[color:"blue"] [/color] Hi, tired of sailing others' cats, I am trying to find a suitable cat that I can sail both solo and with my wife (and my boys when they grow up!). One solution would be to have both an A-cat and an F18, but I am already having trouble finding beaching space, apart from the money. Besides, an F18 is probably too much for me given the weight (I am 94kg/210lb, my wife is 45kg/100lb) and that I am not that good a cat sailor.

I have sailed HC16 both double and solo, but it seems a bit (quite a lot actually) dated. The other cat I tried is Mattia S, an Italian 18-footer that is somewhat depowered vs F18, lighter, with lower mast and smaller sail area. I liked it, especially given that there are a few around where I am (lake Como), but would like to see if there are other choices (Mattia S is not widely popular outside Italy and is heavier and slower than F16, with alu mast and foils. Besides, as a mono class, it is now dated too, with the manufacturer having changed the model a year ago).

The problem is that F16 does not seem to be taking off in the same fashion as A-cat or F18 (not trying to start flames here). I don't have any numbers on sales/fleets/etc but I simply don't see any at all in Italy. This to me spells bad resale values.

So the main question is, are there alternatives besides F16/Mattia S. (Hobie FX-one with a spi?)

As a side note, if Hobie entered F16 in the same way as F18 with the Tiger, the whole class would benefit greatly, IMHO.

Earth BM,

It would help to know where you are based ?

Il Como del Lago è in Italia,

Is that right? He is in Italy. Get yourself a Spitfire and rock that lake!

I cant wait to go back to Italy, beautifull country.

Qui è un collegamento per voi
http://www.catamaran.ie/cats/spitfire.htm

That's right, lake Como, Italy. Actually, in Southern Germany (Munich) during the week but there is no dependable themal wind on any of the Bavarian lakes. Would mostly use it on the lake, so chop's not a problem.

This is going to be a real novice question... Is it at all possible to tack on a unirigged F18 - I never heard of F18s mentioned as single-handlers, but the power should be more manageable with just the mainsail, or am I way off? I am just trying to find the balance between 1-2 hand scalability and lasting use/resale value.

and yes, the Spitfire should probably be on the list, although it always seems to be mentioned as a boat for two.

Ok, I guess I can formulate the question properly now - is there anything that makes some boats more suitable for unirig (aka cat rig) sailing than others? When I sailed the 2 boats I mentioned (HC16 and Mattia S) both with a sloop rig, tacking was slow and I only had a chance to adjust the jib sheet once before I trapeezed out.

F16 can be sailed sloop(two up) or uni-rigged(one up). best of both worlds.

The F16 just like the F18 have daggerboards making tacking extremely easy.

The questions at hand are.
Do you plan on racing?
What other cats are sailed locally?
What is your budget?

I am sure others will chime in with other very important questions to help you choose which cat would be best suitable for you.

Yes, it's possible to tack a unirigged F18. But it sounds like where you would be sailing the lake has pretty light winds, if that's the case run it sloop and sail it solo. One of our club members does that quite frequently with no problem.

Dave

Although I don't know anything about the cat market in your vicinity, I would say that the FX-One you mention and also the Nacra I17R are boats that somewhat fit your goals. Both are sailed predominantly 1-up, but I'm pretty sure that both also have jib kits available to enable them to be sailed 2-up.

It is unquestionably true that F16 is in an early stage of development as a class (much earlier than A class and F18) and the lack of well established fleets and second hand markets in many areas will be an entirely understandable disincentive for some people. However I also think that the very questions you are thinking about reflect the growth opportunity for this class - as far as I know there simply isn't another lightweight, versatile (1,2-up), growing, multi-manufacturer, spinnaker-equipped class in that length range.

In this situation, the lack of readily available second boats actually seems to be keeping resale values quite firm. And I would say that many who are getting into the class, rather than being put off by the relatively small numbers that exist at present, are actually attracted by the possibility of contributing personally in a positive way to the development of a class that they perceive really fills a need in the catsailing world.

Mark.

I agree with Mark, I sailed a Fx-One rigged for 2 for several years. Sails very fine. Same situation for the I17.
IMHO the Fx-One is more suited for lake-like conditions
Nowadays I'm sailing a HC16, but I'm really waiting for a F16 boat. The Hobie Max probably is an option. Give da beast dagg's !!!!!

Try F18 HT. 140 kg, uni rigged with spi.

Bimare (Italy) makes one.

/hakan

Not really a single hander for the Lakes there, it blows most afternoons around 15-20kts !



Again I would not suggest a F18 single handed as you will have too mcuh power single handed !

If you really can have 2 boats then an F18 (cheap ones around that are fairly old if you don't plan to race) and then an A class too.

If you want to only have one boat, then it has to be a F16, An Inter 17 (Mine is for sale), but you would need to add a jib kit or an FX1 with jib kit.

[/quote]
An Inter 17 (Mine is for sale [/quote]

I was waiting for that Scooby

One has to try

It will sell one day and then I can start on the secret project

At a serious event, I would always race the Spitfire 2 up, but I have raced singlehanded in club races up to force 3 or 4. I use the main and spinnaker. In light winds, it is fun to sail singlehanded - plenty of power
The Shadow is light and fast, but definitely only a singlehander.

Dermot.

FX-one seems too heavy for what it is. Also, it is 5cm (2 inches) too wide to be trailered flat in Europe (2.5m limit), same as F18. One would think the class rules would think of things like that. Also, given that FX-one is a cat-rigged F18, a better deal seems to buy a second hand Tiger for EUR 6000 and sail without a jib - or is there a fundamental difference between an F18 and FX-one that makes only the latter sailable solo?

2 boats is not really an option for me. Very hard to find space around the Alpine lakes, since the mountains go straight into the water leaving little usable land along the shore. (The real reason is that my wife thinks it is over the top, given that she is not too hot on all this, which is why I need the solo option in the first place.)

Budget is not a problem, as long as it seems like a reasonable deal. Lots of second hand old shape Bimare A-cats around selling for EUR 2000, 80% down in price after 5 years.

F18HT has way too much sail for where I sail. Of the lakes around the Alps, it is ok for the Swiss/German lakes and lake Maggiore in Italy. On lake Como (my base) 4-5 bft in the afternoon is as dependable as clockwork, gets up to 6-7 (and I would still like to sail in 6-7). On lake Garda add 1-2 bft to that. All this rules out F18 for solo too.

This leads me to the questions on F16:
1. How robust is the structure given the 110kg weight? I once saw an A-cat hull punctured by the trapeze hook when the guy slipped overboard.
2. Stealth or Blade? (don't think Taipan is easily available in Europe).
3. What makes Spitfire heavier?
4. Has anyone used the Stealth slide up/down T-shape rudders?

I have a Stealth F16 - bought March of this year. I have given my views and reasons elsewhere on this forum, but essentially it was bought after almost two years of trying to decide what to buy.

I wanted a modern, fast cat. It had to be light so that it could be easily handled ashore (I'm feeling my age ). It had to be suitable for solo sailing in up to say Force 5. I wanted a spinnaker. I wanted to sail 2-up occasionally. I wanted to be able to right from a capsize on my own. I wanted to race competitively.

No such animal? Well, I think I got it all with the F16. I've been out solo (with a spin) in 22kts of wind and I only weigh 70Kg. Yes, I did capsize - just once - while I was on the tramp trying to pull the kite down, but in just a couple of minutes she was back up and I was in the race again.

I've been out 2-up in only 5 knots of wind and we both managed to get out on the wire once we'd got her 'powered up'. - This is one versatile beastie .

The Stealth has T-foil rudders, and although I was sceptical at first, I am now a total convert. Just have to remember that they won't flip up if you touch and therefore be a bit careful about shallows. In action you can really feel the help they give downwind and broadreaching to keep the bows up. We've genuinely not had one close call with bow burying at all!

As for strength of construction, I've got no concerns there. The boat appears to be very rigid and although we managed to run aground on one occasion (at speed)there was no damage to the hull, just the daggerboard. There is no reason why the F16 should be any more fragile than any other boat to trapeze hook damage.

IMHO for sheer flexibility of use and outright fun to sail the F16 is hard to beat. As a bonus it is almost as fast as an F18 and I've found that you can actually race them boat for boat - especially downwind. Try and get a trial sail on one, you won't be disappointed...

Ivan,

As you may know I'm deeply involved with the F16's as I'm the class chairman, but I do have the answers to several questions you asked.

First of all we (I) are begging for secondhand F16's ! You don't have to worry about resale value as demand for F16 secondhanders is truly very high. Actually there is no visible second-hand market for these boats as offers of boats that are put up for sale never make it to the general public, these boats are nearly always sold within the month to befriended sailors or fellow club members. I wish I had several second hand offers available as I have a list of sailors who want one but don't want or can't pay for a new one. Also the current owners are hanging on to their F16's (probably because they like to boat ), which aggrevates the problem. This is all a very serious issue for us. I hope to break this dead lock by bringing the Blade F16 over to Europe. But that is beside the topic.

Also I would not expect any alternative to the F16 to have better resale value. Only a few I-17's and FX-ones are raced an none have a more viable class than the F16's. The A-cats loose value really quickly for some reason, probably because of the very open nature of their class rules makes secondhand buyer itchy. What I'm trying to say here is that IF the F16's have bad resale values (which I know from experience isn't the case) then the same reasons won't allow any alternative to the F16's to be any better.





3 guesses what the F16 rules specify as the maximum beam ? Some classes did think of issues like that. Mind you Australia has a max road beam limit of 2.5 mtr as well.



It is 30 kg lighter than the F18 and it does have a smaller mainsail. I would advice that you try to test sail one and than you know what to expect of it. Make sure that you then drop in at my place (Zandvoort Netherlands) as well; to get a test sail on an optimized F16 as well. I garantee you that you will spot the difference.





Ask that same question of the FX-one and I-17. If you want the best of the best in terms of impact and damage resistance then either you should choose to get a ply/glass/epoxy F16 or you'll need to order a Kevlar/glass/vinylester Taipan F16 or Kevlar/glass/vinylester Blade F16.

No other class of boats offers these ply or kevlar options. Spitfire is said to use corematt and that it pretty dent and damage resistant as well. Things can be done with carbon as well but only Stealth F16 and A-cat builders offer such option.

I've personally (accidently) tested one big builder alternative and ... yep you guessed it. The fact that a boat weights 145 kg doesn't mean that it's hulls are more damage resistant. One alternative design features a 7 kg heavier rudder assembly alone. THAT won't help in any way to make your hulls more damage resistant.





Dependents on what you are looking for in a F16. Stealth is inexpensive and has a very good performance/price ratio. Taipan F16 is probably best when singlehanding. Blade F16 is just an extremely good looking boat and promises the best compromise between doublehanding and singlehanding for a very attractive price.

And somebody should knock AHPC over the head and tell them to put more effort in the EU market for F16's. It is like they try their best to not sell a boat. I will phone Greg Goodall as soon as he is back from the A-cat worlds.





Correcty me when I'm wrong but the Spitfire uses the coremat construction for their hulls. This will account for a large chunck of the difference in weight. They probably loose 3 kg on the mast section. If they lose an extra kg here and there as well then you'll end up at the listed Spitfire weight.





Yes, the effect is really noticeable. Yes, my opinion is that it is more work when launching and landing in a surf but if you sail on a lake without a surf (or not much surf) and in an area where the water depth increases quickly and is garanteed all over the Lake then the extra effort may be worth it.

I sail an F16 without T-foils and yes under spinnaker and on reaches the effect of not having these is very clear. The Stealth with these really has no dive tendency at all and converts all gusts to forward motion in stead of pressing the bows down. I'm really happy with me own F16 without T-foils but the effect they have can not be denied. When singlehanding they could be a welcome help in big winds.


Now some of my personal comments to finish this post. Dealors will say lots of things but in the end of the day, the thing that will give you enjoyment is the way a boat sails, behaves and feels. Unless you'll get at least 10 boats of the same make to attend events regulary then any one-design considerations are not worth anything. Example : One can buy One-Design class boat type X because it is One-design but if you have to sail open class anyway then you will meet up with guys like me on fully modernized and upgraded boats like F16's anyway. You'll be racing an OD boat in a NON-OD fleet. Why do it ? You'll only put yourself at a unfair disadvantage. Only the F18's and A-cats attract large fleets, all others are just small players, in this respect there is absolutely no difference between the F16's and the others.

If you want, you can make a test sail on my F16 (with me on it as well !). I have a Taipan based F16.

I am racing first in wins with F18's and F-20's; most alternatives named are slower then the F16, often for the same asking price or more. This is not a claim but a pure and simply fact. Several of us have been showing the speed potential of the F16's in relation to F18's and others.

F16's are not fragile; this is incredible nonsense. Taipans have been raced for 15 years now in a very competitive way in many times in heavy conditions (several Texel races as well). No major breakages have ever occured and several of us have run into sandbars and other obstructions. I personally forgot to lift my luff daggerboard in one of the first times out. I sailed it onto the beach with some 2 to 3 mtr/sec speed. The boat actually stood on its daggerboard when on dry land with me and crew still on the boat. I got NO damage and NO leaks. I can tell you of several such "stupid" actions on Stealths and Taipans as well. All ended with no serious damage. Mostly some gelcoat was scrapped off.

F16's are lightweight because other fittings like mast, rudders assembly, beams, trampoline, snuffer and daggerboards are alot lighter than their competitions. The hulls are lighter as well but not all weight savings come from the hulls. My daggerboards, rudders and rudderstocks (+tillers) weight in combined at only 7 kg's. A single daggerboard of the competition can weight in at 3.5 kg's alone. With respect to one big boat builder my rudder setup alone is 7 kg's lighter ! And my system has no play in it (= extra bonus).

My aluminium mast is 3 to 4 kg's lighter than nearly all other alu masts. Add to that some 3 kgs savings on the daggerboards and 1.5 kg on the snuffer, some 4 kg's on the beams and you'll go a long way to account for the difference in weight.

F16's hulls are typically between 25 and 27 kg's that is about 10 kg per hull heavier than the A-cats. So F16's hulls are not comparable to A-cat hulls. F16 hulls are seriously stronger.

There are alot of rumours about F16's, but not many are true. They sail through the surf just fine. They will take heavy winds and chop and race just fine. Mast won't bend or break easily under spinnaker. Etc.

One more thing. Many compare us directly to classes like the F18's and A-cats in terms of numbers, but this is just a skewed situation. A-cats have been around for over 30 years, F18 started in 1993 and its real growth is only of the last 7 years. Both classes had humble beginnings of their own. The F16 class should be seen in that light. There are about 350 competitive F16's in the world now. We have had class racing on 5 difference continents by now. That is more than any alternative design in the way of combined singlehanding/doublehanding can claim. Not the FX-one class, not the I-17 class, not the Spitfire class, not any of the modern single-doublehander classes can claim such numbers. Only the mosquito class can but mosquito F16's (= + spi) are part of the F16 class as well. It can be helpful to remember this when talking to other experts/dealors.


But having said all this. I wish you the best of enjoyment with what ever design you decide upon. Because there is no ultimate class; there is no "one-size fits all", the boat that suits your wishes the best will be the ultimate boat for you and that is all that matters really.

Wouter

It has not much to do with being uni-rig or not but some boat are indeed more suited to singlehanded sailing than others. Singlehanders are really helped by having all the control lines available from the trapeze. Also a good implementation of things like the downhaul are important. It must be easy to pull on it and it must produce alot of tension on the leech. Honestly, alot of downhaul systems are just noticeable inferior to what can be had. It is one of the things alot of builders save upon.

Also reraking your mast easily is a real plus when switching from cat rigged sailing to sloop sailing alot, although some boats do allow you to sail in both boats comfortably enough without reraking the mast.

Also a selftacker is really nice for when you decided to singlehand with a sloop setup. Generally low overall weight is a real enjoyment enhancing factor. Personally I have to pull my boat up a sandy incline to get to my parking and here I really do notice a 30 kg weight difference, let alone more. (I owned a 135 kg boat for several years and so REALLY do know about the difference first hand)

Apart from that you can sail as good as any boat singlehanded if you reraked your mast. Hell Ellen MacArthur just singlehanded a 60 ft tri around the world. Any boat can be modified to help signlehand it.

Ohh one more thing do. Continiously sheeting in and out a large sail is tiring.

For good tacking get a daggerboard fitted catamaran or learn to do the roll-tack combined with careful sheeting of the mainsail.

Let me see. A feel that a flexible mast helps in converting from behaved doublehanded sailing to behaved singlehanded. sailing as well. It is hard to depower a rig with a stiff mast for singlehanded sailing while it is relatively easy to power-up a flexible mast rig for doublehanded use. Mast rotation is a key control in this respect. So yes I would seriously consider makes with a rather flexible mast.

One other trick (hell my break is almost over) is to have two sets of upper battens (top 3) a medium set for doublehanded (powered sailing) and a stiff set to flatten and depower the top of the rig for solo sailing in the heavy stuff.

Wouter

One other factor that stops most double handers being good single handers is the ability to right the craft if it capsizes, mind you a few single handers can't sell you this option either. I think it is paramount that if you fall in the sea, you are not relying on someone else to save your bacon

Wouter,

You said "Dependents on what you are looking for in a F16. Stealth is inexpensive and has a very good performance/price ratio. Taipan F16 is probably best when singlehanding. Blade F16 is just an extremely good looking boat and promises the best compromise between doublehanding and singlehanding for a very attractive price".

When you said that Taipan F16 is probably best when singlehanding, did you mean that it's a better singlehanded boat than doublehanded boat or did you mean it's the best singlehanded boat among the three listed?

Thanks,

Jerry