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Spinnaker for 4.9 (or other F16) - Question #5117
01/07/02 08:23 PM
01/07/02 08:23 PM

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Anonymous OP
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I have read a few posts further on down about ways to manage a spinnaker. I plan on sailing one up and would like something safe and easy, but don't care for extra weight, windage, and blocked views (that's one reason I sail uni - no jib in the way of my view to the beautiful water).



If you place the retrieval bag mid-pole or under the tramp, would you even need a basket ala the "snuffer"? On the snuffer the bag is attached right below and the basket is used to guide the chute in.



Where and from what direction do you pull in (retreive) a chute when the bag is mid or under the tramp?



Sure would be cleaner just to have a pole and no "basket" sticking out front. Would I need to change out my sloop rigging (bridle and forestay) to a cat rigging to avoid any hang-ups with either of these configurations?



Any advice would be apprecaited. More than one opinion would be nice too. Don't be shy!!

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Re: Spinnaker for 4.9 (or other F16) - One answer- #5118
03/22/02 08:31 AM
03/22/02 08:31 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 344
Arkansas, USA
Kirt Offline
enthusiast
Kirt  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 344
Arkansas, USA
Mike-

Sorry never posted a response the first time.

Your "dilemma" is EXACTLY the same as mine, and I suspect all of us who wish to sail uni but fly a chute around a (short) race course (if you were distance racing you could just use a "bag" for sure- according to Wouter he has even been able to use a bag by himself on shorter courses but if I had other boats around I couldn't or wouldn't do this).

The Inter 17R's of course address this problem (and the BIM 16 did also) by using a "pole end" snuffer but the Inter's (sail plan) was designed around this and Skip just kept piling on the sail area to get the boat to go upwind regardless of the extra windage. Weight doesn't seem to be an issue for Performance-

For us though, weight is a big issue and we are limited to sail area so "extra" windage, weight and weight placement ARE issues-

I first tried a "pole end" snuffer but found it both hard to use (retrieval- launching was easy), and the extra windage took away my "advantage" to weather- I could only point as high as the Hobie Miracle's w/ it. Marstrom has addressed this problem on their M 18 w/ the "snail"- which mounts at the rear of the pole and "winds up" the spinnaker- I've heard it works relatively well, it's CF and from Marstrom so I'm sure it's relatively light but It's bulky, it gets in the way of a jib (neither the M 18 nor 20 have jibs), and you can only drop/raise from one side unless you use twin forestays.

Stealth has addressed the problem by using a "bag" integral within the tramp w/ just a fabric opening (from what I can tell) on the port side just behind the front beam. They tell me this works and with the Stealth large, round front beam there is a "space" there to take advantage of. The Taipan (with wingmast shaped front beam) and BIM (small round front beam) do not have this "space" so you wouldn't adapt so easily to. The disadvantages to this (IMO) are the need to drop/raise on starboard tack (although Stealth says you can do from either?) and it puts the "bag" close to the port hull which could cause some water drag (potentially- just my opinion and I have never actually seen the Stealth or their system but a "bag" under the tramp on a Taipan- or BIM for sure!- would not leave much "clearance" here when on starboard upwind with the port hull laden).

Guck Inc. (one of the dealers- run by Lars Guck, currently No. 1 ranked US tornado skipper) has addressed this problem on the Tornados with a snuffer hoop that attaches to the side of the pole (they call it the "skunk") that (on the Tornados) they place just forward of the bridle. It is very lightweight (mine weighs about 4 lbs dry w/ bag as I recall- the bag is actually half this weight!) and the weight is further back. There is still some windage, but it's reduced compared to the pole end snuffer (and compared to the "snail" IMO), you can launch/retrieve either side w/ your jib, it will accomadate a self tacking jib easily (all the Tornados are going w/ self tackers currently), and it has been "proven" on the Tornados.

You can actually "mount it" anywhere on the pole- from very front to very rear- so IF you wanted to use twin forestays (ala the M 18's and "A" cats) you could mount it at the rear of the pole and there would be almost NO extra windage and still drop/raise either side OR use the stock bridle setup and commit yourself to drop/raises on starboard only (it's made to fit on the port side of the pole). It's not "integral" to the pole so your pole stays "intact" and the only "loads" it has to take are those of the spi coming in and out (pretty low- the "classic" pole end snuffers have to take the loads of the pole).

I personally went with the "skunk" for now and am going to try it just forward of the bridle (ala the Tornados) so I can retain my "standard" bridle configuration and ability to go "sloop" and drop/raise either side-

Will be trying it out as SF and will let you know the results!



Kirt


Kirt Simmons Taipan #159, "A" cat US 48
Re: Spinnaker for 4.9 (or other F16) - Question #5119
03/22/02 12:54 PM
03/22/02 12:54 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,449
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phill Offline

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phill  Offline

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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,449
Mike,



I will also be in the hunt for th eperfect system when I finish my new boat.



Kirt has provided an excellent response and I'm probably not the only one watiing to hear how the skunk goes.



I personally like the operation of the Marstrom shooter

Very easy to rig and all the lines are taken care of.

As Kirt pointed out, it isn't reallyt an option for sloop rigged boats and I've also heard it does decrease the life of the kite quite a lot because it rolls it up so tightly.


I know that the voices in my head aint real,
but they have some pretty good ideas.
There is no such thing as a quick fix and I've never had free lunch!

Re: Spinnaker for 4.9 (or other F16) - Question #5120
04/02/02 11:53 AM
04/02/02 11:53 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe




Mike,



I just came back from the Spring Fever regatta where I had the change to sail the Taipan 4.9 in the 1-up mode with spi.



I loved it. The wind was light if not really light. You had to sit really still if you wanted to pick up speed. Kirt was right in his comment in some other post. He said that the Taipan in light air must be pointed into the right direction and left uninterrupted by crew movement. With this the boat will slowly accellerate and accellerate and accellerate and after some 30 to 60 seconds we were moving with about 2,5 mtr/sec = 8+ ft / sec. I estimated it by looking how long it took for a leave or something to travel halve a boat length. And I must stress that it really was light air. Downwind under genaker , much the same thing. Kirt was sailing behind me in the 2-up configuration and when their chute collapsed a few times we saw the difference in distance that a properly sailed chute brings to the boat in light air.



I have a genaker already but if I didn't I would go for one based on this test alone. I came warmly recommend a genny in the 1-up mode.



Personally I found manual launching and retrieving not difficult especially since had removed the jib and the moved the crew trapline out of the way (to the sidestay). My about 17 sq .mtr gennaker (I will remeasure soon) fly just nicely when sheeted of the jib loop found on your trampoline.



Anyhow, I share Kirts feelings about the Guck snuffer. It looks well, is according to Kirt causing alot less windage than his EO-snuffer and might well be preferrable in the stronger winds.



The flattened sock looks much more aerodynamic than the loose EO-snuffer system.



One point of caution though. The Guck snuffer appears to be more sensitive to the size and stiffness of the retrieval line reinforcement patches in the spi. Than the EO-snuffer than is.



Contact Kirt if you want to go into the direction of the Guck-snuffer. He will help you avoid this problem.



Wouter



Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Spinnaker for 4.9 (or other F16) - Question [Re: Wouter] #5121
04/03/02 07:54 PM
04/03/02 07:54 PM

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Anonymous OP
Unregistered
Anonymous OP
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Thanks for the reply. I have the $$, but am not quite ready. I'd like to get into a long conversation with Kirt too.



Sounds like the way to go.



Mike #213


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