Well Stated Jeff.
The big point is we can't show the world that the F-16 class exists without boats showing up at events.
Sorry about the LAWN ART post it was meant as a tongue in cheek Challenge to get the F-16's out and sail.
Just for Clarification, we have yet to get approval from the F-18 participants about this, but we do not expect any problems. We know all the F-18 fleet well, We anticipate they will take this as a challenge and opportunity for comparison of boat performance. We also assume this will either validate the F-16 claims of similar performance to the F-18 Class boats or invalidate them. We hope to set a precedent for future cooperation between the classes at local events, at least in terms of being able to share the same courses. There is no reason we have anticipated that the F-18 sailors would not agree, but we will respectfully honor their preferences.
Team SEACATS www.teamseacats.com will be sailing with almost all the TW F-18 Participants tommorrow, and should have an answer then.
Cary

Cary,

I understand we still have one hurdle to cross with approval of the fleet. Based on the notes from Les on the main forum, I'll remain optimistic that they will approve.

I hope that I am not going to be the yardstick for validating claims of relative speed between the F16s and the F18s for two reasons....

1) Although Amy and I have a lot of racing experience between us, none (well...one, we did TW last year) is in catamarans...so we're on the very steep part of the learning curve on getting the boat up to speed, tacking/gybing angles, etc.

2) The boat is not fully race prepared. It's been a play boat for me for the last 2 years. The sails are three years old and not of the latest shapes.

Our plan for this year is to race the cat more this year. Then at the end of the year, make the call whether to stick with F16 or get an F18. If we go with F16, new sails and a lot of winter prep are in store for the boat.

In any event, with the prospect of level racing in May, we'll be out practicing and trying to figure this cat thing out....just don't call us the F16 benchmark...if you want that, hire one of the Aussies!


PS....Cary...thanks for all the effort in getting the F18/F16 playing together in Columbia.

Cary,

Can you give me a location of lake Marray as in so and so much miles of Columba in that direction. I can't find the place in any map of South Carolina.

I think we really must know what travel distance we talk about when we start hunting the Florida sailors to come out.



Many thanks to the F18 sailors for seeing things that way. Besides as soon as we start blowing the doors of you guys you can always kick us out again !

But that won't happy too soon as some very good sailors are on F18's now and it will be quite a challenge to F16 sailors to just wack then on elapsed time.

With this in mind I want to react on the next statement :





All in good fun I'm sure but we mustn't put Jeff and Robi under so much pressure. Jeff admitted himself that he has some ways to go and Robi is to receive his Blade this weekend and than has to work out optimial trim and tuning as well as hone his and his crews skills before Tommy Whiteside ?

It is too much to ask of them to sail the boat to its full performance on such backgrounds.

Besides we have had several first-in-wins events already with F16's on top. Surely not everything hangs on Tommy Whiteside to "fix things for once and for all" ?

Otherwise we are better off hiring an Aussie team for the event. As Jeff said.

On the other hand if we can get Jennifer or Matt out to that event. (Please don't be offended Chuck and Seth)





That would be very nice. Let us all sharpen our teeth on eachother. I'm absolutely confident that in time all F16 sailors will proof their speed after being able to train a few times in such events.





And we will respect those.




Thanks for your efforts Cary. I just hope that South Carolina isn't too far away to get the Florida F16's to come out and play at 21 and 22 may.

Wouter

Follow this link...

http://maps.yahoo.com/maps_result?e...;country=us&new=1&name=&qty=

The club is near the intersection of highway 6 and 60...zoom out to see relationship to Columbia proper.

Here's one fly in the ointment on a combined F16/F18 class. If both fleets are small (less than 5 boats each) probably not a problem, but if either fleet has 10 boats of their own, do not be offended if they don't want you in their way at the start or mark roundings. Many is the time I have been "trapped" in a bad possition at the start, by a boat I was not racing against! Then there are the mark roundings, port/starborad crossings, etc...all of which can be fouled by having another boat, not in your class, in your way. If that boat is your direct competition, well, that's racing. But if that boat is from another class entirely and is costing you time or worse, it is not good to have them in your way.

The best case would be to have so many of both clases that each gets it's own start and the two never interfere with each other but that may be a way off yet.

Here's a thought...start the F18's then start the F16's one minute behind them. That should give the F18's time to clear the line but not so far ahead that the F16's can't catch up. In the end, you simply subtract 1 minute from the F16 finish times to see how comparable the speed is.

Tim,

You're exactly right. We are certainly asking for the F18 fleet to extend some niceness to us. They are certainly not obligated to do it.

However, I hope that they will enjoy the competition of an additional few boats on the start and at the marks.

Outside of at the start, I'm not sure that the issues that arise would be any different than having multiple fleets/starts on the same course. On the J/24 at Chicago NOOD, we were leading the race and regatta....we rounded the top mark with a back marker from the Melges fleet....they were inside us, took forever to get the chute up, then went reaching into oblivion. With the sym chute, we wanted to drop dead down....competitor rounded well behind us and went straight to the finish. Doh. Just changes the game I guess.

In any event, I hope the F18s will let us play with them at the smaller regattas. It's hard for me to get excited about handicap racing or racing against one or two other boats....but that's just me.

Jeff.

Sorry to inform you Sir, but that isnt happening. Tramp never arrived at Vector Works Inc, snuffer hoop is delayed, and a few other issues with rudder hardware.

Where are they getting their tramps from? It would be nice if it was Sunrise, right there in Florida.

WOUTER:
Distances Vary. We're 5 hours from Jax, 11 hours from Key Largo. Try searching on zipcode 29063 on mapquest, or follow the links off out website.
Check your spelling: Lake Murray, SC
It's just a fun race Wouter. The F-16 world won't end if they lose.
I'm sailing a new F-18, I KNOW I'll be at the back of the pack for awhile.
Bonding and camaradarie is the key. Getting them together is key to future opportunities to not have turf wars around the marks. The F-18 group is a buncha hardcore racers, also a bunch of serious guys who grew up through the ranks, and are serious about promoting 1-Design as it still exists. Nobody can beat Nigel Pitt, he could beat me on a Hobie 16 when I'm sailing Inter-20. Yet the idea is to promote Catracing. We are all for that. I don't think the Numbers of F-16's we may get are Threatening to the F-18 class. Some may see this as a bother, some may see it as an opportunity to share. We'll see how it all turns out. It's our event, but we asked the F-18's first, 3 of our Team Seacats sailors are F-18 owners, with a strong committment to the F-18 cause. However, we've all sailed other boats and understand the frustration of a growing class.
I'm pretty sure it will be as much fun and low pressure as any Catamaran race is or can be.
We'll take care of the negotiations and details, We don't need to dissect this on the Forum. We have a vested interest in this too, with a vision of the F-16 class as the next strong one-design class on the horizon, thanks to the efforts of Vectorworks and Matt.
Gone Sailing, it's blowing 15-40.
Can you say WooHoo!!!!
See ya Monday,
CARY

No worries Mate.
If I were the Yardstick for Catspeed, The world would not think Catamarans were nearly so fast. I lost a race last year on a Nacra 5.8 to a 80 pound 14 year old girl on a Raider! Of course she's the champion,and the wind was about two miles an hour. (Cats just just don't sail DDW.)

Jeff

A couple of points..

1) Yes... indeed you are setting the portmsouth number for your Taipan. Since you are the only Taipan on the course.. you will be compared to the top F18, Inter 20 and Hobie 16, etc and you will be part of the next year's number.

2) This assumes that the RC collects times.

3) Your complaint about other boats on the course and "that your race is screwed" is skewed towards monohulls where the differential speeds are quite slow making the problem last longer. BUT... What's the difference if you lap a hobie 16 on the course and have to pass him. That's racing.

4) If you want perfect racing conditions... then only go to regattas with one fleet on the course! Otherwise... slow down to win! The other boats are not invisible!

Mark

Of course,

If each fleet has 10 boats or more who cares it the fleets are mixed or not. I think we are all talking about a few local events without much riding on the end result. Naturally at bigger F18 events I would fully expect that they get their own start in the USA.

Of course I am European born and raised and we just mix our fleets completely 90 % of the time. My local club has a annual race weekend with over 100 boats attending. F18 class can easily be about 30 to 40 boats. F20 about 20 to 30. Do they get their own starts ? Hell no, we have two scoring fleets. "Fast ratings" and "slow ratings" and that is it. Any H16 crew only minding the 8 other H16's will get hammered in the final results by a prindle 15. And that is the way it should be in my opinion. If you are truly good than you'll correct out over F18's if you not than you won't. It doesn't matter if you are the first of 9 H16's when scoring a 40th place in a 50 boat fleet. You are still slow.

I truly think that US sailing will benefit alot from mixing fleets up more often. It will at least be fun to watch. Over here we have guy on a Prindle 15 that is just a ego killer. The instant you start to think you have some good skills he'll pull up next to you in a race and say hi. And believe me a Prindle 15 is a darn slow design; it such a boat snaps at your heels when you are sailing a Tiger of Inter 18 than you'll know that you have ways to go yet.

With all the miniscule boat fleets you have take away the fun of an upset or a surprise in catamaran racing.

Also any comments about getting jammed during the start or rounding is just an implicit admission that you entered the situation the wrong way. Sometimes I don't understand some sailors. You'll need to welcome getting any practice in starting on a crowded startline. How do you think national and world championships start-lines look like. Sure we'll all sail faster when the course if completely clear of "others" but what do we proof by that ? Sailor skill, racing skills ? Don't kid yourself.

A truly capable racer will find holes and correct passages through clogged mark roundings. Also because he had alot of practice at it.

If anybody has any dreams about an Alter cup event than they better start looking for contested start-lines and difficult mark roundings to practice on.

Sometimes I wonder why several clubs overhere get between 50 and 150 boats at their weekend events without any seperate starts.

Any I will shut my trap now. I'm a little hyperactive from something in my eveninh mail I guess.

But great of the F18 crews at Tommy Whiteside to extend their welcome. I think I speak for all of us F16's when I say that we appreciate that.

Wouter

I'm truly sorry to hear that. I know that you've been looking forward to that.

If it were only the snuffer hoop than I would just have picked up the boat anyway and have the snuffer system send after me but indeed things like trampoline are sort of essential.

Well, lets hope the missing parts arrive soon.

Wouter

Rest assured that we are trying to figure out the possible logistics, one of which would involve Rick having to drive a total of at least 45 hours in order to participate in that regatta.

And before you cast stones at me, let me ask whether any of you guys has a wife or girlfriend who would be willing to drive 26 hours, all alone, over mountains and through tunnels, through rain and fog, trailering three boats (two double-stacked and the third disassembled) on a small, old trailer with very narrow wheelbase? Just so her husband can attend a regatta? Anybody have a spouse like that? I really want to know.

Mary, do you have a sister?? I have all I can do to get my wife to help step the mast!

Hey, I didn't say that I was going to do all that. I'm just trying to find somebody else to do it for me.

Mark,

Sorry if my post was confusing...you and are on the same page.

Jeff.

Mary,

Now that the facts about the logistics required are coming to light, I'm starting to feel like an butt. From Rick's first post, I assumed that it would be a detour on your way back to Florida from the Atlantic 1000. You know what they say about assuming!

Jeff.

Bottom line is we hope Rick will be able to find a way to come.
Even our two committed F-16's sailing with the F-18's would be a great start, Having Rick here as a third would be fantastic for the Class (& my fleet's event), and quite frankly, all us lake sailors are on the edge of our seats hoping to see Rick (who taught so many of us the finer points of catsailing) in action on the racecourse promoting the growing F-16 class.
What we really need in this class is for the boats to be visible at the regattas. For you who got into the class early, that means being the flagships for your class, I'm only interested in the F-16 because I saw it in action. Were it not for Matt, it would jsut be another pretty boat on a webpage. I bet we can grow a whole fleet in the SouthEast, maybe even take away some of the Lighter F-18 crews and F-18 wannabes as they see the versatility and attractiveness of the platform.
AS to Jeff's anxiety about setting the Standard, we all do that until we get the portsmouth numbers on a new class finalized, it's not just the world's best that get to do that, it's ALL of us.
CARY

Cary,

Just to be clear...my anxiety isn't around having my results be used as input for updating Portsmouth numbers...it's about trying to answer the whole F16 vs. F18 bit.

There have been claims that the F16 boat is as fast as the F18 boat. That may or may not be true. However, Jeff Woodard on an F16 vs. Nigel Pitt (and several others) on F18s is not going to get you any closer to answering that question.

Tongue in cheek ---> Unless, I happen to win the thing...then you could be comfortable that the F16 is truly a giant killer...b/c it surely won't be the sailor!