I'm not sure how much the A-Class cats have "evolved" over the past 40 years. Yes, they are lighter now, and they have taken advantage of all the new materials and rigging, just as most boats have. Different hull designs become popular at different times. But aside from that, they are pretty much the same boat as back in the 1960's. And I think that is the best thing about the class.

If people want to experiment with new concepts, maybe the Formula 14 class would be the place to do that, because it seems to be pretty wide open.

P.S. In response to Wouter, I don't think the A-Class sailors care whether they are the fastest boat on the water, because they usually race in class, just like one-designs.

A modern A-cat is nowhere near comparable to those of the late 60's.

That is why for example the USPN system has a class 2 A-cat rating, that is for those oldies that still weight above 100 kg.

And that is just one example. How about the time they still had 8.3 mtr alu masts ? about 9.15 and carbon now.

Wouter

That's exactly what I said. They have only changed in terms of boat weight and materials and rigging used and hull design. You can polish up an old A-Cat and put new rigging and sails on it, and you will not be able to tell the difference unless you try to pick it up. That's why at A-Class regattas, if there are enough older, heavier boats, they have a separate division for the heavier boats.

And, who knows, if a Unicorn design were built at today's minimum weight, maybe it would be as fast or faster than the existing designs. Has anybody ever tried that?

It is nice to have a class where it is at least possible to think such a thing is possible. If the class allows hydrofoils, it starts becoming a whole new animal.

The A-class has been evolving slowly during 30 years of development. If you are racing at top level with a boat you seldom have a boat that is older than five years, and a five year old A-cat is quite ok to race with. But the ban against foils was made because we thought that this would give a big jump in performance and make the whole fleet obsolete!

If you check all the changes Wouter was talking about none of them gave this jump in performance that foils may give.

Carbon masts. They gave more speed after a while. Compare with the Tornado, the carbon mast Tornado is not superior in boat speed yet.

Glued beams will NOT give you more boat speed, but it will reduce the cost (1000 euros) and weight of the boat (4 kg). But if you are on minimum weight with bolted beams you can either add weights or more material to the boat to get it back to minimum weight.

Wave piercer hull shape. This may be faster is some conditions but traditional designs can still win. The german Nationals last year was won with a none wave piercer design. At the Eurpoeans in Travemuende we had four none wave piercer in the top ten after a few races.

The sail shape is changing every year. No bigger changes so you can still be racing with older designs.

Mast height was up at 10 meters several years ago but then they discovered that a shorter mast was better so now we are down at 9-9.5 meters again.

Tilted rigs has been tested but they showed no big improvement in speed.

Speed comparision with F18: Yes I know what I'm talking about since we have 20 F18 in Sweden right now and I have raced against them in several races (upwind-downwind races in flat water conditions). But as other people stated here the speed compared to other catamarans is not the main reason to start to sail A-cat.

/hakan

A class was developed along with B,C and D as development classes where only lenght, width and sail area restrictions were given.... outside that you could do what you liked.

From the B class came the Tornado OD, and for many years B class continued as a development class seperate from the T.

From what I have been told, the Moth class decided to go in two different directions years ago an the class split into the OD Europe dinghy and the development Moth.

Maybe if the A class wishes to further restrict the class rules they should consider moving to a OD multi manufacture class or formula class and allow the A class to continue on as a development class.

I just think before the class outright bans the use of foils, maybe a technical committe should be set up as the Tornado class did, experiment and report it's findings back to the class.

If the A class did decide down the track to adopt foils it will loose some of it's members but would gain many more from other classes as the Tornado and Moth classes did.

Just my opinion.

Mr. Medwell,

You make a great arguement for foil development. The Tornado SHOULD change its rules to allow the foiling Tornado! Let the A Class keep the rules as stated and address the "lifting" A Class boats with violation of the intent of the rules, and ban them for that reason.

I would support the addition of a rule that says "In case of doubt, the intention of the rules makers, which is the spirit, shall take precedence over the letter of the rule."

Just my opinion...

Mary,

Last years' North Americans had 14 of the 28 boats being sailed by people over 50, and 4 of those were 60 or older. I think you are approaching the right age to become a competitor in A Class!

For the record, I sail an A-Class or will when it quits raining

Any sailing class should do what the members want and other than idle discussion it is nobody else's concern.

The Moth's are cited recently as cutting edge but they have banned things that were not in keeping with where the members thought the class should go. The Moth class banned Tunnelhulls and as a consequence all multihulls. That is their business.

The A-Class is struggling with hydrofoils. It is not proven that hydrofoils are a good idea for a varity of water conditions. From my limited experience with them, I don't know.

As Mary said, if you want to try hydrofoils look at Formula 14. On mine I will cant the boards more this year and look at banana boards. Anything that raises the bow is by definition, good. on my boat.

In general, don't complain to loudly about what a class should do, unless you have your money invested in it.

>If the class allows hydrofoils, it starts becoming a whole new animal.<

Mary, perhaps this is what you had in mind? LOL.

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~fsinc/yachts/trampo/

http://www.trampofoil.info/

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/roberthodgen/tramp.htm

Mate, don't be silly.... The Tornado is an OD whilst the original A class is a development class. People could do it with the Tornado as it fits in with the B class rules but it would be a B class.

What I am trying to say is before making rash descisions and just banning foils, look into it, try it and then make a decission. The Tornado class was against changes to its rig but when it was re introduce and accepted 4 years latter, sailors adapted, new sailors joined the class and now nearly every T sailor appreciates the change.

A lot of A sailors have mentioned and some have also used the words, they would like to see the A go more OD and they are worried about how developmental changes could reduce the class numbers and increase expense. Well I have news for you... the A class is a development class and if some of their members wish to experiment with foils which would have been allowed under the original rules why shouldn't they. If other sailors would like to see it go more OD then why not create the class. Call it the A Cat instead of the A class (the Moths did it by creating the Europe Dinghy). Also encourage the A class to race at the same event even if it is on a different course or different days (allow sailors to compete in both if a kit could be developed to attach to a regular boat.

Personaly I do not care at the moment... I am only throwing up options and trying to open some eyes to what could be possible. Also at the end of the day, my opinion means $hit as I am not a financial member of the association. And just for the record I am not currently a Tornado sailor. I sold the boat a few months ago and am looking at buying a new boat for next season(different class). I have also sailed A's in the past and could very well sail the in the future.

Finaly I am only throwing my opinion in for the purpose of a friendly open conversation. You may share my view or have a different view and if you express it, I will read it and respect you view.

Hi Guys,
Not an A-class sailor, but here`s what I see happening. I could be wrong here, but my understanding is that the ORIGINAL A-class rules were written with very few limitations, and were open such that boats like the Unicorn are no longer anywhere near the current spec.
Like all unlimited things, it gets out of hand financially, and if allowed to continue, would end up like the C-class where only 4 boats exist, and only go out for a sail every 27 years to defend a title that means nothing. A great concept, awesome boats, but nobody except the four campaigners really cares much for it. Even racing ? Hmmm.

So as a result new rules have been introduced over the years to control development and keep it reasonably affordable, boats are not outdated so quickly so they hold a reasonable resale value etc. This is all good stuff, but I think what Stephen Medwell and others are contesting is that this is NOT the original A-class and is NOT in the original spirit of the founders and the ruleset they created. Perhaps they never envisaged canted boards, curved boards or even hydrofoils, and so they never wrote a prohibition of these into the rules. The fact that the rules don`t say anything about them allows some idiot/genius to experiment with them within the class.

Writing new rules into the class and having them voted on by the membership is a great way to protect the interests of the CURRENT members and is a great idea to maintain stability in the class, however as Steve Medwell points out, A-class has moved towards the setup of a formula class rather than a pure development class.

In my opinion this is a GOOD thing. Where are the B, C and D classes today ? If A-class is allowed to continue down a path of pure development it will be restricted to those with very large bank balances, who we all know would rather be sailing something a little bigger.

Just another opinion.
Steve

I don't know that there were any founders, per se, of the A-Class. Back in the late 1950's, when catamarans were first making an appearance on the racing scene, and when there were many different sizes and varieties, the International Yacht Racing Union created the A Class, B Class, C Class and D Class as rough divisions in which these various catamarans could race (just basic stuff like maximum length, width, and sail area). I'm sure IYRU probably got input from the existing cat sailors before delineating the four Classes.

As far as I know, the A Class rules still maintain the original intent of encompassing all boats that fit the maximum length, width, and sail area and the minimum weight requirement. For instance, the Hobie Wave is an A-Class cat.

So, I don't think the original idea was for the four IYRU classes to be considered "development" classes; just to have divisions that would cover all the types of catamarans.

I am told that the B Class, C Class and D Class are no longer ISAF International Classes. The A Class is the only one that has survived, because it is the only one of the original IYRU classes that has actually organized itself. Its rules and any changes to its rules have to be approved by ISAF, as with any International Class. So even if the class itself voted to include hydrofoils, that does not mean it would be approved by ISAF -- and any rule change can take years to get approval.

The "evolution" and "development" that has occurred in the A Class was due to the challenge of figuring out how to get maximum speed out of an 18-foot boat that has only 150 square feet of sail area.

Please correct me if I am wrong about any or all of this.

I wonder, why must changes in the rules for these international classes be approved by ISAF? Anybody who knows the history and rationale behind this arrangment?

I don't know the rationale except maybe that when a class is approved for International Status, it is approved with the class rules as they exist at the time of approval. Therefore, to maintain International Status, ISAF has to approve any changes in the class rules.

All the pertinent regulations are here: http://www.sailing.org/regulations/2005_partV.PDF

Your right about the basis for the formulation of the "A" "B" and "C" classes of cats Mary, But people forget that when they (the defineing dimensions) were originally set down, ALL those "classes" were defined within their appropriate "box rules", which was composed of only the barest minimun dimensions that would create separation from each other and try to stop various "in-between" sizes of cats from "muddying the waters" very much in the same way that the F18, F16, and F14's are defined today (but more simple). It has only been later as the relative classes became more formallised that more and more ridgid rule perimeters have been applied. and when the Tornado was "chosen" by the IYRU as THEIR Olympic class representative, it virtually stopped any further development of the "B" class of cats.
With the wind up of the IYRU and the passing of "ownership" of the control and "policing" of "International" classes to the ISAF, the ISAF have assumed that they are, literally the ultimate "owners" of the class rules of any class that becomes affiliated with the ISAF, and that they and only they have the final say as to the validity of any of the class rules of classes that allow themselves to come under the control of the ISAF (they - the classes - also have to pay the ISAF a very hefty "fee" for the privelige of being granted the title of "international" by the ISAF). So it is reasonable to say that all of those classes, the "A", "B", and "C", classes of cats all started life as "development" classes.
It was a little like the 18' skiffs in Australia that for many many years only had two rules, they had to be 18' long and the racing started at 2.30pm!, worked wonders for them for over fifty years!

Darryl,
You could be right. Of course, I am not old enough to have "forgotten" what happened in the late 1950's, but I think those ABCD Classes were formed so that catamarans in each Class, and in all the muddy waters in between, could race against each other boat for boat. I think at that time it was the only thing IYRU could figure out to do for catamaran people to make it possible for them to race against each other. (And I'm not sure IYRU had the word "development" in their vocabulary.)

But that was before a handicapping system was created. In the U.S. Richard Blanchard developed the Portsmouth system beginning in the early 1960's, and that kind of made the ABCD Class system unnecessary, because from then on all the boats raced against each other on the handicap system instead.

But for some reason boats continued to try to fit into the IYRU Class categories for many years. For instance, the Hobie 14 was designed to fit into the A Class; and the Hobie 16 was designed to fit into the B Class, as were other catamarans in the 1970's. Nobody seemed to care whether the boat was smaller than the box -- sail area was the determining factor as to which IYRU Class you were in. Of course, they were all one-design classes, so the IYRU Classes were irrelevant. I have no idea why it was thought to be necessary to fit within one of those classes.

For over 30 years the Tornado was the only optimized B Class catamaran (as far as I know), and they hung in there with their 235 square feet of sail area (same as a Hobie 16). Now that the Tornado has finally increased its sail area, is there any optimized B Class cat left?

The reason I love the A Class is because they have stayed true to the original parameters and worked within them. They have not given in to pressures to increase sail area, add spinnakers, add foils -- and I hope they don't do any of those things.

As far as I am concerned, the A-Class cats are classic. They have been around for more than 50 years. If I see an ancient Unicorn, I recognize it immediately as an A-Class. And I hope that 50 years in the future the Unicorn will still be recognizable as an A-Class. (I'm sorry, but I can't remember the names of the other A-Class cats that came MUCH earlier than the Unicorn.)

I often wonder what would have happened to the A Class if the Unicorn had been chosen for the Olympics instead of the Tornado. As I recall, they were the two primary contenders.

I love history, so if there is anybody who is actually old enough to remember the genesis of the A-Class, please chime in. Unfortunately, I don't think the Gougeons frequent this forum. (Sorry, Meade and Jan, I don't mean to imply that you are old. I know you were just kids back in the '50's.)

In Reg White & Bob Fisher's book "Catamaran Racing", there are chapters on the beginnings of the IYRU classes. Interestingly, Graham Stanton in New Zealand built a boat named Scat in the sixties that weighed 150# all up, so a 165# A cat isn't anything new.

Mary,

I understand and appreciate your love of the A-Class history.

I simply want a catamaran class to adopt foils because I can't think of anything cooler than seeing a fleet of cats flying TWO hulls to the A mark. To me, it makes sense for the A-class to be the one to adopt them but as many have astutely pointed out, not being a class member I really should keep my mouth shut. (I can't help it sometimes)

That and the mono guys are getting upitty about beating us cats around the cans with foils

Just some trivia - evidentally the first A cat in NZ, built for K. McIntyre:

http://a-class.org.nz/chronological.htm

Stanton registered a boat of his own just days later.

Mark.