I was talking to my wife (crew) last night about the "X" class controversy while we were discussing planning the regattas that we would be attending next year. I told her that I thought the ultimate goal of the Hobie Assoc. was to get as many people as possible sailing Hobies. What she then said made me write this post. What would happen if we all switched to sailing Hobies. Would the boats get faster? Would the prices go down? Would quality go up? Would we continue to get new technology? I suspect just the opposite would happen. Competition is good. It keeps prices down and quality up. We need to embrace new designs and ideas because everyone wins. So what would happen if we all sailed Hobies?

Monopolies are bad. If Hobie had no competition, what incentive would they have to improve?

BTW, where can I learn more about the "X" class controversy?

Monopolies are bad.

They stifle innovation, raise costs(Hobie parts?), and limit options.

Not only is it the most controversial of all subjects on all of our Forums, it will probably take up most of the text in the upcoming issue of the magazine.

The problem also caused the reincarnation of NAMSA -- see that Forum below.

Glad to see Sizzlers back in the fold. Is Ed Vlack still behind the design?

Should Sizzler want more exposure, ads on this site and the magazine are much less expensive than you will find elsewhere in the media world.

Sailed a regular Sizzler 16 at a regatta in Muskegon, MI with my now wife, Mary Wells, who at that time was working for Sizzler.

Rick

Also, note that even Hobie sailors benefit from competition. The Hobie Fox and Tiger would not be in the U.S. if Hobie had not been scared by the Inter 18 and Inter 20. In fact, even the popular H20 did not appear until after the Prindle 19 had been around for many years.



While Hobie's have done a lot to popularize cat sailing, it's bad for everyone if one company is able to control a market. Then they just sit back, doing as little as possible and milking the customers for all they're worth.



Alan Thompson

I20 - San Diego

It seems to me that the only people that have a problem with other boats are the people that DON'T own hobies. Every place I go the Hobie people go out of thier way to invite and welcome all catamarans. Sure, there is pressure to join fleets and race this boat or that, but that is not a Hobie-only concept. Everybody wants everyone else to sail the boat that they sail. It is not Hobie that makes Hobie racing successful, it is the people that run the local fleets and organize the regattas that make it thrive.

I agree that a world with only Hobies would not be the best thing, but a world without Hobies would be no better. What do you people want? Do you want Hobie to go out of buisness so good ol' Preformance can step up and run things like they should be run? What would the world be like if they had a monopoly? What if Performance went out of buisness too? That would open the door for Bill Roberts. He's a good guy. No way would he try to make a profit. He would just give away ARC's and Supercats just to make us happy. But wait, that wouldn't work either. Not everybody likes ARC's or Supercats. Some people like NACRA's, some like Inters and yes some people, including myself like Hobies.



P.S. I've owned and raced NACRA's and Prindles too!

One of the greatest things aboout sailing is the people who do it. I have always felt that sailors were unusually friendly and willing to help one another. I include hobie sailors in this group. In fact, I have never thought of hobie sailors as being any different from anyone else, they just sailed another brand of boat. I, and other "X" sailors, do not want Hobie to go out of business. Yes, we like to see more people sailing the particular boat that we sail because it can add to the competition and make racing more exciting, but we do not encourage an attitude, philosophy, or policy that discourages others from sailing the boat of their choice. I feel that we, as catamaran sailors, should work together for the good of everyone, not just the brand of boat that we sail. We all win when everyone gets involved. Just look at the success of the two biggest regattas in the US, Lake Hartwell and Cat Fight. If they were limited to one brand of boat, or made other boats feel unwelcomed, do you think they would be as successful? I do not.

Chris you contradict yourself. You say you are receptive to all but in your opening post (entitled: A world with only Hobies) you blame all the problems we face on one specific brand. As if to say Hobie is the root of all that is wrong with catamaran sailing. What problem do you have with Hobie specifically? What would it be like in world with only Performance?

A world with only Performance catamarans would be just as bad. In fact, I think that Performance and Hobie have become a little too dominate in the US. However, I have not heard about any other catamaran associations suggesting that other boats ("X" boats in this case) who attend their regattas be treated in a manner different then the sponsoring club. While Hobie has every right to do this, it's their party, I don't think that it is positive step in the right direction. My hope is that what we heard about "X" class sailing was just talk and we will continue as it has been in the past, but the idea that some people would have these feelings is disturbing. Do you think that Lake Hartwell and the Cat Fight would be so well attended if the organizers made it known that they were going to favor one type of boat over others, and that those other boats should supply their own scoring, etc...?

There seem to be endless variations of the argument that the one-class/many-class cat fleet is killing/growing the sport. I'm a new sailor, and I picked the highest quality and performance I could find when I chose my boat. It happens to not be a Hobie, but I've sailed 14 and 16s and think they are fine cats. My local fleet has 31 flavors, races frequently, and I'm not aware of any type partisanship or discrimination. Like my username says, when I get off work I'm just grateful to be able to sail. How can anyone get terribly worked up over such a blissful activity as sailing? How lucky we all are to simply fly faster than the wind over the water. However, I am delighted to find that sailors are so passionate about their opinions!

Welcome to cat sailing. I am glad that you are welcome in your fleet. That is the way I feel in our fleet too. I hope that it remains that way in the future.

I would like to weigh in on the Hobie only side. Like most sailors I know, I spent as much as I could to put the best boat I could afford onto the water. As I gained experience over the years, my talents outgrew my equipment. Since I took good care of that boat, I was able to sell it for a good percentage of what I paid and upgraded again to the best I could afford. A couple of years later, the newer high performance boats started hitting the scene. One design racing in my class is starting to suffer as those who might upgrade to my class (TheMightyHobie18) were pulled into the other classes. If it comes to the point that I have to purchase the latest and greatest class boat to come down the pike in order to race, the value in my boat will fall dramatically. Instead of taking the loss, I'll probly just go pleasure crusing.

You wrote



"my talents outgrew my equipment... "so I moved up... Hmm... Some of the most talented sailors in the world are racing lasers... they certainly do not feel limited by a very simple boat... Perhaps... you really just wanted more boat and got a good deal on your old one several years ago.



you wrote:

One design racing in my class is starting to suffer as those who might upgrade to my class (TheMightyHobie18) were pulled into the other classes.



Hmm... Upgrade to a Hobie 18.... You must be refering to the Hobie 16 sailors (few if any P16 sailors left) . I can't think of but a handful of sailors in Div 11 who moved from a hobie 16 to another two person boat... Hobie or otherwise... So... its not the faithless sixteen sailors causing your fleets demise.



I don't think you can blame the slow demise of the Hobie 18 one design on competition from non hobie high performance boats either. I know of only one former TheMightyHobie18 sailor in the Div 11 region now sailing in open.



The only other 2 person class boat in the region is the Hobie 20, which averages about 4 boats at a regatta. The 16 sailors who moved up several years ago went to a Hobie 20 and bypassed the Hobie 18.... You would have to blame Hobie Corp for that one. ... the latest high performance boat.. the Hobie Tiger is crushing the resale value of Hobie 20's .... Perhaps it will decimate your TheMightyHobie18 class as well. But... you can't blame that one on non hobie competition either.... Uh Oh.. as Pogo stated... "we has met the enemy and he is us!"



Perhaps, you haven't noticed the trend with respect to class racing.... Its not working like it used to.... The appeal of competing in a small one design class in your local region is outweighed by lots of other factors for most sailors. In fact... the biggest threat to your class is not another boat class... its distance racing. (no matter how you look at it... winning a distance race on a Hobie 16 in corrected time is not the same as getting to the beach first)

The second cause of your fleets demise is the builder who is introducing new designs to meet the demands of sailors who are not satisifed with a hobie 18 ride. (Eg Tigers, Foxes and Miracles.)



you wrote

If it comes to the point that I have to purchase the latest and greatest class boat to come down the pike in order to race, the value in my boat will fall dramatically.



Well, your gripe is really with your sailing buddies... They are dumping your one design class and choosing a new challenge (or in your terms... the latest and greatest) perhaps they believe that a good one desing class will emerge... but recent history is against them. They could have stayed with your one design class... no one forced them out. Also... perhaps you are way off about the true value of your existing boat.



You wrote.

Instead of taking the loss, I'll probly just go pleasure crusing.



Well you are always welcome in open class and may actually find some competiton for your skill level there. At least the pecking order will be new to you for a short while.



Perhaps you should upgrade your Hobie 18... a new high tech square top main... an appropriate chute... Several long time Hobie 18 sailors report that these modest $$$ upgrades really adds new life to the boat. (Gee... maybe several TheMightyHobie18 's could agree on a set of standards and you would have a revitalized class.)



In short, you are disillusioned with the changes in the cat racing community because the fun factor is dropping in the face of tiny one design fleets.. You decided that Non Hobies were causing much of the upset without looking at the facts... at least in Div 11 The facts don't support your conclusion. Your response... of well... If you don't join me in my one desing class... I will just take my boat and go home certainly won't persuade anyone else to change their attitudes about racing in a Hobie 18 one design fleet either.



As you probably realize, the glory days of 4 boats, Hobie 16, 18,'s and Prindle 16's and 18's are long gone... I don't see any evidence that the one design song is motiviating the troups to purchase a single type of boat... Another TheMightyHobie18 sailor pointed out the overwhelming success of PHRF in big boats.... Perhaps you should consider shaping the open class to your likening. Otherwise as you noted cruising will be your only option.

As a hobie owner and sailor since the mid 80's I have to say, I've loved the Hobie 16, and one design racing. However, the world changes, technology improves, and the best toys get more expensive. That's life. I am presently at the point of looking for a new cat, and am glad there are so many choices and I'm not limited to getting another Hobie. If I can't afford the fastest boat out there, I will just have to race against others with the same financial limits as me. Variety is a wonderful thing, and though I will always hold a special place in my heart for the Hobie 16, I look forward to a future sailing and racing whatever and wherever I can.

Jay, is that you (woodsskier)? Shoulda come over for the pre-season gathering of Malletts Bay cat sailors last Wednesday night. When you get your boat, you'll have to join us around the buoys on Wednesday nights.



Cheers,

The same thing has happened in Division 9.

Most of the best 18 & 20 sailors have switched to Tigers, including two Worrell sailors.

HOBIE U.S. had to go to all of the trouble to import boats from europe and import aluminum masts to make this happen. HOBIE did this, not the sailors.

Good sailors always want to sail the fastest boat.

I guess a lawyer would call the Tiger an "attractive nuisance" :-)

The upgrade to which I referred was from older to newer equipment. My old boat was a 1981 vintage and about 40# heavy. The move to the 18 was to accomidate my size. At 6'4", I would never be light enough to compete in the 16 class.



I probably painted a darker picture than was real concerning the 18 class. Last year there were 2 brand new 18's on the water at our regatta that were delivered just one week earlier. This year, we are expecting a couple of 18's from division 12. There is also another new 18 in our club parking lot this spring though it may be an SX.



I and my fleet put forth a great effort to host a division regatta. We do this because we love one design racing and want to see it survive. We need about 50 boats to break even and run an open class to help get enough boats on the water. It would enhance the experience to have those boats in the one design fleets but we are realists. Most hobie regattas run open races. I may be mistaken but I do not believe that Nacra, Prindle, or Inter fleets run regattas where the hobies are welcome.



In a perfect world there would be 20+ boats in every class at every division regatta. The hobie versus non hobie discussion would be moot then. Maybe we should be asking the question, "How do we grow the sport"

I raced J/24 one design for 2 years and PHRF for 8 years. One design was dominated by the boat or two that could afford all the new gear each and every year. PHRF was dominated by whoever sailed their rating the best. PHRF sailors sat on their boats and shared beer and stories, One designers sat on their boats and looked smug and ignored anyone who wasn't one of them. One design is for regionals, nationals, continentals and worlds - Absolutely! Race the rest in an open format. Have fun, enjoy the sport and get lots of boats involved. Why put up walls just because someone isnt running the same rig as you are?

You must be talking about monohulls. In the hobie one designs, the specs are tight enough that the best sailors can win with any boat built in the last 10 years (assuming it hasn't been abused in those 10 years.) Last years hobie 16 North American Champion sailed that regatta with sails that were at least 4 years old. At the Saturday night parties at these regattas, most of the class hot shots go out of their way to make the newbies welcome. What I am referring to is the Hobie Way of Life. We are a group of ultra competitive people on the water and ultra social people on land. Handicap racing would not satisify our competitive zeal. No handicap system yet devised is fair to all boats in all conditions and even if it were, it detracts from the game to wonder if I should be covering the boat right behind me with a similar rating or the one behind him with a slower rating that might in fact be in front of the whole fleet on corrected time!

The point is, one design excludes people who would otherwise be great competition. The largest statewide sailing organization is stacked with NACRA 6.0 NA's. I am sure I will take my fair share of greif for picking up a Hobie 20 Miracle. It was the boat I wanted in the condition I wanted at the price I wanted. The criteria none of which any NA's I investigated satisfied. I am just glad that the local sailing fleet is made up of PRINDLES, NACRAS, HOBIES and even a TORNADO. An "open" bunch to say the least.