Hi Mary,
Here's the way I see it. Most cat sailors like one design racing. There is another part to it just as important and that is the sailors want the boat to be high performance. The problem is the high performance boats cost more than the low performance boats. The sailing contest in the high performance boat is more challenging, more difficult, more strenuous and the tactics are more complex because of the speed. The cost of the high performance boat drives the number of units sold down and there are several sources for high performance boats which divides the competition even more in the more challenging sailing contest.
At the low end of the performance scale and low cost, we have a dominance in numbers in the H16 class.
So here is the conflict. Large numbers of boats in the low tech low cost class or few numbers of boats in the high tech higher cost classes. What are we going to do? If you want to race the high tech, fast, demanding boats, at this time you race Portsmouth. If you are willing to race low tech, slow boats, sail the dominate beach boat, the H16.
Boat cost is a prime driver in this situation.
Bill

I disagree. The majority of cat sailors aren't interested in any type of racing. They just want the social benefits of the fleet / club. Nothing wrong with that at all. Then there are others that just want to race whatever boat we have at the time be it a Hobie Wave or F18.

All I know is I don't race against a number, I race against other sailors reguardless of the system.

I have started a whole new thread based on what Flounder has just said about non-racing sailors, so please go to that, rather than answering that part of his post here.

As far as what Flounder said about racing against other sailors rather than a number -- if you are racing on handicap, I don't know how you can race against other sailors if they are not racing against you.

Sorry. Can somebody please start a new thread about the virtues of Handicap racing versus boat-for-boat racing?

Sure you can Mary... just sailing across the bay I find myself "racing" against the other boats around me. It is just a feel good thing... you just compare yourself to any other slower boat! I always like to see if I can beat bigger "faster" boats and if they have 4 friends along, all the easier! Of course, that's not real racing.

Mary I think that what has evolved from your question is not primarily what type of "system" sailors prefer to sail under but that first and foremost they just want to sail, and to expand their enjoyment of the sailing experience, they like competing/sailing against other boats/sailors!
What ever the "system" that their competitive sailing is conducted under is really secondary and "when push comes to shove" they will sail under whatever rules/conditions/circumstances apply at the time.
I know that this doesn't directly address the wording of your original query, but personally, I am not sure if there can be a truly "objective" response to it, the responses that have mostly appeared are all in the main, highly "subjective" and as such I am not sure if they will ever accurately give you a definitive answer.

Hi David P

I was using your results to illustrate how the uber one design mindset shapes events like yours. This mindset goes something like this… Those other sailors on those 22 other boat designs at this regatta will see that “NOW WE HAVE ONE DESIGN” They will be impressed… they will want to join us… CAUSE EVERYBODY LOVES ONE DESIGN! (just ask Hobie how well this notion works)

As this thread has laid out… there are many valid reasons WHY this just isn’t working out!

What I think is important to take home from this debate is to note just how bent out of shape over the relationship of “OD racing” to “Just Racing” the USA sailing scene actually is. Compare the USA to the rest of the world at the level of running weekend events! Can you imagine… a fleet of 20 Hobie 16’s… allowing a 5 boat fleet of Darts to start with and race against them in this country for a weekend event….. I can’t (nor can Mary for somewhat different reasons (grin)!. However, it seems like in the EU, Australia and South Africa… This is the NORM!… and not worth any amount of debate….They define this organization of racing as MORE FUN! Yet in the USA… we have a continual debate over this issue.

You noted… “they seemed quite happy when the 5th boat showed up to make for two fleets.” My guess is that two sailors of the 11 were vocal about ……. "WOW… WE GOT ONE DESIGN" and the rest did not give a damn. In fact, the one-design siren song caused your very competitive (as your data show) 11 boat fast spin fleet to split into two! (well if you count a Tornado, I20s, and Single handed I20 a fleet). You did not report the race as Open spin or trophy it that way in keeping with the vocal minority wishes… (Now I wasn’t there but I have a guess as to the sociology) For some reason your experience is not unique … but it does appear to be idiosyncratic to the USA….

So... Two 5 boat fleets seemed better (at least to the most vocal of sailors in the crowd) … only in America.

A reality check for these uber one design folks would be to ask the sailors on the 22 other boat designs if they were impressed by the one design turnout they just witnessed and when they planned to join in…. (Cause EVEYBODY WANTS ONE DESIGN! ) My guess is that hell freezes before this happens.

I understand that TBCS was trying to accommodate the wishes of the sailors who participated. My point is perhaps we would be better off in the long run if your fleet said… I understand what some of you want… This is an open spin race on handicap (fast boats)…. We will award one design trophies in the mail… thanks for coming. This seems to be how the yacht clubs in the rest of the world manage this one design itch of the sailors!

Take Care
Mark

PS... how is your Tornado/P19 Rig working out?
PPS... Is Greg Smith AKA Smitty and still perfectly able to hold an I20 down solo?

Doesn't any one out there feel as I do, that debate about the preference/desire for OD or open racing is somewhat divisive and damaging for the cohesion of catamarans in general?
I remember years back when ALL cats were so few in numbers at any racing venue that the clubs/organisers at regattas would turn any multihulled sailor away because they didn't sail "real" boats. We had an uphill fight for years just to be accepted by the "established" sailing community as being somewhat (almost but not quite) legitimate and therefore PERHAPS entitled to participate in organised racing. During those years all the cats that were finally allowed to compete on the racecourse sailed as "ONE DESIGN" - IE CATAMARANS -. It didn't matter whether you sailed a 13' cat against a 21' cat (and any length in between), you were all sailing as a one-design craft against many designs of mono hulls.
There was this sense of total unity between ALL multi hull sailors. It was them against us, and the bonds that were created between cat sailors during those years have lasted just as strongly right down to the present. No sailor that lived through those early years of cat sailing would ever even try to delineate between the pros and cons of breaking up ANY cat into "elitist", "one class/one design" or another only, at the expense of the "FLEET" of cats as a whole. When strict one design racing reigns supreme (as it very nearly did through the dominance of Hobie in the recent past) it has created a feeling of "power" for the strong (in number) OD classes, and promoted/propagated a sense of "inferiority" towards those who sail cats without major numbers on the water, regardless of the non OD cats performances.
Regardless of whether it offers "better/tighter competition" around the racecourse, it is still doubtful whether it is in the best interests of catamaran sailing and sailors as a whole. To debate OD as opposed to open is as about as legitimate as debating catamarans as opposed to keel boats, or whether oranges are better than apples?

I'll raise my hand. Count me in.

Same story over here cat sailors had to fight for beach rights and respect. They had to join hands with sport fishers and merge into one organisation to get off the ground. Now we are still in the same organisation with them and work together in preserving the rights and permits we have. Now 35 years on, NFB is the best organised sailing organisation in the netherlands with a whole independent race cirquit and an annual race calender of some 50 events (not counting club races and other small races)

Formula 18 class would never have been born if we didn't have open class race oriented mind set over here. All OD classes would have done their best to kill it off in its infancy. Thank god our setup didn't allow that. Now we have one of the most exiting and competitive racing scenes that we can think off. Sailors can go to an 80+ boat event each month and never have to traveller more then 100 miles. And the can race all others no matter what design they bring.

I think we're blessed here.

Wouter

Hi Darryl

I agree with you. FYI.
In the USA back in the day, the numbers were large enough so the cat sailors created their own regattas and paper clubs and largely promoted one design sailing outside of the traditional sailing community. (And the Civil War among us started with respect to WHICH one design) Now the numbers are small and cat sailors are slowly reorganizing their one design clubs and joining yacht clubs and other traditional sailing organizations. Sometimes they join as generic cat sailor... other times they join as a one design fleet.

On the Chesapeake Bay, Cat sailors belong to several geograpically different open cat clubs. We race in a mix of Big Boat Distance Races managed by several yacht clubs under the CBYRA umbrella, We race in small boat regattas hosted by other yacht clubs managed by a different wing of the CBYRA and we host our own events. One of the traditional one design dinghy yacht clubs accepted a small fleet of A class THIS YEAR. For the majority of these events... we are Beach Cats to the host clubs... by and large we split out one design groups on our own.

What happened to our Civil War? .... The passions don't die... it still simmers along and bubbles up with respect to Hobie Policies and this one design dogmatic debate ....

Bottom line... IMO, we are slowly getting to where you are! We do not have a consensus yet as to the best way to revive the sport... Will one design principles save us??? Will a model that works for the rest of the world save us???
100 + emails and counting point to just how contentious the debate is.

Take Care
Mark

Mark, thanks for enlightening us non-Americans as to how the cat-sailing scene in the US evolved. As much as Americans don`t understand how we can co-exist in other countries, we can`t understand how you guys can exist without eachother`s co-operation ! It makes no sense for us to have tiny fleets of separate classes rather than descent sized fleets of mixed boats, just from an organisation point of view. Incidentally, the 4 Darts I mentioned in a previous post have asked for their own start at our club, so it seems OD racing is the preferred option, but sharing a race course is no problem. I think they prefer their own start simply becuase they don`t like us beating them, since we`re faster round a course. They would probably start with us if we were the slower class. No-one wants to be shown that their chosen class of boat is slower than another class, so this is perfectly understandable.

Mary raised a valid question - If OD racing is preferred, why are the guys sailing the one-offs at regattas in open class not doing more to track down other owners of the same class, and coaxing them out onto the race course ? I guess because it`s work & effort to do that.
Some classes such as Hobie have a dealer who`se best interest is to promote OD racing, and does so. This keeps the sailors coming back to events, boosts numbers and sells boats, which is why they put in the effort.
Some classes have an association, who`se committee are passionate about promoting their class for no financial benefit - they realise that it`s in their own best interest to get more boats on the water, as it will increase their own enjoyment to have more competitors.
Other classes don`t have either - unless one of them takes the initiative to do so, their class won`t grow.
Another factor could be that, because boats with strong OD classes will retain higher re-sale values, they tend to be bought by racing minded sailors who are prepared to pay the higher price for a competitive boat. The boats that don`t have strong OD class racing or infrastructure will generally have lower resale values, which attract guys who just want to cruise around and have fun, and are hesitant to race for any number of reasons. We have to look back at ourselves and ask how we got into sailing - most of us probably were just into the sensation of moving along quietly in a gentle breeze, and got into racing much later.
Some of us get into racing, and some never do. Doesn`t make them any less of a sailor though.
So I think many non-racers end up with the boats that have no class racing, and this makes it even harder to get them together to race, since that`s not why they bought the boat. Make any sense ??

I think there are two different types of sailors

The tweakers
and the Non Tweakers

I sailed a Dart 18 for 10 years, followed by a Hurricane for 10 years and then my I17 for the last 4. I bought the Dart 18 becasue at the time it was by far the strongest class in the UK (80's) and was a cheap entry into sailing and because it was a SMOD there was little that changed over time and so running costs were low.

I bought the Hurricane when I left Uni as I wanted a greater challenge and also had plans for a Tornado (and the H59 was the best feeder class in the UK). I was one of the first Hurricane 59 sailors in the country with a kite as I was convinced this was the way to go.

I bought the I17 when my latest crew decided he wanted to do other things and I could not face training up another crew to the level I wanted to compete at.


When I started with the Dart, the simplicity (and thus low cost of ownership) was a big plus and I lived with the fact it was not 100% right/tweekable/ or performed well in all conditions relative to other cats - I was a non tweaker.

The Hurricane 5.9 is/was also a SMOD but still required some tuning / tweaking.

The I17 (in the guise I sail it, ie on handicap) is a more tweaky boat as I have changed things.

As I have got older I have become more of a tweaker/developer of boats.

I enjoyed my time sailing the Dart and Hurricane 5.9 (knowing that all the boats should be the same) but also enjoy sailing my 17 in handicap.

In an ideal world I think most people enjoy both One design class and Handicap racing.

I would love a fleet of 20 I17's at my club (about 200 cats of which only a few actually race) but it is not going to happen so I sail handicap at Grafham (my club)

I also enjoy long distance racing on the 17, which by definition is always handicap.

Rick does not know yet how many starts there will be for the Tradewinds -- won't know until after registration.

As I recall, Rick was using hypothetical numbers just to illustrate the time difference between using the new starting rules and the old starting rules, as far as doing multiple starts. Sorry if the number came across as fact.

With the Seacats in Columbia, SC we have (and I'm guessing) about 30 members. I live about 90 miles away from most of the group so I'm a little out of touch with the day to day activities and details. However, I believe that of those thirty we see about 6 to 8 at two local regattas a year. Only two boats from this club (David M and myself) regularly travel to regattas around the eastern coast. The club has camping / sailing events and used to do a lot of Kayaking and Mountain Biking excursions - there is still some of that but it's gone down some. I think that the 'racers' came to power and those events didn't get the focus that they used to - which brings up an interesting point.

Racers are passionate about their sport and I think they tend to rise to the top of these kinds of organization because of their strong and very dedicated personalities. But I think that that hurts some of these organizations like the Seacats because in reality only a few of the members share the same interest in racing. I could be wrong (again, because I've been pretty out of touch with the group this past year), but I sense that the group is in a bit of a decline in activity.

But then I kind of got off topic again....I'm not sure why we see such a mix of boats on the water even though I'm sure, given a choice, most people would prefer to test their skills in OD racing. It took me four years and four boats to finally get into one design racing so I may be a good case study as to why I ended up open class racing for so long.

Boat A) Late 2000 I decided I wanted to get into sailing after racing one weekend on a friends 21' sport monohull. I remembered the Hobie 16 my father had for a short while when I was a kid and knew I wanted to get into catamarans. I was looking for a Hobie 16 or similar when the same friend with the monohull explained to me that I wanted something with more performance and I agreed. He threw out the brand name 'Nacra' and I eventually found a dirty 'ol Nacra 5.2 two hours away that had been sitting unused for 5 years in a guys backyard. I knew nothing of the local catamaran scene and even less about racing. I ran into a local sailor (Michael Coffman) while cruising Lake Hartwell who also was on a 5.2 who helped introduce me into the scene that I would have found no other way. I eventually was attending about as many recreational events as I was regattas (about 5 and 5 a year). Michael was in college at the time and wasn't attending many regattas so I was sailing in a small open fleet.

Boat B) At this point, recreational sailing was pretty high on my list. My brother lived on Folly Beach in SC and I really liked sailing off the beach. I bought a Hobie 18 from a friend of a friend (same friend with the 21' sport monohull) that was moving from Folly to Peurto Rico. The boat was pretty rough but it was sailable and I left it on the beach and the sails in my brother's appartment with the agreement he would maintain the boat and use it whenever he wanted to as long as I could use it when I came down. I had a motorcycle at the time and planned to cruise down on the bike to spend a weekend sailing (I actually did that only ONCE!). I ended up using the boat only about three or four times a year and the agreement with my brother wasn't going very well. I was hoping he would get hooked on it too but that wasn't working either. The boat was in no condition to race competitively and I ended up selling the boat two years later.

Boat C) I had distance raced some with the 5.2 and I really liked the idea of focusing on that. I had been performing a lot better distance racing than course racing and was consequently enjoying it more. I wanted a bigger boat with spinnaker. Locally everyone was on 18' or shorter boats except for a few Supercats. Class racing entered my mind and I spoke to a few other sailors and they expressed an interest in also getting 6.0s. My naivity allowed me to believe this might happen! Inter20s were being sailed occasionally locally but were expensive and the class also was too intimidating to me. The best of the best were sailing those boats and I felt that was going to be way over my head. The 6.0, and the folks sailing them, appeared to be more of a 'ground level' choice in my opinion at the time and there were classes of 6.0s at the big distance events. So I found a killer deal and bought a 6.0NA and sold the 5.2. I later got pretty frustrated with the 6.0 because my focus was shifting more and more toward course racing. I was still competitive in the distance racing but really struggling around the course but sailing in open class with nobody to really tune with. Nobody else bought 6.0s around me - a couple did buy I20s though .

Boat D) At this point I really wanted to get into a class where I can race OD locally because I felt that this is the only way that I was going to improve significantly (and I was right). David and I had sailed the Tybee 500 and learned volumes and that might have temporarily quenched my thirst for distance racing some too. I was considering what to move too next, I20 or F18. Our local racing scene was seeing 5 or so Tigers at each race. The local I20 racer (Nigel Pitt) was also sailing an F18 at the course races and the I20s with the Seacats in Columbia, SC were rarely traveling. Personally I didn't care for a few features on the Tiger and the whole NAHCA thing was iritating me politically so I was still leaning toward the I20. Then the Nacra F18 became available and I decided that was where I was going because it I liked all the features and the class was all around me. An unfortunate destructive incedent with the 6.0 presented an opportunity and I purchased a brand new F18. I've been tickled to death with the purchase ever since and have learned a ton.
After finally realising several bad tuning habits by comparing with other boats, I've pleasantly found that we've been very competitive on the local scene. On the other hand, I still feel like I'm missing a distance racing component with the F18. My ideal scenario would be to own both an I20 and an F18 but that's not possible at the moment.

Steve,

After reading your post I believe we are more alike than we are different.

I'd also like to make one thing very clear, we (Southeast US) always share the course with all beach cats that show up with the exception of a National or Hobie only events.

More often than not if there are 5 or more boats of the same type they are scored and trophied as a fleet, and I fully support and encourge this, more hardware is almost always more fun. A fleet may not get their own start but they do get there own class. Most don't care if they have to share a start with another fleet/open. Yes some folks do whine about sharing the course with other fleets, but I believe those folks would complain about sharing the course with the back of their own fleet.

As far as I'm concerned Open and OD/Formula do live together nicely. Yes, I'm very passionate about racing OD/Formula and will remain that way for as long as I continue racing.

As a side note for those that say OD/Formula racing is damaging cat sailing in general... well that is just rubish, and many have explained why in this thread.

One more point: I own an F18, and I didn't buy it because I think it's the greatest thing since sliced bread, I bought because it is popular and offers straight up racing. So yes, I'm one of those that is more interested in the racing itself than the platform I'm on. Yep, I like racing on leaners too.

Dave

I would say; break open the distance racing scene with the F18's.

You and your F18 buddies must be able to do that. And when you succeed you may end up attracting top sailors from Europe to the TYBEE , Atlantic and other major distances race. These guys travel for their sport and builders/sponsors like to support top crews racing F18's because that is where the sales are. The sales are not in the I-20 on a large scale (meaning world wide) but they are in the F18 class. Also top sailors DO NOT cross train in to the I-20 or F20 classes they do in the F18 class.

As with all things, sometimes you need to be a real unpleasent person and push things through. That is how all changes get effectuated. How do you think F18 ever came to be, by playing nice for ever ? They broke open the cat sailing scene in Europe and pretty much destroyed strict OD racing in their path. Now the same OD zealots of old are all F18 zealots now. Seriously on the beach we now have alot less bickering. If you want to be something you race F18, that is where the action is. No contest between Nacra 5.5 or Hobie 18. The are dead. The only people sailing other types of boats are

The single handed guys ; scene here is trying to decide who becomes dominant and no A-cat is not fully dominant yet.
The really heavy guys : F20
The recreational group : the usual mix of all types of boats and the receivers of all good types of advice of the more experienced racers who ones sailed the same types.

Light weight sailor is a special group right now ; in the past they sailed H16's, Prindle 16's and Dart 18's. For long they had no serious alternative then the F18 class. This is going to be area that will show most growth over the next several years. Hopefully we can get a formula class going for these guys as well. With luck we can also link up with the solo sailors.

And I shall be very blunt about it; I'm going to do all in my power to make sure that F16 becomes the dominant class in both the light doublehanders and singlehanders scenes. I truly think we have a very good shot at it. Nacra and Hobie are only aiming for the A-cat wannabees, but that is only halve of the story. Besides A-cats are to expensive for most if the wannabees anyway. But I shall quit boring you guys here.

To Hobie and nacra officials, rest assured F16 class will continue to welcome the best 17 footers you can design to race first in wins. All in the idle hope that we can join forces in the way it was done in F18 and make this third area outside F18/F20 a major succes as well. It is plain to see that this convergence will be beneficial to both OD sailors are open class sailors as this tri-unity of formula classes will cater for 95 % of the individual wishes any sailor may have while garanteeing level racing in big fleets. Hell F16 can race F18 first in wins as well. If this doesn't beat handicap racing that what will ?

And yes ready to go designs are available for you guys. No need to do your own designing. AHPC, Phill Brander and Stealth marine will happily design a monster performer for you guys. All have indicated that to me in the past.

Am I being arrogant ? Maybe, but I have good reason to. A-cat is not going to do it for you guys. As Glenn Ashby says on that Sailing DVD. If you sail in the A-cat class you better be prepared to try new things continiously and tinker with your boat else you'll be left behind. It is a bad enviroment to offer a stable design (constant in time); simply because the class rules don't favour a stable design as much as Formula class rules do.

But then again as Sam Evans would say, what does a lone Dutch sailor without any major titles know !

Answer is : the market !


But in reply to your post Jake, break open the scene ! F18's can do distances races very; each year Round texel and other races proof this again and again.

Wouter

weezy,
Why do you keep saying "here" and "we" when you are talking about America and Americans?
You are not a member of US Sailing.
You are Dutch.
You live in Holland.
You rarely leave Holland to sail.

Don't you mean "What does a lone dutch sailor with an undergraduate degree in control engineering, who has never worked in the sailing industry, who bought his first catamaran, a leaky Prindle 16, eight years ago, without ANY catamaran titles whatsoever and has been to ONE American race know."

Speaking of f16.
You keep spreading that lie that f16s are for lighter crews than any other class.
The f16 sloop takes EXACTLY the same crew weight as the F18 and the f16 uni takes the same crew weight as the A Class, I-17, FX/1, or Hobie 17.
"do your own designing", what are you talking about?
We know that the very successful Taipan 4.9 was designed EIGHT YEARS before you ever set foot on a catamaran.

P.S.
You have got that "be a real unpleasant person" requirement taken care of.

OK..... play nice chaps

Sam Evans= The usual ranting xenophobic ugly guy very common currently in America.

Not so. Sam is one of a kind.