(I'm not sure I really want to start this) - while I agree that the radiused self tacking jib does not self regulate in the gusts, there are other advantages; One of them is that you don't have to mess with different size / stiffness battens or purchase in the sheeting arrangement in order to get the traveler car to stay where you want it. Because of this you can change your jib position within seconds on the water to try different tunings, adjust to a changing breeze, or adjust to a different point of sail.

The self regulating aspect sounds inviting, but it also sounds like a lot of experimentation is required in order to get the setting and response to work properly - and then it's not widely tunable from the water. Perhaps I missed something or read too much into the explanation?

From the way Bill explained it to me, you adjust it using the jib sheet. The others are to just get it in the ball park. I can't wait to try it out.

Bill,
Going back to answer your original post, most folks seem to agree that Oxen blocks are not the way to go. Nothing more need be said.

The Ratchamatic IS the way to go. The problem you are having is having an easy way to cleat. So, the absolutely best answer is to use the Harken 2628 (a Ratchamatic, with cleat and becket.)
This gives a ratchet while sheeting and cleating. And the beauty is that when tacking or jibing, the sheet has no drag and will come across to the other side without fouling.
This system has kept many a bad tack from happening. I love the system.
We do carry the blocks on this site at http://store.catsailor.com/tek9.asp?pg=products&specific=jmmrdpdmp8

No need for self-tacking and all the hassles you will encounter to set it up, not to mention the less sail area.
The reason the pre-Nacra6.0NA was not popular was because of the self-tacking jib -- not nearly the power, balance or control of the NA.

Good luck,
Rick

Since there really is no 6.0 class anywhere near us here in CA to speak of, that boat really went for speed, one poin ton the sail cut being modified, if the mast were not raked so far back this would not have to happen, the mast rake on the boat really is eye catching, but interestingly enough, the thing points upwind like no other. Umm, yeah, so its a rough sailplan, ehhh. hehehehehhehhe

Thanks everyone for your comments, although I think I’m leaning away from the self-tacking jib.

Rick – How well would the Ratchamatic work if it wasn’t attached to a firm base – or would you recommend that I install them on the chainplates and eliminate the wires across the tramp?

Bill

Jake,
I guess I told you too much. I explained how the system works and mechanically what effects what relative to sail trim. I did not say or mean to infer that the boat owner has to go through these same experiments to get the straight track self tacking jib system right. The SC and ARC boats with self tacking jib come "correctly tuned" from the factory. These things were worked out prior to 1992 when they became upgrades with spinnakers available on all SC and ARC products.
Some day the self tacking jib system will be common on all multihulls of all sizes, cruiseing and racing and on monohulls also. The system works too good and is too simple to operate to pass up.
I have noticed that boat owners on some Tormados and I20s with curved tracks have added the center pull control line with cleat to set the car postion off boat centerline. To change this line from the trapeze means the crew has to come in off the wire, make the change and get back out on the wire. The automatic self trimming characteristic of the straight track was not recognized by some boat manufacturers.
Bill

Bill: I still have not seen even one Tornado with a straight track here in europe (there might be some of course).

It sounds to me like there is a certain amount of 'unknowns' in the straight track system. How stiff does the lower batten need to be, and will the jib 'auto-trim' to the proper shape and position ( I assumed that the leech would tighten and the sail overtrim in the gusts)? Will the lower batten be flexible enough to give a good shape over the wind-range?

With the curved track, you know where the jib is, what shape it has, and what you need to do to correct it.

I would very much like to hear more about the system!

Plain and simple BS !

Selftacking fore sails have been on boats as long ago as several hundred years. Only after the introduction of the dominant mono hull rating rule that favour large overlapping foresail did the builders move away from selftackign systems. I have personally sailed on a 1887 pleasure yacht that had a selftacking rail and jib as good as identical in nature as modern systems. That is not an really old sail boat by Dutch standards. With the correction of the mono hull rating rule where the actuall area of the foresail is talking into account do we see the return of boom jibs and selftacking foresails.

In multihull land ; Yardstick initially favoured overlapping jibs as they are marginally faster because alot more sail area goes into the jib and this area is put to use on reaches and broad reaches. Now that the newer designs are much more dominated by measurement systems that look at actual area's and formula class rules that limit area, they selftackers are returning to multihulls. This because the they are about equal on upwind as the slightly bigger overlapping jibs and on the broad reaches the spi takes care of the rest. Of course we don't do much reaching in races anymore. This all has alot more to do with things like rating systems and temporary cultures than discovery of new technology.

With respect to I-20 and Tornado having issues with their jib traveller line. This is just plain BS. They use this line to find the optimal trim for the car for the conditions and before the start and then leave it there between start and finish. It is never adjusted while racing except on SOME distance races where they fine-tune it for a very long reaching leg. This control line must be compared to the line than sets the luff tension of a jib. There is absolutely no need to trim is continiously, let alone from the trapeze. But more strikingly Bill system can certainly not do all this automatically. In fact in some case it does the very opposite of what you actually want. For this very reason straight jib travellers are disgarded by the serious racing crews. This has nothing to do with lack of recognizing auto trimming potential.

To make this all more clear I refer to the example of a nascar car suspension and that of a baha 1000 vehicel. Bill wants us to believe that he can design an identical (and unpowered) system auto adjusts itself to the different
conditions found between the track and the dirt road. One size suits all, right ?

Yeah !

Try and implement a straight rail track, it'll work well enough. But don't kid yourself that is better than what the truly professional guys are using.

Wouter

Hi Wouter,
I would never publish BS on this forum or any other forum. That is not what these forums are for. Also in my little narrow window of sailing knowledge and experience, there must be millions of details about sailboats and rig designs that I do not know about. I do not claim to be "all knowledgeable" like some people. I do know that when I put a spinnaker on my first RC27 in 1983, I saw immediately that some kind of an automatic jib jibing system would be of great benefit. Prior to this I used a wire bridle across the tramp with a double jib sheeting system.
The first thing I tried was to route the jib sheet to the jib tack and then back to the jib car and up to the jib clew. When the jib sheet was trimmed to set the jib leech and overall shape to the proper form, the jib car was immediately in front of the mast on boat centerline. Well, this obvisously won't work. One could always bend the jib track to the radius of the foot of the jib and add a second control line to the car but that wasn't good enough for me. I wanted it to be automatic, jib car position and sail shape controlled by one line. For this objective to work, the tension in the jib sheet had to be reduced to let the car/sail run off center with sail pressure without losing control of sail and leech shape. When the sheet tension was eased and the jib car began to run off center, the sail became too full for sailing to windward and the luff had backwind in it. The question became, "how do we have a high level of tension in the jib sheet for proper sail trim/shape and a low level of tension in the sheet at the same time to allow wind pressure push the jib car and sail off center for sailing to windward and reaching?" This objective was acheived by adding mechanical advantage between the jib car and jib clew. Pulley systems from 2:1 to 6:1 were tried. On the RC27 sail plan that I was working with at the time, I found that a 4:1 mechanical advantage pulley system did the trick. I could set the sail shape/leech tension that I had in the first place with only 1/4th the sheet tension in my hand or with only 1/4th the sheet tension in the sheet leg from the jib car to the jib tack. Now the wind pressure in the sail allowed the jib car to find an equilibrium point off center at the proper angle for sailing to windward with the same tension in the sheet that properly trimmed the sail. The trick was that the sheet tension was multiplied by 4 only between the car and jib clew. When the sheet was eased, the car moved out and the sail became fuller and if the sheet was tightened the car came in and the sail became flatter. I also learned that a batten connecting the jib luff to the clew corner of the jib made the car run slightly further outboard and it kept the jib from becoming too full as the sheet was eased for reaching. This batten acted something like a bendy boom. (And by the way Wouter, some Tornado sailors do let the jib car control line out for reaching. That is why the jib tracks are more than 18 inches long. The crew does have to come to the center of the tramp to uncleat and let out this control line. They also have to come back to the center of the tramp to tighten this car control line for sailing back to windward.)
I want to point out that ARC products have both straight jib tracks and curved jib tracks for various reasons. I happen to like the straight track system better myself on the 27 and 30.
Another comment for Wouter: Wouter, I have been going to international boat shows since about 1970. I have looked over hundreds of sailboats of all sizes and shapes. Most of these boats were "cruiseing boats". I have never seen one of these boats rigged with a self tacking jib system. Cruiseing boats do not give a hoot about racing/rating rules. These boats/rigs are designed to be "simple and easy to sail". Rules do not matter! I will make a prediction: Within the next 5 years you will begin seeing cruiseing boats rigged with self tacking jib systems like beach cats have today.
Bill
PS Wouter, there are self tacking jib systems pictured in Harken's catalogue. You will never see one of these arrangements on a boat because they do not work worth a hoot. The beach cat system, straight track, works very well and is very simple to work with one control line.

Hi Rolf,
The spark, the starter, for the self tacking jib system on beach cats in Europe came from an ARC22 that was sold in France in the early 1990s "with a curved track". This boat owner was visited by several top sailors and boat builders in Europe after they had heard about the system. They made pictures and asked many questions of the owner.
The main purpose of the jib bottom batten is to keep the sail from getting too full while reaching. It does not compromise the jib sail shape. It makes it better. It acts something like a bendy boom on the foot of the jib. It is about a 3 pound compression batten.
With the straight jib track the jib sail is sheeted tighter in puffs. It is only sheeted tighter in direct proportion to the increase in sail pressure. This holds a more constant sail shape than doing nothing.
Bill

Repeating something over and over again doesn't make it true, Bill, sorry.

Let me see on which parts of your post I would like to give a individual answer.



>>I would never publish BS on this forum or any other forum.


Humm,

"all boats not using shared lift have massive lee helm under spi " ?

"ARC 17 should get a rating of about 65,8 (but was raced by yourself of 71 I believe)" ?

"Supercats are the only ones fitted with a righting bar " ?

"Texel speed record set outside the texel are no records and so the SC20 record is still standing" ? (Note how the sc20 record was set in august when the texel race was held in June that year)


To name but four of you more frequent errornous statements



>>That is not what these forums are for.


We agree on that.


>>Also in my little narrow window of sailing knowledge and experience, there must be millions of details about sailboats and rig designs that I do not know about. I do not claim to be "all knowledgeable" like some people.


Yet you are always very sure that everything good was first featured on a supercat or ARC boat. Squaretop mains, selftacking jibs, Spinnakers and now you are also sure that the introduction of the selftacker to beachcats can be fully traced back to a single ARC22 that was send to France in the early 90's. How can you possibly know that and how can you be sure ? Where did the selftacker on the initial Nacra 6.0 come from, that was designed somewhere around 1989 wasn't it ?

For a guy that now claims to have a narrow windows of knowlegde you have rather big claims in the past. And still dis so in your fore last post (French arc22 started it all claim ?)


>> Curved track ...second line ... but that wasn't good enough for me. I wanted it to be automatic, jib car position and sail shape controlled by one line.


News flash, In my earlier post I already expressed that my curved track selftacker doesn't have this second line either and works fine as well. So please tell us all again that curved tracks needs a second control line to work.


>>When the sheet was eased, the car moved out and the sail became fuller


And the sheeting angle to the jib is dropping below it optimal angle and thus slacks the leech causing twist in the upper part of the jib. This is the very reason why curved tracks are used on F18's and Tornado's. Gives better control over the leech.


>>And by the way Wouter, some Tornado sailors do let the jib car control line out for reaching.

Like I already said in my earlier post; only on distance races with very long reaching legs, hardly a frequent occurence. In other situations they just slack of the jib sheet and go for it or sail high above the proper line and hoist their spis early and before they get to the mark. All very standard practice now, they all do it. Seriously you'll need to look at these modern Tornado of the truly serious crews. They are more and more replacing the adjustable systems by simple set and forget setups. They trim the boat for upwind and have the spi do the downwind work and broad reaching. They don't any more on reaches then they do on downwinders. Slack of the downhaul, release some mainsheet tension, rotate the mast further and forget about the rest. All these small stuff takes to much time to correctly set up again after rounding C-mark for the next upwind leg.


>>That is why the jib tracks are more than 18 inches long.


F18's and Tornado's sheet their jibs out way more than 9 inches of the mast. 9 inches backwinds the mast and suffocates the slot. My selftacking jib with only a 1.2 mtr foot (= short = 3 feet) is sheeted about 12-14 inches off the mast already (upwind). And now you want us all to believe that 1.4 to 1.6 mtr footed F18 and Tornado jib are sheeted at 9 inches to the mast ?

Bill, you are wrong again.


>>The crew does have to come to the center of the tramp to uncleat and let out this control line.

They would have to do that if they want to adjust it, however in bouy races they never do and only long reaches in distances races it is worth doing to get that last bit of extra speed from the jib.


>>I want to point out that ARC products have both straight jib tracks and curved jib tracks for various reasons. I happen to like the straight track system better myself on the 27 and 30.


That is a personal opinion and that is fine.

Please just don't say that all other designs are wrong for not thinking the same thing. Ohh I should say for not 'recognizing' the same thing as you.


>>Another comment for Wouter: Wouter, I have been going to international boat shows since about 1970. I have looked over hundreds of sailboats of all sizes and shapes. Most of these boats were "cruiseing boats". I have never seen one of these boats rigged with a self tacking jib system. Cruiseing boats do not give a hoot about racing/rating rules.


Wrong ! Cruiseing boats customers follow trends seen in the racing classes. When these racing classes went for large overlapping jibs and genua's due to a loop hole in racing rules every cruise sailor wanted these rigs as well. Because the profi guys were sailing these and therefor they must be the best setup for speed, something even a casual cruiser pilot has a sweet spot for. Of course these overlapping foresail can not be fitted with a selftacker.

Besides your whole point is awkward. If selftackers are so much easier on cruisers and cruiser designers and customer don't give a damn about what racers do then why didn't boomed jibs, large battened mainsails with small jibs, and selftackers get into this market alot sooner. We all know what a pain in the neck these large genua's can be, and flapping mainsails not to mention tacking a mono with an overlapping jib. Over for that matter Gaff rigs and lug/Junk rigs ? Besides, boomed jibs and selftackers were rather common on (working) sail boat designs of the 19th century and early 20th century.



>>Within the next 5 years you will begin seeing cruiseing boats rigged with self tacking jib systems like beach cats have today.


Go back some 100 years and you'll see the same thing. Afterall what is a boomed jib ? All the Schooners had one.


>>The beach cat system, straight track, works very well and is very simple to work with one control line.

-1- The beach cat system (as most found on these) is the curved track setup; only ARC have the straight rail system and only a handfull of these exist in the world.

-2- I agree it can be made to work, especially on mono where the width to the foot of the sail is alot smaller than on a catamaran.

-3- On cruising monohulls I don't see a need to expensive hardware to have a selftacker. Just get a non-overlapping jib (maybe boomed) and two sheet points off to the side and in front of the mast. When taking uncleat the jib, let it swing over and tighten the sheet on the other side.


However I expect you are right with regard to the mono's just because the customers want to have these systems now that the racers are using them more and more.


Wouter

Play nice Wouter, I'll send you to your room without any supper.

Now you guys go on and try to get along.

I think self-tacking jibs are fairly common on cruising boats, aren't they? We had an Irwin 37 that was built in the early 1970's, and it had a club-footed, self-tacking jib. I believe it was called a stays'l. It was hanked onto the babystay. The forestay was used for the genoa.

The self-tacking jib makes life easier for short-handed cruising. Our boat was ketch-rigged, so if you were sailing with the main, self-tacking jib and mizzen, all three sails were self-tacking.

So when the Nacra 6.0 came out originally with a self-tacking jib, I thought of it as an old monohull system that was being adapted to catamarans.

Bill: Thanks for the input.
We have a curved jib-track on our Tornado, but it is bent to the wrong shape (not enough curve). As a consequense, the jib-car tends to move towards the center when the gusts lets up. We need to be aware of this, and sheet out the jib, or else the jib chokes the main quite badly. Perhaps we will add a fourth batten to an old jib and se what happens (always fun to try something new, and learn something in the progress).

Regarding automatic trim response. Automatic depowering and a rig that responds to changes in windspeed is great if it is easy to manage. Just consider our flexible masts with pre-bend and square top sails (altough the new Tornado mast is rumored to be very stiff, not very responsive to downhaul and yet beeing very fast, exciting times).

I had the opportunity to look at Darren Bundocks T in 2003. His jib-track setup was simplistic and very 'set and forget' It was a standard curved track, with one adjustable stopper at each end. Hi simply set the stopper where he wanted it (30cm from center in low winds and 40cm in high winds I think, at least that was where he had marked the track) and the jib-car moved between the stoppers. No adjustment made when racing..


I dont want to get into the other part this thread has turned into. Just want to add that here in Norway, several cruiser models are fitted with selftackers, both from factory and afterwards.

Let's not go dragging up old dirt...(and making rediculously long posts)

Bill,

I genuinly want to understand more about the physics behind the straight track...You said that that in order to achieve proper sail shape on the straight track that the traveler car had to be centered on the beam (which will obviously not work) - parden me if I misquote. Is that because the sheet goes from the center of the beam to the traveler to the clew of the sail? I can understand why, if this were the case, that adding additional purchase between the sail and the car would reduce the force pulling the sail toward the center of the boat. The sheeting force would have to be offset by the wind force pushing the sail outboard and by adding more purchase between the jib clew and the traveler, that meant the force on the single sheet running to the travler is less to achieve the same tension in the jib. The solution to this used by our current self tackers is to have the sheet go forward on the spin pole to a turning block located nearest the jib tack, then to the jib traveler, then to the clew of the sail (2:1 between the clew and the traveler). This way, no matter how much tension is applied to the sheet, it always remains inline with the traveler jib load and gives the traveler no incentive to move. Wait...Ahhhhh (I'm just figuring this out)....BUT on a straight track, even if the sheet force is generating from the clew of the sail, it will still tend to pull the car to center...now I see. (I'm really figuring this out as I go).

OK - for simplicty I personally rate the straight track highly. However, getting proper sail trim depends too much on getting a perfect sail cut, batten tenson, free flowing pulley system with no corrosion, etc....and if you simply wanted to try sheeting your jib in tighter to flatten it in higher winds your adjustment is highly restricted. I agree that the jib will, by design, have to be sheeted tighter to maintain the same geometry in higher wind but you are limited again by reaction of the jib material, cut, shape, etc to higher loads...which changes throughout the life of a sail. Ergo, your jib trim is dictated by the design of all the contributing compenents and not what the sailor desires. The pure racer in me says "curved track" and the pleasure racer in me says "straight track" - and this is probably why you offer both systems.

I admit I've been my charming self in an extreme way.

You catch more flies with honey than vinegar and that kind of stuff.

I submit to the judgement of the other readers and the appreciation of the truthfulness of my comments. It is wise to note that I can substantiate and proof all statements that I have made.

New posts are coming in with more example of the uniqueness of Bill statements.

You may dislike me for my charming character and yes I can fully understand that anybody would do that. I know myself, I'm not to best guy to have at a party. However this never changes a thing about the things say or have said.

I only care about the truth.

Also I think Bill get on just fine at any local bar over a pint. We'll have a heated discussion but what else is new between scientist / designers / academics ?

Most of us brainiacs live for this stuff, we don't mean anything by it. I'm not about to kill Bill or something I don't talk down his willingness to try new things in any way. That is quite interesting stuff actually, it just part ways when these very same thinking-out-of-the-things are all magically better than anything anybody else has done.

But I can give you good news as well. My illness is curing now and next week I'll be back to my usual daily routine and I won't post nearly as much then. I think my aching throat, general feeling of discomfort, running nose and boredom has sort of aggrivate my allready impressive skill for being unpleasant.

So light is at the end of the tunnel !

Regards,

Wouter

This maybe off on a slight tangent, and it may be a stupid question, but I am just curious: When you have a self-tacking jib, would it be more efficient if it was fully-battened?

I have heard that the theory, in terms of the Hobie 16 jib, for instance, is that being fully battened makes it as effective as a larger, overlapping jib would be. Is that true?

Why don't you use Bills trick of increasing the purchase between rail and clew ? That will work sufficiently enough to make the problem a lot less. Would be a rather effective quick fix

Wouter

Wouter,
This forum is not for what you are using it for. We have some communication problems. If we could talk face to face for a while in private, most of them could be solved.
For example: Shared lift--- The foot of a real "spinnaker" to me comes all the way back to the rear beam. This large sail has a low lift to drag ratio with the resulting thrust vector passing across the boat forward of the CB, trunk located at the shroud, with a large athwartship component which causes lee helm. The very short footed "gennakers" which are trimmed to the main beam have a much higher lift to drag ratio and the resultant thrust vector is more aligned to the direction of the boat and does not cause lee helm. So, the size and shape of the spinnaker or gennaker or whatever you want to call this large foresail determines whether or not the boat developes lee helm with its use.
ARC17 PN Rating---The 70 PN rating for the ARC17 was arrived at by Rick White using U S Sailing Rules. If you have a problem with that, write Darline Hobock. I write her frequently and disagree with some PN numbers and rules that determine these numbers.
Righting Bar---Supercats are rigged with a righting bar. This is not true. All SCs and ARCs are rigged with a shroud extension righting system.
Texel speed record--- I do not live in Holland. I only know about the speed record that I set in a real race on race day around the Isle of Texel. The details of setting a race record on a non race day with no competition and in a totally different environment from a real race, I know nothing about. This seems strange to me, maybe a little hollow or false. It sounds more like practice to me. In the Indy 500 or the Daytona 500 races lap records set in practice don't count. Records are only set in a real race. In Formula 1 racing can you set a record in practice?
My being so "sure about things" is your interpretation---I do know when ARC put the items into production that you listed. I have never seen A NACRA self tacking jib. Possibly this was on a few boats in California only. I can see that a self tacking jib with the tack up at the top of the forestay bridle and the clew down at the main beam would be a small sail with a short luff and not very high performance. The spinaker pole and the pelican stricker tube with a low jib tack, long luff jib, can turn this situation around even with a slight loss in jib area. I had a self tacking jib on my RC27 within a year of starting to use a spinnaker in 1983.
As far as the ARC22 that went to France in the early 1990s--- I only know what the owner told me about his many visitors interested in the technical points on his boat especially the self tacking jib.
Curved tracks for self tacking jibs---There can be straight tracks and slightly curved tracks and curved tracks to the radius of the foot of the jib used on self tacking jib systems. The straight tracks and the slightly curved tracks work the same. The jib sheet controls the sail shape and car position. The slightly curved track encourages the car to run out a little more quickly than the straight track and holds the sheeting angle more constant. The track bent to the radius of the foot of the jib requires the additional control line to set the position of the jib car along the traveller track. I've experimented with them all, Wouter, prior to 1992.
Wouter, I think this is enough of this spewing of hot air and challenge over things that are not important. I think you can see that we don't disagree over things as much as you make it out to be. To make these types of entries on the forum is a waste of everyones time.
Bill

Bill asked:Rick – How well would the Ratchamatic work if it wasn’t attached to a firm base – or would you recommend that I install them on the chainplates and eliminate the wires across the tramp?

Just like any other sheeting block, they do not have to be attached to a firm base. You do want to keep them straight and not roll over, etc. That is remedied in a couple of ways.
1)We used to bungee the cleat bail of the block forward or to the other block to stop them from turning over.
2)Use one of Harkens springy things that attaches below the block and between the block and the attachment point.

But, I am not sure what you are asking here, but you need to have the adjustability for your jib sheeting location. The 6.0 has really powerful sails and the jib leads need to be adjusted to various wind conditions.

Several of us got together and did some speed testing on the 6.0 when we first got our boats. We discovered that jib lead settings were highly important -- they needed to be adjusted to different wind conditions.

For example, in lighter air they performed better with the jib lead set in an a bit forward, although sheeting was very tender.
In heavier winds the leads went out and aft.., this allowed the slot to open more and thereby not backwind the mainsail.

I don't feel as if I am answering your question, however. Perhaps you might rephrase it.
Good luck,
Rick