Hi all,

I was out sailing today in the Gulf of Mexico on my Prindle 18' with winds of 15 knots or more. Great (and wild) day of sailing, but I had difficulty tacking because of the high wind and oncoming waves. Here's my question: Is it normal to be in situations where tacking is basically impossible and you have to jibe instead, or can most of you pull it through a tack in any condition despite wind and waves? Just wondering whether I'm missing something in technique...

Thanks,
Kevin

You are probably releasing the jib before you are suppost to.

Use the jib to carry your bows about. Once this happens you will be set!

Also try reversing your rudders after the boat stalls. When the wave pushes the boat backwards, the reversed rudders cause the boat to spin around. Kinda like backing a car into a parking spot. Between reversing your rudders and backwinding the jib you should be set. You might want to buy Ricks book for other tips.

Kevin,
Make sure you watch the waves, and try to aim for tacking when you have a relatively smooth spot. Taking a wave on the nose while in the middle of a tack will stop you dead. Do use the jib to help push the bows over - backwind it until the bows have made it through the eye of the wind before you cut it and let it go to the new side. As you get to the eye of the wind, let the main out - this will help let your boat keep turning through the tack, but don't release it too early, as it will also help you initiate the turn up.

If you get in irons, most likely the boat will start to go backwards. Use this to your advantage - push the tiller in the direction you wanted to go, this will steer the stern of the boat in a direction that will point the bows properly. Make sure the main is loose - only sheet the main back in once the boat has fully established itself on the desired course. Trim the jib in as soon as you can the boat has passes head to wind - but don't crank it in too hard at first, let the sail breath. To me this is far better than pulling a circle and jibing.

Thanks, everyone, but perhaps I've mistated my actual question when I wrote, "Is it normal..." Yes, I know that cats are a trifle finicky about tacking, and I do regularly apply the techniques of using the jib to come around and/or backwinding when necessary.

But my real question is still this: Are you guys ever out in conditions where you personally, after applying your best effort and technique from years of cat sailing, find that you simply can't tack and have to jibe instead? Are there indeed "tackless" days or conditions?

Not looking for a treatise on the "how to" of the subject, but just wonderin' if I'm in a class by myself or not...

Thanks,
Kevin

No. If its that rough, I dont go out.

Firstly, agree with Robi, if it is this rough, don't go out. I usually have the opposite worry, gybing in the really big stuff is much scarier that tacking.....

All the above is true, it is always much more dangerous gybing, that's is why you should have a sticker on your boom that says "duck or Die".

It is "normal" for boats without boards to have a harder time tacking (than boats with boards) in certain wind and sea conditions. Steep, close-together chop can be a problem for tacking even in lighter air. I would offer some more suggestions, but you said you don't want a treatise on HOW to do it.

If the wind is really strong, though, it can be scarier to jibe. If you really need to get onto the other tack because you are heading for a large, hard, inanimate object (like the northern coast of Maine), there is a technique called the Dime Tack described in the Hobie U. manual.

Not that I am trying to sell you something, but I highly recommend your getting the new video "Upwind & Rolltacking" for cats. Check it out at Catsailors OnLineMarineStore.., Books & Videos
Nothing against the advice you have been given, but most of it is stuff we USED to use, that does not work well these days.
We USED to backwind the jib, stop and back the boat up, reverse the rudders, and finally get under way. That is why all the monohull folks laughed at us. It USED to take 20 to 40 seconds to tack a boat. That equates to about a boat length per second, or 20 to 40 boat lengths.
Now, we know to sail the jib through the turn and keep the boat moving.., now we don't stop the boat and are back up to high speed in about 4 seconds.

By the way, the idea of backwinding the jib (leaving it cleated) in heavy conditions is a good way to flip the boat over backward.

Jibing is much more dangerous than tacking in heavy air. Although, tacking with the jib cleated, as mentioned above, is also dangerous. I was in a distance race that had the winds really howling and had a comfortable lead on some young and crazy sailors that were in second spot.
If we capsized, they would probably win. It was a downwind race, so we dumped the sails (so we would not capsize during the transition from downwind thru reach to close hauled)+, headed up, sheeted in and tacked.
My crew called me "chicken" but we won the race.

Good luck,
Rick

The Gulf in our area tends to tall short spaced chop when the breeze is up expecially when the wind is on shore. The wave action can make it difficult to tack.I can think of one time around one of the hurricanes this summer I was out there and kicked back for a few minutes. Upon getting going again I couldn't get the boat to tack.It was because I wasn't doing it right. Boat not up to speed,weight in wrong place and not quickly tacking as the bows go up the wave........Ok, I was trying not to spill my beer

Have Fun!

Mary--I would be glad to hear your tips!! I wasn't trying to come across as a know-it-all, but I just didn't want people to feel like they had to supply an exhaustive "how to". In the meantime, I'll check Hobie U today re: the dime tack. I was almost caught in an embarassing situation yesterday where the "immovable object" was the seawall of some waterfront property. (It was such a thrilling beam reach toward shore, we didn't break off as early as we should have...)

Hmm, I hadn't considered that I might be suffering from a boardless boat here. I wouldn't trade that in my particular situation, however, considering all the shallows where I usually sail at.

Regarding high wind gybing (proper sp?) in rougher seas, it certainly is a tad thrilling. Sometimes it would be nice to have a set of brakes on this thing!!

Thanks,
Kevin

Where are you & crew positioned as the tack takes place? Generally you should move aft on the windward hull just as you start the turn. Do not jam the rudders over hard, let them carve your turn (just like in downhill skiing) as this maintains speed. Do not let the tiller go through any point in the turn, keep applying helm, increasing the angle as speed drops. Keep your & crew's weight on the aft windward corner until the bows are through the eye of the wind and heading off wind. The point is to raise the bows a little, effectively making a shorter water line and to create a pivot point on the windward transom of the boat. The crew will generally want to scrable to the opposite side asap...this is wrong. He/she can do all the jib tending needed through the turn while positioned on the windward aft section. As you come to head to wind, ease out the mainsheet to as not to go into irons and aid bearing off on the new tack. Get the jib sheeted and pulling in on the new tack first, before sheeting in the main.

I think Catman gave you a big clue -- let the waves help you rather than hinder you. Start your tack as you are going up the front of a wave. Try to time it so that you will be just past head to wind as you reach the top of the wave. Then the next oncoming wave will help to push you over onto the new tack. Easier said than done. I still haven't totally mastered that, because my boat is not only boardless, it also does not have a jib. I need more practice.

I think of it sort of like skiing moguls and learning at just what point on each hill to make your turn.

Again, thanks to everyone for the ideas. No, I hadn't considered the importance of crew position during the tack, but having heard it, it makes a lot of sense. Also, timing the tack in conjunction with the waves wasn't on my radar, either.

Now I can't wait to get out there again and experiment!

BTW, my max speed yesterday was 19.7 mph. Is that about all I can expect from an '88 Prindle 18?


Kevin

On the T we have no problem tacking in waves despite not haveing the jib to help us out (self tacker).

As mentioned above.... Go in with pace, time your tack with the waves and most important, roll tack. I will stay on the wire until just after head to wind and am right at the transom. The crew will come of the wire about 1/4 way through the tack and will be on the new side hooking up before I am under the boom.

To answer your original question, while I do not know the Prindle 18, I would say it is not normal to have trouble tacking in 15knots, or anything under 20. If you have good speed and are really close hauled (get as close to the wind as possible without slowing down), wait for the right wave patern and be positive, most modern cats should tack most of the time !

One thing about tacking in a big breeze is there is a natural equalibrium between tacking and coming in off the wire. It is much easier to tack from the wire at full speed than it is to come in off the wire, then tack.

In 15 knots of breeze you need to be moving full speed double trapped when you start the tack. The act of heading the boat up into the wind will reduce the heeling force allowing you to come in off the wire WITHOUT easing the mainsail. As your boat passes head to wind you (the helmsman) will probably be going across the centerline of the boat and finally easing the mainsail (just a foot or two). As you start to bear away a little beyond the new close-hauled course it will neccesitate your going out on the wire to counter balance the new heeling forces. Sheet the main back in and carve back up to a good close-hauled course on the new tack.

In my experience the key to doing this successfully is being smooth, turning the boat relatively quickly before it has time to slow down, never letting go of the tiller, getting across the boat really quickly, and starting and finishing the tack on the wire.

Kevin-
I DO know the P 18 as I have one, also a P 15 as well as a Taipan and Flyer. There are a couple of issues specific to the P 18 (especially when compared to centerboard cats!)- It has fairly deep hulls and VERY small rudders (for that boat- they are fine on the 15 and 16 but not for the 18, they even tried these same rudders on the original P 19 and even with the boards on that boat they were too small so they upgraded to larger rudders). Perhaps you have experienced the wild downwind ride when a gust hits and the bows go down, the stern rises lifting all but about 3 inches of the rudder out of the water and the boat goes where it wants - Straight ahead! So beware tryig to jibe in big winds for this reason. When tacking all the tips given are good but you really need to get your weight aft (the rocker is pretty far back on this boat) and try to "roll tack" the boat as much as possible. The mast is pretty heavy and quite tall so make sure your crew weight is capable of righting the boat before you go over while sailing. Oh, also REALLY sheet out the mainsheet as you cross the wind, have the crew get the jib in fast and wait until the boat is moving to sheet back in tight or you will round up or stall the rudders. If you really love the boat I would recommend updating the rudders to the P 19 ones - you will have much more control.

Kirt

Kirt-
Thanks for all the info specific to the P18! Yes, I have experienced that wild downwind feeling, especially when the rudders kick up over a sand bar while underway. (Almost got introduced to a nearby fishing boat a couple of weeks ago. )

Three questions:

1) Will the P19 rudders fit my P18 w/out modification, or would I have to change the castings as well?

2) Why is a "roll tack" called a roll tack? What's the significance of the word "roll"?

3) When you say, "have the crew get the jib in fast", do you simply mean getting it set properly for new course after crossing the headwind?

Thanks,
Kevin