Congrats ! but you can't dismiss the other postings as simply erroneous
<br>.
<br>: Actually, I wasn’t dismissing anyone’s posts.
<br>
<br>Of course, the H16 is a very respectable class. And let me in this light comment on your Post Miles, with all respect.
<br>
<br>Oh, by the way I was in the race committee during the OPEN Dutch Hobie nationals (Tiger, FOX, FX-one, 16, no 14, no 18, no 20, no 17, not even a open class because to little boats) and witnessed all the races from the counter start line / rescue boat.
<br>
<br>: Just the Dutch scene how easy!
<br>
<br>>>The H16 is far from dead as a class.
<br>
<br>It is certainly not dead, but it is "quieting down" in several places. Dutch F18 nationals attracts some 100+ sailor, H16 national attracted some 25 + boats.
<br>
<br>: So, what were the numbers exactly? Also, F18 worlds saw 85 boats, and the year before that the F18 worlds had 141 boats, so what is that a decline of 56 boats. Seems the F18 class is quieting down.
<br>
<br>: So maybe the H16 class is quieting down in the Dutch arena but that is certainly not the case in many other areas of the world. Once again, I was speaking in the view of the world as a whole, certainly in some places it will be growing, some place maintaining, and some places it will be declining which is true really of any class.
<br>
<br>>>Here is some interesting info: Largest multihull class;
<br>
<br>I would say most SOLD class and it is that without a doubt. I can name several places where it is not the largest racing class (anymore)
<br>
<br>: And I can name several places actually many places where it is the largest class, and also indicate that in many parts of the world it is the only class or close to it. Yes most SOLD, most SAILED, most RACED, etc. from a Global view!
<br>
<br>>>largest multihull Worlds regatta (single class)
<br>
<br>The trick is between the brackets here. Formula classes aren't of course a SINGLE class to the opinion of a lot of sailors. But having said this I still think that hobie 16 still has the largest turnout of competitors partly due to the way hobie runs such an event (providing boats). Of course the Formula sailors need to bring their own boats to the spot were the worlds is held. Now, about 100 boats at Tornado worlds, A-cat world and Tiger worlds sound like pretty respectable turnouts when considering this fact that every one brings his own boat.
<br>
<br>: Yes very respectable but still not the largest. Once again I heard the Tiger worlds had a larger turnout than the F18 worlds – GO Tigers! The Tornado worlds saw only 30 boats, the A Cat worlds saw 91 boats, and the Tiger worlds saw 89 teams. So Wouter none of the events you mentioned had 100 boats, still of course respectable, and 10 boats could be viewed as respectable. You know actually in many parts of the world the F18 class does not even exist were the H16 does. And yes it is hard to read between the brackets because it is hard to compare a one-design class with a Formula class that allows a lot of different cat brands and the one-design that only allows one brand name.
<br>
<br>>>; considered the largest women’s multihull class;
<br>
<br>Well, it is the only all women class that exist so this is was not difficult to achieve. Other classes (Dart 18, F18, Tornado) have women sailing WITH men in the same fleet and therefore do not list separately. It is nice though to have a separate women class.
<br>
<br>: Only women’s class, Yes very nice isn’t it. Other classes such as the Dart class have tried to start women only events with no success; the H16 class is the only multihull class that has succeeded, to my knowledge that is. So actually having a women’s class is very difficult to achieve!
<br>
<br>>> Largest multihull youth class
<br>
<br>Well, that it is. (although it is the only youth class at this moment)
<br>
<br>: For good reason.
<br>
<br>>>; largest disAbled multihull class;
<br>
<br>This is very respectable and praises for that. (no other disabled classes exist)
<br>
<br>: Actually, you need to do a little more research in this area as obviously you know nothing about what is going on in the disAbled multihull world. There is the Challenger II, Windrider, Slants 22, etc. all have had minimal success, so other multihull disAbled classes do exist. Actually its kid of hard to get any sailboat class for those with disAbilities going whether monohull or multihull so once again a great accomplishment for the Trapseat class.
<br>
<br>>>H16 the only multihull used in the Pan American Games;
<br>
<br>And Tornado is the only Olympic class. You won one and the others win one.
<br>
<br>: Actually, it appears I won more than one.
<br>
<br>>>ISAF official youth multihull
<br>
<br>I can not comment for I know to little about that, although it surprises me that they choose to fix this for the comming years. With the general concensus going towards genaker sailing (Intl tornado, Formula classes, Skiff classes and even maxi classes). I would have expected the ISAF to appoint a class that a least had a genaker too. Well, lets call it a miscalculation on my side.
<br>
<br>: Actually it makes perfect sense, the H16 is built on 5 continents, available used for next to nothing, gives an exciting ride, is great to learn and race on, etc., etc.
<br>
<br>>>; H16 Trapseat Worlds (sanctioned by ISAF) the only disAbled multihull worlds event;
<br>
<br>If it is the only class for disabled sailors it would also have the only disabled event.
<br>
<br>: Once again, it is not the only disAbled multihull class and even if it were the only multihull disAbled class, it is still a great accomplishment.
<br>
<br>>> close to 110,000 boat built to date;
<br>
<br>That is undeniable
<br>
<br>>>can’t forget its best surf cat hand down, as that is what it was originally designed to do; and the list goes on and on.
<br>
<br>Now, the list may go on but do the points on the list impact? Disabled class, Womens class, most sold class, most build boat class are all points that don't really determine whether a class is a major player in the cat scene today. Even though it may be largest attended class at worlds doesn't mean that the focus of the catamaran scene is (slowly) shifting away from the H16.
<br>
<br>: You ask “Do the points on this list impact?” what are you nuts? Man you sure minimize any accomplishment the H16 as a boat and class have accomplished. if the F18 class had accomplished half as much as the H16 class you would be bouncing off the walls. If anything the momentum is shifting back toward the H16 but that is my view, which is not your view, but no big deal, right?
<br>
<br>Now I'm sure the H16 class will be here in 5 years time but I'm also sure that we in the Netherlands will be happy to have 15 true race crews (not Ohh lets give a shot crews) on the start line then while F18 is probably expanding past 100 boats all manned by competitive crews.
<br>
<br>: You hope, probably will be all Tigers on the start line! And your prediction may be true (or not) but from the world scene the future of the H16 looks very bright for many many years, but here is a prediction I bet the cats raced now in the F18 worlds will be obsolete in 5 years and the H16 will be going strong very many more years.
<br>
<br>>>If you look at the attendance of H16’s at Hobie regattas and even non-Hobie events it is obvious it also has the largest turnout of any multihull class.
<br>
<br>I can not confirm that for the Netherlands. Certainly the Dutch H16 nationals didn't. And miles maybe right about Texel 1999 (I think he is with a small margin)
<br>
<br>: Actually, a large margin over most classes in the event. Now if you just say F18 without reference to a brand of boat then it’s a small margin but when it comes to brand names that is a different matter. Once again its kind of hard to compare a formula group with a one-design group. With regards to counting the Telex numbers
<br>
<br>: I will count them when they actually have a race where the 16 foot cats finish and when they have wind so the race is not concelled. I did not counts when the 16 foot cats participated and the H16 was the class with the highest participation big or small margin, which kind of surprised me for a non-hobie event.
<br>
<br>but it is without a question which class is the class that RACES around Texel and which class is the class that participates for fun. I support this last claim by noticing that hardly any Texel H16 crew participate in the 2001 H16 nationals which only saw 25 + participants.
<br>
<br>: Once again what were the exact numbers of the H16 national, 25 + could me well over 25? Also if I understand correctly the H16 has never been a big class in the Netherlands, just like in the UK, yet it still goes on which I think is great for the H16 class there. Also I think there is an equal amount of H16 racers who race the Texel for fun and for competition. Many H16 teams are very competitive or course I hope most do it for the fun of it whether they are racing or not.
<br>
<br>>> the H16 remained the largest class represented in this large multihull regatta.
<br>
<br>Let count it again in 2002 Miles. And we're counting F18 and not inter 18, Hobie tiger, Dart hawk etc.
<br>
<br>: Once again I will count it when the 16 foot cats get to compete. Also the F18 class may win the count by a small margin because of all the brands of boats but as a single class the H16 rules in the Telex. Also why don’t we just compare the F18 worlds and the H16 worlds but we know the results of that count.
<br>
<br>>>It is amazing after 30 years the H16 is still so competitive and remains the largest multihull class.
<br>
<br>This is largely tradition. H16 is out of all the major Dutch regatta's as a race class. For example Ronde Tiengemeente 223 boats participated.
<br>
<br>: Nothing wrong with tradition even though some how I think there is more to it than that. Thank God there is more to the world than just the Dutch race scene. May or may not be out of the Dutch regatta’s but not their Dutch Hobie regattas.
<br>
<br>Classes scored were
<br>
<br>There were 16 H16's (found in rating > 110 class) and 57 F18's / 56 iF20's, 10 Intl Tornado's + 5 classic tornados's and 13 Dart 18's.
<br>
<br>: Sounds like a good turn out to me when it comes to a non-Hobie regatta. Most H16 sailors I know only race in Hobie regattas for good reason and because if H16 sailors are going to race they are going to race together. I am the same way as I can only go to so many regattas a year and all are Hobie regattas. So there is much more to considered than looking just at the numbers at non-Hobie regattas.
<br>
<br>H16 only just out participated the Tornado class and now consider that Tornado is the most expensive multihull class.
<br>
<br>>>Now that was a strange point.
<br>
<br>Now of the 58 boats participating in the October Bokaal competition (4 race days on four saterdays in october) there were only 2 H16 compared to 3 Tornado's, 3 Dart 18's and about 21 F18's / 21 iF20. 2 Nacra 6.0 and 1 of nearly each other class.
<br>
<br>: cool a couple of H16’s turned out for a non-Hobie regatta.
<br>
<br>Results can be checked on
www.hellecat.nl<br>
<br>: no problem I believe you. Once again, this is only one part of the world, and I might add a very small part of the world.
<br>
<br>Ronde tiengemeente is the second biggest regatta after Round Texel in NL
<br>
<br>>>You just have to be careful who you listen to as there are many non H16 fans that would love to see the H16 de-throned and have their brand of boat take its places.
<br>
<br>Now and that is why I reacted to this post to this extend and have given some of the data on which I have based my claims and predictions. Now Judge for yourself.
<br>
<br>: I judge your claims and predictions not to be inaccurate and a couple of Dutch races says nothing about the H16 class as a whole. Still it looks like the H16 class there needs some new blood and hopefully the ISAF youth selection will help.
<br>
<br>>>So once again for a global stand point it’s still going strong and actually from all indications the class is growing not shrinking.
<br>
<br>>>No worries!
<br>
<br>Well, maybe it is just me but for a class that has produced over 100.000 boats (much more than any other boat) participations numbers of 25 + at Open Dutch nationals (several belgiums and germans particiapated) and 16 out of 223 and 2 out of 58 sound like a decline to me.
<br>
<br>: It is just you! Well I guess we can say that about many classes. I might add most buy the H16 for recreation, etc. Actually I would think it would be a great accomplishment for any multihull design to hit the 100,000 mark, but I guess to some it is not.
<br>
<br>Now I have no intention of disrespecting the H16 but these are the numbers for at least the Dutch cat scene which is by no means small.
<br>
<br>: Oh give me a break, actually you do intend to disrespect (not be or others but I do feel you do not respect the H16 class or the boat its self), as everyone knows you hate H16’s, its only obvious, from your many past posts.
<br>
<br>: Here are some numbers for you: Continent #1 – Europe 141 H16 teams at Continentals; Continent #2 Aus. going to have 2001 continentals end of Dec., currently over 75 H16 teams registered expecting well over 100; Continent #3 North America 48 H16 teams at continentals (largest class turnout), Trapseat nationals had 22 teams, and youths had 41 teams, Women’s had 9 teams = 120 H16 teams; Continent #4 – South Africa 52 Hobie 16 teams at continentals; #5 South America - 106 H16 teams at continentals. Now add the H16 worlds at 256 teams. Plus don’t forget the 100’s of Hobie regattas world wide with most of the events dominated by the H16. Here in the US the most recent Hobie newsletter indicates out of 17 regattas the H16 had the top totals of 14 regattas with the top 3 regattas having 43, 34, 30. I looked at the other newsletters and it is much the same for this year and last. I also looked at other regattas across the world or the ones I could find such as in Asia, Philippines, and other Hobie regattas and there were good turnouts for the H16’s (always had the top turnouts) there as a matter of fact in most cases they were the only cats present at these regattas and in most cased there were no F18 racing at all. I could go on and on and on but we could debate this over and over gain. Plus Hobie Co Europe, USA, etc. have indicated to me that they have seen a steady increase in H16 sales not a decrease. Now that the ISAF has selection the H16 as the youth cat things will continue to get better for the H16 and of course this will be good for all cat classes.]
<br>
<br>: F18: Continent #1 you indicated 100 teams (actually under 100), Continent #2 No formula Nationals or Continentals, #3 No Formula Nationals or Continentals, #4 No Formula Nationals or Continentals, #5 No Formula 18 Nationals or Continentals. It would be interesting to find out if there were some other F18 nationals or continentals but my web search turned up nothing.
<br>
<br>: To me its obvious the H16 is doing quit well and actually is a strong influence in the Cat scene worldwide. As for the F18 class they would be far worse off if the Tiger was not improving their presence.
<br>
<br>: So there is the numbers or actually just a few of them. So dispute all you want but the facts are there. Of course, I would like to see the F18, F20, etc. do just as well but some how I do not think that is going to happen. I also so the 16HP class maybe having the best future out of the formula classes along maybe with the A Class Cat.
<br>
<br>: Now that was fun
- Miles.<P ID="edit"><FONT class="small"><EM>Edited by sail-s on 11/26/01 01:55 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
