It just recently dawned on me that there is no class association for the Formula 16 Class, either at the international level or at the country or continental levels.

25 percent of the Formula 16 boats in the world are in the United States, and yet we do not even have a class association to provide them with infrastructure and promote the class.

Does anybody know why a United States or North American Formula 16 Class Association has not been formed? I'm sure there must be a reason.

Nobody has bothered?

Mary,

You are pulling my (private) comments out of context here. The fact that we have chosen to have a different class framework than other classes doesn't mean that we don't have a class association at all.


To all,

Also I would like to request that we stop rocking the boat here. This is a very important time for us with regard to both the USA and Europe. And we will really do alot better by not continiously spawning controversies and misunderstandings.

I'll elaborate :

We have had a list misleading statements by now :

Examples
-1- No F16 class in the USA (30 boats and growing; several regatta wins over the last years)
-2- Only Jennifer sails actively (together with several others like Chuck, Seth, Hollis, Eric, Paul, etc who all won races)
-3- F16 rules bans a hooter headsail (the rules don't even know what a Hooter is so how can it ban it)
-4- There is no class association (We just have 120 boats world wide with (past) inaugural events in 5 continents, etc)
-5- Mid girth rule is only pushed by Texel system (And ISAF and is featured in ALL catamaran class rules as well as monohulls, this includes Tornado, F18 but also kiddies class Hobie Dragoon and H16 Youths and even volvo ocean boats use this rule)

To name but 5 misconceptions we had to adress in the last 2 weeks alone.

Now, I can fully understand that somebody likes some additional explaining here and there, but can we please do this by private e-mail ? I don't want potential members to get the wrong idea's. That for example our class rules are still unfixed (They are and have been since 2002) That the US sailors don't have a say in things (they did, always had, and voted with 75 % majority for the class rules in 2002, while these included the mid girth rule.) That we don't have a class association (we do and we have organised pure F16 events in USA, EU, Aus, Asia and Africa). Things like that.

Also there is no point in rehashing all the choices and compromises that were discussed fully during 2001 and 2002, after which the rules were fixed by the general and verified class vote (60 voters) in november 2002. And they were accepted by 80 % of the vote. Even the Aus and USA voters (halve the voters at the time) accepted the current rules with 75 % or higher ratios.

What I'm trying to say here is that we simply can't just change the identifier "gennaker" into "spinnaker" , nor can we just take out the mid-girth rule or other things that a few individuals don't like. I'm sorry to have to say this but now is too late for that. Besides the situation leading to these compromises is still present and any new vote on these issues will most certainly lead to a new rejection by the same ratio's. Anybody favouring these chances must realize that they lost the vote on these issues way back in 2002 and now we all should just accept the outcome. Otherwise the builders will put the thumb screws on to prevent any change in this direction as they really don't want any major last minutes changes like this. And I can't blame them. We can't have a class without builders. They will go along with us for a long way but we can overstretch their willingness.

Now there is only one issues that need resolving left. Mast tip weights.

And for additional explanations on the class rules and structure I would like to request with urgency to direct these to me by private e-mail (Wouterhijink(at)hotmail.com)

Lets stop creating more misunderstandings than I can put right. We are really hampering the F16 class growth with it and I really don't think that that is anybodies intention.

Thank you


Wouter

Question ?

What does a class association do that we (F16's) haven't done in the US (and other places) as well ?


Only possible answer

Ask for membership fees.

Apart from that we did everything. So lets please stop pretending that there is no class association.

And again, please stop ignorance from creating misconceptions like these, you are damaging the F16 class.

We are different that is true but we are just as much a class as any other


Wouter

Wouter, I asked you about whether a US Class Association was going to be formed and you said there are no plans to do so but that you leave those things up to the local class organizations.

And since the local organizations apparently consist of the F-16 owners, I am just asking the other F-16 owners in the United States why they (we) have not formed a class association yet.

I thought it was a logical question. And forming a United States or North American Class Association seems like a logical thing to do, so more people will get involved in promoting the class and getting more people to regattas.

Mary,

I know and I understand, but I refer to my private mail to you. We as a class are organised along a different framework. We use a cel structure. In this view it is not entirely logical to start a North American Class Association along conventional lines. It can be done, there is nothing that forbid or prevents it, but there is not really a need to do so. We don't ask for membership fees and we don't have appointed or elected officials apart from the local class heads. Anybody who invests the time and energy to grow and support the class can become what ever he or she wants; from grass root volunteer to full size official. Ones efforts and investments in time and completed volunteer work will determines ones role and influence. This is much better than appointing or electing people and hope that they will work out well.

So we are a "just do it" class.

We are a little different internally even though from a distance we do appear the same as any other more conventionally structured class.

Does it matter if we are structured differently when the end result to the sailors is the same ? Considering we don't ask for membership fees and have no need for these seems to suggest we've done something smart.

Wouter

What would be the benefit to start a class association? As long as the boats are rated the same P number, they will be racing as one design at every regatta. All I ever got from a class association (Nacra class) was a bill, then boat changes the class members did not get to vote on! There is a F16 web site however.

See subject line !

Wouter

I agree with what Wouter has said, I have noticed for the last couple of weeks an increased trend of "confusion" questions.

These type of questions hurt the class. Reasong being is becuase you may have a skeptic person, that is on the boarder of the fence. Next thing you know he or she reads these type of discussions, and can get scared away.

Some people get into specific classes, because they like the way the class is driven. Others, (like myself) get into a specific class becaues they just like the specific boats.

All in all, I think this is beating a dead horse. Lets just wowrry about promoting the class localy and internationally. With growth, it will just get better.

I guess I have to say "I told you so" again.

So "you can vote on all changes" huh?
Who decides when you can have a vote? woot.
Who decides who can vote? weezer.
Who decides what you can vote on? weezy.
Who collects the votes? wooty.
Who counts the votes and announces the results? weezle.
Just like China, Korea and other dictatorships.

Why can't individual countries be allowed to organize their own Class Associations just like all other Classes?
How can he, or anyone else, stop a grup of people from forming whatever type of organization/association they want to?
Why don't f16 owners have the same rights as other Class members?
Why are f16 owners being treated like they are incompetant to run their own Class Associations?
Because HIS ROYAL HIGHNESS WEEZLEY refuses to allow anyone else to have any authority whatsoever.

They started an f16 forum on the Australian catsailor.net website and weezer repeatedly told them to stop posting
there and to use this forum "for all future posts" because "This is the official F16 forum".
He was quite adamant about it
"I seriously propose to end this forum in favour of using the official one.
Will make us all happier.
You guys here will get answers to your questions and the other 95 % of the class may enjoy your posts.

And as the F16 class chairman I think I have some ground to request such a thing.

Pardon my directness here but I want to be clear.

Wouter

Chairman Formula 16 class"
Again, he he wants to crush any sign of self organization and self control.
At least the aussies told him where he could stick it.

How can one little dutch boy, who rarely travels to regattas, possibly help the rest of the world organize and promote Class events?
He can't even organize his own country.
The biggest catamaran regatta in the world is in his back yard and he refuses to attend because
"the ferry costs too much".

Now he wants to use private emails to hide any problems from potential members.
Despots and dictators have always relied upon secrecy to help maintain their grip on power.
Of course it takes co-conspirators to help create and maintain the secrecy.
You have remember that wootie is an avowed Socialist and proud of it.
We all know how Socialists run things.

It is ironic that he has criticized the IHCA policies so much and yet his behavior is worse.

At least he can't control me or what I say

First: please refer to: Godwins law

Second: Sam, the internet is so much nicer when everybody are polite, even if their opinions differ widely.

Third: We are discussing sailing and catamarans here, with focus on the F-16. If you want to discuss politics and socialism, I have some choise words for you. Ref: Norwegian politics/economy
It would be good for you to have more newssources/media-references than Fox channel and its derivatives.


Your "questions", which you have taken care to phrase insultingly, are somewhat answered in the class rules as far as I can see. I did not find anything about how the votes are counted tough. To avoid any future bad feelings, it might be a 'good thing' (in my opinion and experience from other organizations) to formalize this and separate the chairman function from vote handling and counting.


Wouter: If the F-16 class want to stay as 'open' as it have up til now, you must expect a little dust to rice from time to time. I very much prefer this way to run a class, where the officials are available and personally engaged on an internet forum. Beeing able to communicate with the top level of the class directly and in the public is something I think other classes should have implemented as well. The alternative is the closed structure from the 'pre-internet' era, where officials meet behind closed doors and the members dont hear most of the suggestions and discussions taking place. The last structure is the usual form, I think, and much easier on the officials..


Note: My experiences are not from the F-16 class and I dont own an F-16 (altough I would like to, and might very well do so in the future).

1 vote per boat owner for important votes (less important votes often allow more voters), all votes counted the same. Mine counts double when the votes hangs, as is typical for a chairman, but I much rather redefine the issue then and have another vote that is more able to get a convincing majority support. You know, just like Scandinavian countries run votes, the fair, balanced and open way; always seeking concensus over splitting the voters into winners and losers.




Finally somebody who sees what we do in the right light. Can we have more of these ?




You can say that again ! It is sh!t loads easier that way.

But for some reason a few individuals call that fair, free and democratic while calling an open structure "North Korea" in the small.

Rest assured that we will stay an open class, it is what I envisioned when starting out on this road in 2001 with the co-founders Kirt Simmons, Phill Brander and a little of John Pierce. It is the way we have done things ever since and we are not going to bail out on it in 2005 or in the years after that.

But can I please request that everybody sticks to the framework ! Otherwise we will go the way of the Hobie 17's.

Wouter

[quote] I did not find anything about how the votes are counted tough. [/quote] 1 vote per boat owner for important votes (less important votes often allow more voters), all votes counted the same. Mine counts double when the votes hangs, as is typical for a chairman, but I much rather to redefine the issue then and have another vote that is more able to get a convincing majority support. You know, just like Scandinavian countries run votes, the fair, balanced and open way; always seeking concensus over splitting the voters into winners and losers. [quote] Wouter: If the F-16 class want to stay as 'open' as it have up til now, you must expect a little dust to rice from time to time. I very much prefer this way to run a class, where the officials are available and personally engaged on an internet forum. Beeing able to communicate with the top level of the class directly and in the public is something I think other classes should have implemented as well. [/quote] Finally somebody who sees what we do in the right light. Can we have more of these ? [quote] The alternative is the closed structure from the 'pre-internet' era, where officials meet behind closed doors and the members dont hear most of the suggestions and discussions taking place. The last structure is the usual form, I think, and much easier on the officials.. [/quote] You can say that again ! It is sh!t loads easier that way. But for some reason a few individuals call that fair, free and democratic while calling an open structure "North Korea" in the small. Rest assured that we will stay an open class, it is what I envisioned when starting out on this road in 2001 with the co-founders Kirt Simmons, Phill Brander and a little of John Pierce. And we are not going to bail out on it in 2005. But can I please request that everybody sticks to the framework ! Otherwise we will go the way of the Hobie 17's. Wouter

he seems to have done more than you have.

Wouter: Just to make it clear, as I se how my suggestion can be misunderstood. I was wondering _who_ counted the votes, and in what way it was done, to make sure there was no tampering with the ballot.

It is very easy to make accusations about cheating if e.g. the chairman who has worked to see change in the rules also counts the votes. (And for the record, I am _not_ saying this is the case or has been the case in the F16 class).

Think about it, and consider it as an pre-emptive measure to avoid 'dust raising' in the future.

Rolf,

There is a reason why voted is done "in secret" , better refered to as "in anonimity". Simply because voters really don't want it to be known what they voted for. It is the same with all voted programs. If we are going to have votes we must trust the person doing the counting. If we bring in multiple verifiers than before we know it we end up with a rumour circuit of who voted in what way and we open ourselfs up to voter manipulations.

I'm the public figure running the voting proces and that is why I count them. It is my role as a chairman. It is not me who is proposing all the changes. I demand a written proposal by the party seeking a vote and then I guide it through to its conclusion.

You guys seem to misunderstand my guidence and handling of the vote in a procedural way as being the proposer and the beneficiary of the vote.

This is your misunderstanding; not a problem with the voting proces.

And here comes my Dean moment !

Bloody hell, have some faith ! Do I really have to explain everything in excrusiating detail.

End of my Dean moment

I know you understand and mean well Rolf ; the others do so too, but don't you guys think were are going a little over the top with this ? We are not running a small nation here or dealing with big budgets. Does anybody really think that I would waste 1000's of hours and some personal money just to scam the world on something as unexiting as a beach catamaran class ? I will get laughed off the swindlers guild. Such a thing will not earn me ANY big points in any way. Let alone money.

Without some faith we can just pack it in; because running this class will then be undoable and I sure as hell don't see many hands in the air to do all this extra volunteer work.

It is all good and fine to air suggestions, idea's and even complaints, but it is just more hot air if you are not pulling your weight in volunteer work.

This is all getting pretty close to being downright disrespectful, unngrateful even. You guys were practically GIVEN a class by a small group of volunteers who did all the work for nearly 4 years and running. And now we are getting somewhere doubt is cast on all things related to the class.

This maybe a good time to show some respect and show some faith that the volunteers who have build this gift have nothing but good, honest and dependable intentions.

I'm beginning to become really sick of all this.


Wouter

Wouter:
I don't think anyone is accusing you of vote manipulating. You are, however making one small error in giving any kind of a response at all to Troublemakers in this Forum who have no interest in the F-16 class nor any wish for anything at all here other than to stir up trouble. Idiots like that are best left ignored in totality. They will eventually crawl back under their rock and hibernate, then re-surface from time to time to try it again.
Too bad you're not a dictator that kind of inappropriate input could be censured.
I think you've put a great amount of work into working the class into what it is and can be.
You do have a different way of approaching things than we do in the USA, and I think Mary was just trying to figure out another piece of the puzzle. She has a much more vested in it than many, being a T 4.9 owner. We think of things more in terms of organizations than a website spinoff, it actually sounds like a logical minor extension of of what you already have done.
When you are in a developmental stage and in a public forum like this, you're gonna be in the spot light so better wear your chainmail underwear.
Maybe if you weeded out all the discussion crap and took the personalities out of it, you could squeeze the F16 knowledge out of this group and SIMPLIFY it and turn it into a FAQ guide for the Newbies.
Votes and matters of that sort should probably be redirected to the official website, to avoid any misinterpretation of the appropriate use of this little forum. Ought to set up a membership there, with Voting Class members only allowed in official rules affecting votes.
(You're doing a good job man, just lighten up a bit.)
Cary
Still a Nacraman.

Whow!
As a declared troublemaker, I think I'll go outside and spend some time digging a big hole in the snow instead..

Hi Wouter,

have been trying to ignore these threads. This time of year we Ozzies have better things to do like going sailing. I know others I have spoken to find these strange posts from septics or should that be sceptics, upsetting the F16 mood not worth worrying about, and prefer to not get involved. Doesn't mean we don't support the way the class has been run, just prefer not to add fuel to the fire.

I have seen them post on the general forum but don't recall anything positive from them on F16 forum, surely if we can't control who posts, we should just try to ignore them, what I have been doing. Their posts will dissapear of the front page quick enough if there are no replies and we keep up the positive posts about new boats and races. I wouldn't be to hard on Rolf I think he just came in at the wrong time, last straw?

Regards Gary.

Thanks Gary,

And yes Rolf was indeed the one that came in at the wrong time.

And I would like to thank all other for your support as well. Your messages (public and private) are heartwarming.

Okay lets get back to sailing

Wouter