Since the Fox has been a marketing failure in the US and Hobie says they are continuing with the Miracle 20, I've been thinking about what changes could be made to the Hobie 20 to bring it up to speed and enable it to compete, boat for boat with I20s, for example. Here are the two changes that I think would be most cost effective and make the biggest improvement.
1. Add a spinnaker with snuffer. My thought is to go around 300 sq. ft. (the older "accessory" spinnaker Hobie offered was about 300-320 sq. ft.) , NOT the smaller Tiger spin, which seems too small for a 20 footer.

2. Hobie should build an insert to put in the dagger board wells to re-size them for more modern, high aspect dagger boards similar to the I20. The low aspect H20 dagger boards have a lot of drag.

It seems to me that these two mods would invigorate the H20 and make it very competitive with more current 20 footers. I know it would still have all the shin buster pieces on the tramp and wouldn't have a self tacking jib, but we would get the extra power off wind and up wind match any 20 foot boat.

Hobie gets to sell retrofit kits for dagger boards, spinnaker kits and maybe even more new boats.

What do all you design experts think?

David
H20 781 (obviously)

a carbon mast and proper square top main would go a long way as well.

If you want to compete boat for boat one-design racing is the answer.
Who cares if it's an Inter 20 or a Hobie 20. Speed is relative. Go with the best fleet. If you don't have a C Class you're not playing the speed game.
Unless your some kind of millionaire you will always be racing a boat that is some degree of slow when compared to truly fast boats.

Making the kind of changes you are talking about to the H20 will destroy the existing one-design class. As others have pointed out if you want to sail the H20 then leave it alone and enjoy the one design racing it offers. If you want a boat that performs like an I20 then get an I20.

Prindle tried to do exactly what you are talking about to the P19 making the P19MX and IMHO this action hastened the death of the class.

Dave

I wonder if more Hobie 20's would come to distance races if they had a spinnaker.

Or would making the spinnaker class-legal destroy the current Hobie 20 one-design class?

Hobie 20 sailors could add spinnakers to their boats, at least to use for Portsmouth racing, just as other classes have, but I haven't heard of many doing that.

Whoops, Dave's post beat me to it about it destroying the existing one-design class.

I'd love to sail my 20 with a spin, but it would change the class from a couple's class with a lower weight limit of 295 pounds to one that required heavier, stronger sailors. If I were to sail my H20 in a distance race I'd just retrofit it with a spinnaker for those events. Granted, the daggers do have a lot of drag compared with higher-aspect designs, but the boat is still faster than the I20 upwind and downwind the daggers are half-way up anyway. I think with sailors of equal ability, it would be a close race. As proof, an H20 won the Great Texas Cat Challenge.

I probably should have added a little background. In Division 11 the H20 fleet is pretty much done. Our division racing is 16s, 17s and a smattering of 18s. We do have some H20s in and around the DC area and find our racing portsmouth style on the Chesapeake with CRAC. Even the I20s don't get enough together to race one design. I am a huge fan of one design, but, sadly, that isn't happening with any boat in my area except the A cats.

Regarding killing the class; how alive is it at the present? I wonder how many H20s Hobie sells each year; I haven't seen any new ones. My idea was that taking the risk in changing the rules would keep the boat more current and maybe stimulate sales.

To be fair, I have heard that the H20 is the only larger cat that mixed crews can sail because it doesn't have a spin. I think this is true, as I have sailed with a number of females and most of them were great crew, but wouldn't have had the strength to handle a spinnaker (they didn't think so either). But I don't think the H20 class has many mixed crews sailing the boat and the game seems to have gone to spin boats; certainly for distance racing and even for buoy racing. Everyone says they are more exciting and once you go there, you don't want to go back. I like the Hobie 20; I think its a good looking boat and sails well and would like to see it stay alive as a class.

David
H20 781

Pitchpoledave said:
"a carbon mast and proper square top main would go a long way as well."

I thought of that, but wouldn't that be more expensive to retrofit? My hope would be to make changes that current owners might realistically invest in.

David
H20 781

Seriously now.

The I20 is a lot faster than the H20 upwind. Believe me I know I sailed the H20 a lot.

If you change the boards and add a chute you will have a boat that is still slightly slower than an I20. If you buy a carbon mast and a larger main sail you might be getting close to the speed. So for about $7000 dollars you might have a boat that could compete head to head with an I20. Seems to me you would be a lot better off selling the H20 and getting into a class that is popular in your area. H16, H17, F18, or I20.

Keep One Hull Flying,
Mike Hill

With due respect :

I always wondered why the introduction of the midpole snuffer, the selftacker, the flatter spis, the new rudderboards and other upgrades never destroyed the US I-20 class ?

We always hear how allowing chance destroys a class but all the classes are are growing and surviving are exactly the classes that allow chance ! I-20's, F18's, A-cats, I-17, even F16's

Don't we all think it is time to face the reality ? That not chance kills a class but stagnation.


To Davidn I would like to say.

If you don't have a meaningful H20 class nearby then go for it !

In order :

Spinnaker
Selftacker (just because it make spi sailing more comfortable)
Squaretop main

Forget out the rest or decide to buy a different boat before adding the spi, selftacker and squaretop main.

With regards to Girls handling spi's. Have them steer and have yourself do the spi and get double ratchets on each side (4 in total). If Jennifer Lindsay and Kelly Gray can win their Alter cup qualifier and sail a Tiger in training then so can you !

Wouter

Just to be clear, not planning any changes to the 20 nor do I think we would, ever.

As for the I20's, all the mods presented simply don't make that much difference. I don't have a laced tramp, mid pole snuffer, or the new rudders. Don't miss them either! None of the mods obsoleted the existing boats. Many haven’t put ANY of the mods on their boat and do just fine.

The changes David is talking about making to the H20... new dagger boards, spin, and a larger main those are major changes and will obsolete every one of the existing H20’s.

Not everyone wants to race Formula; Formula isn't all things to all people. There are a lot of folks that really enjoy one design. Now I understand all one design classes have undergone changes, but most successful one design classes manage their changes very carefully.

My point to David is to either sick with the H20 as is and get people excited about the class again, or get into an existing formula class or spin enabled one design. Don't spend a [censored] load of money retrofitting a boat just to end up sailing open anyway, unless of course that's your thing.

Dave

If the Hobie 20 and the Hurricane 5.9 are so similar, why not try the SX kit which has given the 5.9 a new lease of life and keeps the cat on the same handicap number it always had.

I think you just made a bunch of H20 drivers very happy!

David,

I understand your reasons fully, Even I like One-design racing. That is not it.

The thing that gets me everytime that the paradox that if so many people prefer and enjoy OD racing then why are all OD classes dead ? In my area only the H16 and Dart 18 are holding on to some OD class but losing ground just the same. All those N5.2, N5.5, N6.0, H17, TheMightyHobie18, P16, P18, P18-2, P19, etc fleets are completely gone.

The biggest example I can refer to is the Tornado class. Over 2/3rds of the members voted against the upgraded Tornado; this would make for a solid base to continue the (classic) Tornado class for years. However; 18 months later the classic Tornado was all but dead and the few break-away sailors gethered a whole new class around them that would dominate once more.

I've seen it happen to all the fleets. Majority of class members votes against ANY changes whatsever. But when the small active core of volunteers leave because THEY want some changes than that whole majority collapses as if they never really existed. Most of them you can find again in the new class, after a few months of being sour, and then it starts all over again. Most of them just don't have a spine, want to have others do the work and resist any change because they can. Never, ever, does it occure to them that they can keep their class if they put some effort in themselfs.

I wish it was different.

Wouter

1: The class did not want the new rig, but ISAF did..
2: The Tornado will have a carbon mast from 2005.

So, we will soon see if changes kills the Tornado class or if no change would have been for the better (straying a bit off topic for this thread now, aren't we?)

Regards
Rolf

Matt, I still wonder how healthy the class is. I only see part of the picture (Division 11), but the H20 is not a functioning class there and it causes me to wonder if that is happening a lot around the country. If Hobie is selling a steady amount (I doubt if any manufacture sells large numbers of any single racing cat model), then I understand Hobies reluctance to consider change.

The thread was part theoretical thinking (its winter, you know) and part practical. My guess is the dagger boards while a change that could only be done with the manufacture as a real model change to the class, would dramatically improve the upwind performance of the H20. Of course, I can add a spin, which I am considering, in order to better compete in the portsmouth racing in which I find myself.

But where are the pockets of Hobie 20 strength?

David
H20 781

[quote]So, we will soon see if changes kills the Tornado class or if no change would have been for the better /quote]
The Tornado was the 4th largest fleet at a UK Cat Nationals this year, with 34 cats. As Yachts and Yachting says this is unprecedented.

"But where are the pockets of Hobie 20 strength?"

Mid-West

I would actually bet that there are more Hobie 20s racing in the US than INter 20s