs.
Crews with a combined weight of 308 may compete using the larger sail plan provided they carry corrector weight equal to half of the difference between 330lbs and the actual weight of the crew.

Tracie

Thanks Tracie, It's great to hear that 5 F18's are coming to Cambridge this weekend!

Still I think the question for a scorekeeper is what to do when the sailor... Says... No... I have a rating in the Portsmouth listings for a Hobie Tiger and I am over my minimum class weight as specified by Tiger one design rules. My rating stands as printed! Indeed, he is following the letter of the portsmouth rules... (IMO not the spirit.)

From my point of view: either remove the Tiger and Nacra F18 entries from the PN listings OR muddle around with various manufacturer class rules... eg Hobie and have them raise their crew minimum's for the large sails.... Hell is likely to freeze over first!

For me... the solution is straitforward... Remove ALL manufacturer specific F18 ratings from the PN listing. If you are sailing light according to the F18 rules... the scorer will assign an L correction.

Having said this, in point of fact, the listings are usefull in order to collect data for the day when the Tiger and Nacra F18's are no longer competitive in the F18 class and deserve a softer rating then current F18 boats. For example the first generation F18's, the Dart Hawk and the Nacra Inter 18 seem to be a bit slower then the current boats and a softer rating may keep these sailors competing. Who knows... the AHPC F18 may well obsolete the Tiger and Nacra F18 after this years world championship.
On balance this data can be collected in other ways.

Take Care
Mark

Wouldn't the problem be solved by having a tiger rating that is slightly higher than the F18 rating ?

Afterall they are sailing with a full complement of the big sails without corrector weights and at a lower minimum weight. Ergo the one-design rating can never be lower than the F18 rating ?

For some reason I think that in this case nobody will want to run on the Tiger OD rating then. Call me clearvoyant !

Wouter

Wouter you are not "clearvoyant"(you mean clarivoyant), you are ignorant.
You have been complaining about the U.S. portsmouth system for years and you still don't understand how it works.
The portsmouth rating is based upon real world racing results, not someones' wish to manipulate racing classes.
Only a non-racer like you would suggest such garbage.

Hey Mike,I have been seriously considering the Great Lakes F18 Championship at Twas the same weekend as Muddy Waters. There is also a CRAW regatta only 3 hours away the same weekend. The draw to Carlyle is the chance of warmer temps. That's still two months away.

Interesting point about the Tiger rules and F18 rules. How about this situation. A Tiger at 305 lbs crew shows up. Under F18 rules he has the wrong rig, and that's that. This is my personal situation, which led be to buy a NACRA rather then the Tiger. I understand I could run a small sail plan on the Tiger, I chose to avoid the issue altogether. Personally, I feel the Hobie Class is doing the Tiger and Formula class an injustice by adopting a second set of rules regarding sail plan. The Tiger was developed around the formula, why would they adopt rules that don't allow the formula? I may never understand the ways of the HCA, or as I like to refer to it the H(16)CA.

It is in the race organizers best interest decide how they plan to handle these situations and include that policy in the race instructions and NOR before it becomes an issue. I feel that unless its a Hobie points regatta, F18 rules should override the Tiger rules, but that is up to the race organizers,

Hello B

What do you do if the Tiger team is sailing at 290 with the large sails (the only ones he has)? For F18's... he would have to use the small sails and his rating stands as published. What do I do now... create an oversized headsail penalty for the larger then rated sails AND a L penalty because he is using large sails and underweight.

Oops

Mark

There is no injustice done to the F18 class by the Tiger Class, the Hobie Class Association or the Hobie Factories...

The Hobie Tiger Class, single sail plan, is a simplification for One-Design racing. The idea is to get more sailors sailing and limit the hassles. That is the basic Hobie Class concept as it always has been. This basic Hobie concept was put in place for the Tiger Class when Hobie decided to build the Tiger F18. Hobie Tiger sailors can sail both One-Design and F18… the best of both Worlds.

Hobie Tiger sailors don’t have to carry two sets of sails depending on what crew they have at a regatta. They are able to race with girl friends and wives or as teams that are not full-on burly men. Therefore, the lighter class crew weight and single sail plan.

Seems that most all of the competitors in the Hobie Tiger One-Design fleet fit the F18 requirement for the higher weight and the larger sail plan anyway.

For Tiger teams that are under-weight and want to sail F18 format races... the smaller sail plan is available to buy with the boat or as an second set.

There are a lot of Tiger One-Design sailors that would like to do an occasional handicap race. That would be the concept of the Tiger One-Design handicap rating. I am told that, in Tiger One-Design racing, sailing light has not been shown to be an advantage anyway. That appears to be why the rating has been set at the same as F18 at this point… Adjustments to the rating should be done using actual racing results.

Hello Matt,
Nobody is saying that an injustice has been done purposfully.

We just have a ratings issue that in the interest of fairness to the tiger competitors must be resolved in portsmouth racing.

One solution would be declare that all tigers must comply with F18 rules for portsmouth. Since that might prevent someone from racing. I think we must go further and let them race they way they want... just compute a handicap. We should err on the harsh side with all of these exceptions.

Do you have a proposal?

How about the current F18 rating x the L2 handicap and published as the tiger OD rating for portsmouth racing. (one hit for weight and on hit for the large sail

With respect to collecting data... that's fine however it is difficult for the scorekeeper to keep track of what boat is sailing in what configuration. I suspect that the data are scrambled at that point and it will be a long time before we have an estimate on what the big sails and light weight mean at 4 different windspeeds. Till then we need to set some guidelines for scorekeepers so that the ratings have the apperarance of being fair to all.

My opinion…

I agree. My first thought was to have the boats conform to the F18 rule to race Portsmouth, but making them buy sails for an occasional race doesn’t make sense for the light Tiger teams or the regattas they might not attend if forced to do so. (Racing F18 format events is completely different. They should conform to the F18 rules)

Because there are a large number of Tigers sailing One-Design primarily, I think a fixed One-Design rating makes more sense and without actual data, maybe it should be on the harsh side for the time being. Time will tell if it is correct. This looks like it would affect very few teams anyway.

But, lighter=faster? Not necessarily.

It appears that there is no shown advantage to sailing light on the Tiger and apparently no disadvantage to being heavy. There are some major regattas won by teams weighing in at around 360 pounds. Greg and Jacques weigh in at between 312-320. Other top teams are weighing in on the heavy side. We are not seeing the light teams having an advantage here.

I think it is likely a matter of hiking weight and strength that makes the heavier teams faster, so why the need to penalize a team for being light? This is not a Hobie 16 where it has been shown to be faster when sailed light, but even on a 16 there is a point where you need enough weight to be fast.

With more data, it may actually show that what we have seen in Tiger One-Design is true... the Tiger sails faster with a heavier team that can hold the boat down. In that case, the rating could just be the same as F18 and the sailors are already at a disadvantage by sailing the lighter Tiger Class weight.

>With respect to collecting data... that's fine however it is difficult for the scorekeeper to keep track of what boat is sailing in what configuration. I suspect that the data are scrambled at that point and it will be a long time before we have an estimate on what the big sails and light weight mean at 4 different windspeeds. Till then we need to set some guidelines for scorekeepers so that the ratings have the apperarance of being fair to all.<

Mark, you have pointed out one of the logistical problems with the portsmouth system, HOW results are collected and reported.
Race Committees and Scorekeepers are not experts at Class rules and don't collect anymore information than they need.
If a skipper says they are Class legal and no one complains, that is all they need.
They don't record crew weights.

Another problem is a skewed number because of a limited number of results reported.
This problem is exacerbated when it is a new Class and the majority of their racing is Class racing.
The NAF 18 has worked very hard to promote Class races and many Tigers Class race at Hobie regattas.
Most Class racing doesn't get submitted to the Portsmouth committee.
Skippers who get a lot of Class racing learn from each other and become faster sailors, sooner.
The owner of a Tiger who has to race HC, will be a slower sailor, longer and the results will more likely be sent to Darlene.

It has been said many times, the Portsmouth system works great once it has lots of data to work with.

all versions of "yardsticking" by back calculation of sailing performances between different classes of boats at different events over a period of time, has always proved to be fraught with "abnormalities" between the "handycaps" of various of the classes that are included within the system. There are also many occasions that these handycaps have been known to have been open to "manipulation" if certain sailors know which events results are to be used for the calculations. These types of systems are far from perfect and/or acurate, but they seem to be one of the best that we have been able to come up with, particularly for "off the beach" typr cats.

Just one of the reasons for the growth of the "formula" class of cats.
When any cat complies to the formula, they sail for "across the line first wins" Completely unambiguous. And when one cat that is "formula" sails in a mixed regatta, their rating/handycap is the same as for all cats conforming to that same formula. Helps keep this simple. race committees love simplicity.