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Re: camaraderie [Re: samevans] #42054
01/02/05 10:27 AM
01/02/05 10:27 AM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 48
Georgia and Texas
Jim Stone Offline
newbie
Jim Stone  Offline
newbie

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 48
Georgia and Texas
Good points regarding the "racing scene" and camraderie. I do have to say that the camraderie is really good during events like the Tybee 500. I also started racing Finns and they have an excellent class vibe, but I see other classes that are not so supportive and fun.

I agree Hobie made a big mistake with their "Exclusion edict" last year.

I believe however, the growth has to be more than building up racing to get the numbers where they should be. Look at cycling... There are only about 40,000 registered racers in the entire US, of those maybe only 5,000 that are Category 1 or 2, yet there are millions of people that participate in fun rides on $1,000 - $7,000 bikes every year. Surfing the same way... I compete in ESA surfing contests but there are 20 non-competitive surfers to every ESA, NSSA, or Pro surfer out there at least. The hook is the "fun" and the sense that it is a cool lifestyle.

I surf, sail, and ride my bike because it is fun... first and foremost! I've raced and competed in all these sports because I personally enjoy the competition and the challenge to get better but if it stops being fun why spend the time and money?

I really think sailing and Cat sailing is missing the emphasis on "fun" and we need to develop events like the Runners and cyclists have (5K/10K/ Marathon - 25/50/100 mile)that allow for a sense of accomplishment but that the competitive stakes are not so high... you can do it strictly for fun to say you did it or you can run as fast as you can and see how good you really are...

I better go... I'm really out of shape and have a big race coming up May 8th... got to train

Jim Stone
Pirates of the Tybeean (Racing Team)



-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: catsailing in trouble? [Re: Mary] #42055
01/02/05 10:54 AM
01/02/05 10:54 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,911
South Florida & the Keys
arbo06 Offline
Pooh-Bah
arbo06  Offline
Pooh-Bah

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,911
South Florida & the Keys
Mary,
Did you get up on the wrong side of the bed? John is awesome, I applaud his efforts.
The point that I was getting at is that we never had to "organize" anything, it just happened naturally. Everyone brought their own coolers and grills, we set up shade and chairs, we sailed all day long, in and out taking different people and making freinds. There was no need to organize it, it just happened, every weekend. Before anybody flames me let me say that I am just pointing out MY PERCEPTION of the differences between "now" and the "past".
The other point I was attempting to make was that I don't think that people get into sailing to start racing, I think the recreation and leisure sailors create a pool from which the racers emerge. Not 100% of course, and maybe not even the majority but The original thread was talking about the decline of cat sailing, not the decline of "racing".

And Mary, I never said that John should and I would never, ever, ever expect John to come out of his pocket with even one penny to provide me or anyone else beer or food, and I certainly would never ask (expect) him to come off the water to do do anyting other than relax.

Perhaps there should be a paradigm shift in our approach to enticing people into this wonderful leisure time activity.




Eric Arbogast
ARC 2101
Miami Yacht Club
Re: camaraderie [Re: samevans] #42056
01/02/05 11:15 AM
01/02/05 11:15 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,911
South Florida & the Keys
arbo06 Offline
Pooh-Bah
arbo06  Offline
Pooh-Bah

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,911
South Florida & the Keys
Sam,
I hope you haven't directed the whiner term towards me, it does irk me when people complain without contributing.

Not everyone can help with organizing events based on personal cirumstances and other limitations so these people should zip their lips and keep the destructive comments to themselves. I can tell you that I never heard anyone complain about non fleet social gatherings at the beach on any given Sunday.


Eric Arbogast
ARC 2101
Miami Yacht Club
Re: catsailing in trouble? [Re: arbo06] #42057
01/02/05 12:33 PM
01/02/05 12:33 PM
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 324
South Florida
SOMA Offline
enthusiast
SOMA  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 324
South Florida
Eric,
what you describe is alive and well in Fort Lauderdale Beach, with the Hobie 16 fleet there. They meet every Sunday, hang out, drink, sail,race. Unfortunately (and this is my experience only) is that Rickenbacker Causeway is not very family friendly these days. My wife and Kids love to go to the beach, but when I suggest Rickenbacker causeway They're all like "oh no, not THERE!!" The beach is full of broken glass and debris, and their only memories from there are the cuts and scrapes they got every time they went. The scene stinks too. Once you're sailing, it's beautiful, but hanging out on the beach there is a little tough to chew.

Ft. Lauderdale, on the other hand is a beautiful sandy beach, and nice people. The downside, is the sailing is nowhere as nice, and the 50 yard drag of the catamaran from trailer to beach through the soft sand can be a little bit of a pain (esp. at the end of the day going uphill).


Fred F (ex Hobie 18)
Re: catsailing in trouble? [Re: Jim Stone] #42058
01/02/05 01:44 PM
01/02/05 01:44 PM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,114
BANNED
MauganN20 Offline
Carpal Tunnel
MauganN20  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,114
BANNED
Quote
Heck, Sandra Bullock brings her dog and reads to the elderly at the assisted living home here and nobody hassles her... except maybe "Maughan17" when he visits but that's another story


Except for that line above I agree with everything Jim has said. Tybee is a cat-sailors dream IMHO. It offers everything you could want and couldn't find nicer people around either.

And Jim, Don't get in between me and Sandra right now, that was during a low-point in our relationship. Now its all good. Did you see that new Chopper I rode in on the other day?

Re: catsailing in trouble? [Re: SOMA] #42059
01/02/05 01:51 PM
01/02/05 01:51 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,911
South Florida & the Keys
arbo06 Offline
Pooh-Bah
arbo06  Offline
Pooh-Bah

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,911
South Florida & the Keys
Fred, you are so right about Rickenbacker. It used to be a Hobie haven until the undesireables came in. Perhaps it just needs to be reclaimed.

i used to bring a rake with me to clean the area I was in and to hopefully set a good example.

How much trouble would I encounter at Ft. Lauderdale with the Arc21?


Eric Arbogast
ARC 2101
Miami Yacht Club
Re: catsailing in trouble? [Re: theboss] #42060
01/02/05 03:22 PM
01/02/05 03:22 PM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 264
Neb
flounder Offline
enthusiast
flounder  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 264
Neb
Sailing in our area has picked up on two fronts:

1. WindSurfing has doubled in the past 3 years. Plus a couple of them have purchased H16s.
2. Hobie Getaways out number everything except for H16s. 90% of the Getaway owners are new sailors here.


From 1995-2001 we were in big decline for a number of reasons:
1. The State of SD leased our beach out to the same guy that ran the main marina. He raised beach slips 300% in 3 years to run us out.

2. Older guys focused on other things other than sailing for a while.

3. No younger people.

4. Fleet didn't host an big events for atleast 5 years.

A few things that have re-grown our group:

1. We petitioned the state to take back the beach. They came through and cut out slip fees by 2/3rds. The state parks dept. is our biggest supporter and groom the beach weekly.

2. Thanks to geezers like my dad that took people for rides on his Wave and Getaway, new Getaway owners now out number everyone except H16 owners.

3. The fleet got their act together and hosted two bigger events in the past 4 years. Both times the wind was huge and word spread. All the old-timers came back and brought a few new faces.

4. The joining of the big-boat marina people and our beach community. More people = more power. Now when the big mono's have their races they plead for a couple of us to join them. Total, all out open class fun.

Re: catsailing in trouble? [Re: theboss] #42061
01/02/05 03:32 PM
01/02/05 03:32 PM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 264
Neb
flounder Offline
enthusiast
flounder  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 264
Neb
Added note:

Hobie class racing is decling, but slightly. In 2000 it was in horrible shape. Then made a come back.

I think the future really hindges on the factory. The H20 and H16 are the race boats here. If the H20 is cut off, I think most guys will go back to the H16 rather than the Tiger.

In fact the best sailors, in my opinion, in the Division are sailing H16s. They like the simplicity of the boat and the fact that the playing field is pretty even boat-wise.

Hobie needs to get a phase out plan for the H16 and replace it with a modern 16-18 footer. Something easy to setup that can race. There has to be a middle ground between HT and an H16.

There is the challange Hobie! Replace your cash cow with something new, flexible and more exciting.

Re: catsailing in trouble? [Re: flounder] #42062
01/03/05 09:05 AM
01/03/05 09:05 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 894
Branford, CT
rhodysail Offline
old hand
rhodysail  Offline
old hand

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 894
Branford, CT
Quote

Hobie needs to get a phase out plan for the H16


Are you the same guy who came up with the New Coke idea?

Re: catsailing in trouble? [Re: arbo06] #42063
01/03/05 09:34 AM
01/03/05 09:34 AM
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 324
South Florida
SOMA Offline
enthusiast
SOMA  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 324
South Florida
[quote

How much trouble would I encounter at Ft. Lauderdale with the Arc21? [/quote]

Yeah, that's the only thing... They don't take kindly to non 16 sailors. They will try to talk you into buying one, for sure! But all kidding aside, there are other boats that sail from there also. There's even one of the CABB sailors that goes there regularly (with the A Class catamaran).


Fred F (ex Hobie 18)
Re: catsailing in trouble? [Re: rhodysail] #42064
01/03/05 12:17 PM
01/03/05 12:17 PM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 264
Neb
flounder Offline
enthusiast
flounder  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 264
Neb
No idea what you mean by Coke, but I am sure you are being sarcastic.

As long as the H16 is the face of Hobie, Hobie Cat will look dated. There is no way around it.

Re: catsailing in trouble? [Re: flounder] #42065
01/03/05 01:15 PM
01/03/05 01:15 PM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
Mary Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mary  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
No more dated looking than all the biggest one-design classes in the world.

Re: catsailing in trouble? [Re: flounder] #42066
01/03/05 01:23 PM
01/03/05 01:23 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 894
Branford, CT
rhodysail Offline
old hand
rhodysail  Offline
old hand

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 894
Branford, CT
Quote
No idea what you mean by Coke, but I am sure you are being sarcastic.

As long as the H16 is the face of Hobie, Hobie Cat will look dated. There is no way around it.


You must be too young to remember. New Coke was probably the biggest marketing failure of all time.
The moral of the story: If it ain't broke don't fix it.


[Linked Image]

Re: catsailing in trouble? [Re: rhodysail] #42067
01/03/05 01:38 PM
01/03/05 01:38 PM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 264
Neb
flounder Offline
enthusiast
flounder  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 264
Neb
I'm 30.

"Ain't broke don't fix it"... famous last words.

Translation: "Living on borrowed time".

Re: catsailing in trouble? [Re: flounder] #42068
01/03/05 02:35 PM
01/03/05 02:35 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 54
PA, Bucks
N
Nieuwkerk Offline
journeyman
Nieuwkerk  Offline
journeyman
N

Joined: May 2003
Posts: 54
PA, Bucks
Quote
I'm 30.

"Ain't broke don't fix it"... famous last words.

Translation: "Living on borrowed time".


Question: Are Optimists, Lightnings, Flying Scots, Thistles and Lasers (I'm sure I missed a bunch here) living on borrowed time?

While I love technology and change, I'm not sure it applies to Hobie and their H16 - particularly when you have so many die-hards out there.

Bill Nieuwkerk
N6.0

Re: catsailing in trouble? [Re: Nieuwkerk] #42069
01/03/05 03:12 PM
01/03/05 03:12 PM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
Mary Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mary  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
"Die-hards" -- Translation: Love for the boat and loyalty to the class.

Not enough of those values around these days.

Re: catsailing in trouble? [Re: Mary] #42070
01/03/05 05:02 PM
01/03/05 05:02 PM
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 334
Thunder Bay ON CAN
M
mmadge Offline
enthusiast
mmadge  Offline
enthusiast
M

Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 334
Thunder Bay ON CAN
Well said Mary

Re: catsailing in trouble? [Re: mmadge] #42071
01/03/05 05:07 PM
01/03/05 05:07 PM
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 334
Thunder Bay ON CAN
M
mmadge Offline
enthusiast
mmadge  Offline
enthusiast
M

Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 334
Thunder Bay ON CAN
See my earlier post on (Sailing Anarchy One Design Survey Results ( Pages 1 2 all ) )

Re: catsailing in trouble? [Re: Mary] #42072
01/03/05 05:08 PM
01/03/05 05:08 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mark Schneider  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
I think you are missing his point.

His opinion concerns attracting new sailors. His point is that that the colors, shape, marketing etc don't appeal to the target market, 18 to 30 somethings who don't sail anything right now.

Your point of view is from a one design RACERS perspective.

IMO, I don't think many first time buyers who were introduced to a cat while at a resort are concerned with the racing class presence or absence.

When I went to the Annapolis boat show MANY years ago with the goal of buying a 16 foot cat. 5 boats were on display each marketed quite differently. Isotope marketed their 16 as family cruiser. (not interested). Prindle marketed their boat as a better sailing boat then the hobie 16 and faster upwind. (I was interested in better sailing since my previous experience with a hobie 16 rental which had a huge amount of weather helm) Hobie marketed their boat as the Hobie life style and great one design racing fleets around the country. (The Hobie lifestyle crap was just that... with a capitol C.... the racing fleet stuff did not register because I was just not interested in racing. They did not do a great job with my issue of the weather helm) Nacra only had pictures of their 5.0. (they were showing a 5.8) Dart had a very racy classy looking boat and marketed it as a single hander... double hander with ISAF approval, they also mentioned a great rudder system. (I had never heard of a Dart before the show and was very suspicious. I was leaning towards the Prindle 16.)

In the end, Only Dart scheduled a test sail at Sandy Point... Nacra showed up with a 5.0 at the Sandy Point beach and also offered rides (pissed the hell out of the Dart guy). I sailed both and liked and bought a Dart (which I still sail and race solo for kicks... damn those sails are old.)

My biggest concern at the time was (parts and support) since the importer was in Conn and the boat was made in England. In the end... there was a US Dart Class (Thanks to the Fondricks and 3 or 4 local very good Dart rec sailors, one of whom acted as an agent for the boat and they continued to sail at Sandy Point for several years. (Its the only public launch site.) The Hobie 16 racing fleet never sailed out of Sandy Point for races or recreation and I did not meet these folks until several years later.

For me... if I am a new person looking into buying a new boat... I want to know about the support that is around for me... that means a physical dealer who will answer all of my dumb questions and not make me feel dumb. In today's lingo... a user group exists... just won't cut it.. no matter how well meaning it's members are.

I don't have an opinion about whether a H16 looks hot or old... I just don't think that a one design racing fleet means much for new would be cat sailors.

I also think that most new sailors are not looking at their boat as entry into a new social scene... They want to sail with their family and friends.

(I think that such a structure is critical to keeping people interested in sailing a cat... so maybe some education may be needed about why join a cat club.)

Take Care
Mark


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: catsailing in trouble? [Re: Mark Schneider] #42073
01/03/05 06:37 PM
01/03/05 06:37 PM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
Mary Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mary  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
Mark,
I don't know why you associate belonging to a class with racing. There are many people who belong to class associations and do not race. They belong just because they love their boat and want to support the class association. And, because they love their boat, they want other people to be introduced to that boat and love it, too.

I don't know why it so difficult for people to understand how people can actually be in love with a particular class of boat and have no desire to keep switching to newer and younger and more beautiful designs.

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