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Promoting Catamaran Sailing #58149
09/28/05 10:09 AM
09/28/05 10:09 AM
Joined: Sep 2005
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38.912, -95.37
_flatlander_ Offline OP
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I didn't intentionally put the "sourpuss" in title. Could
not figure how to edit out!

Quote
This thread is slightly tied to an earlier thread I think Mary started entitled (paraphrasing) "What would you do to increase the popularity of Cat sailing?"


I've looked but cannot find Does anyone recall which thread, I'd appreciate it.

It seems as though youngsters, or any age for that matter, get gun shy looking at all the lines on a cat. I fall into the category of got a boat with bell and whistles, adding more bells and whistles, and enjoying tinkering almost as much as sailing. This does nothing for promoting the sport with the late teens and twenties crowd. They love it on the water, but hate the setup takedown. There are a few older throw and go boats out there that are affordable for these younger sailors. Needed are mentors and a venue. Looking for more ways to perpetuate a good thing.

Last edited by flatlander18; 09/28/05 10:58 AM.

John H16, H14
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Promoting Catamaran Sailing [Re: _flatlander_] #58150
09/28/05 10:23 AM
09/28/05 10:23 AM
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,921
Michigan
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It would seem that the apparent complexity might be a turn-off (all you do with a waverunner is press a button). Having sailed for 10 years or so - mostly on monohulls- I still am confused why people think sailing is so complex and difficult to learn. If I have guests on my monohull they think that pulling on all the lines is "complicated." Maybe it is just me- but once you understand that you can't go straight into the wind you have sailing pretty much figured out (more or less, of course). After you understand that then you have fun figuring stuff out from there on out. But then again, I probably make it look really easy
now ... with racing? To be honest, hanging around boats for a while, next to a yacht club, and talking to some racers- they always seemed supremely stuck-up and I never wanted to be a part of that crowd. Only recently have I started crewing on a monohull with a really great skipper who is, for the most part, laid back (with the occassional... GODDAMN IT! GET THE SPINNAKER UP! and THIS IS NO SOCIAL HOUR!) and I am having a great time.
I wish there were more inexpensive boats and easy/safe places to keep them- ideally keeping them on a beach somewhere with the mast up (difficult to get trailer, difficult to rig all the time from the trailer) but people seem a little more intolerant of this.

Re: Promoting Catamaran Sailing [Re: _flatlander_] #58151
09/28/05 11:18 AM
09/28/05 11:18 AM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 141
Panama City Beach, FL
steveh Offline
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I think the whole "sailing is complicated" thing is all relative. My kids play saxophone and flute. Between the plethora of keys, fingering charts, musical notation, bending, trilling, slurring, etc, etc, etc it all looks pretty complicated to me. Some people think nothing of computer networking, others can cook complex recipes, others can whip up a nice graphic or drawing in Photoshop or AutoCAD. Maybe the response to "sailing is complicated" is to find out what complex thing the person can do and work from there.

Now the setup/teardown issue is another thing entirely. Frankly, I do not enjoy hoisting an unwieldy 31ft mast in humid 90 degree heat before the sea breeze kicks in and the cooking in the parking lot while rigging the boat. I'm getting quicker at the process and I'm working on streamlining it and making it easier, but selling the boat and buying a nice tenor sax and taking lessons from my daughter has a certain appeal, even if it is too complicated!

Re: Promoting Catamaran Sailing [Re: _flatlander_] #58152
09/28/05 12:43 PM
09/28/05 12:43 PM
Joined: Mar 2003
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Westport, Ma. U.S.A.
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There was a thread called something like: What would you do to market catamarans. I think there was another as well, but can't think of the title. As for how to do it, look at Caleb Tarleton's(?) Fleet in Washington state. They run a great Hobie 101 Seminar every year. Fleet 204 in N.Y. just sent some sailors to the youth nationals, and Fleet 448 in Rhode Island gets a decent turnout every year for a learn to sail cats seminar marketed by the Learning Connection.

Re: Promoting Catamaran Sailing [Re: steveh] #58153
09/28/05 01:59 PM
09/28/05 01:59 PM
Joined: Sep 2005
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_flatlander_ Offline OP
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steveh,

Quote
I do not enjoy hoisting an unwieldy 31ft mast in humid 90 degree heat


Until last Sunday there was only an TheMightyHobie18. I bought the 18 basicly because I had a 16 years ago and wanted more, all the stuff to fiddle with. Only one of my three sons is not completely bored by the rig/derig, and the 18 sits in the dry dock, mast up.

I bought the H16 to thwart some doubts and am refering to it as a throw and go boat, throw up the mast, hoist the sails and go sailing (Oh, I may have left out some "minor" rigging details and certainly will try to pound the safety issues into their heads)

Brian_Mc,

Thanks for the tips, I looking for more than the "See how easy it is to rig?"


John H16, H14
Re: Promoting Catamaran Sailing [Re: PTP] #58154
09/28/05 02:21 PM
09/28/05 02:21 PM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 281
Houston, Texas
EasyReiter Offline
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Houston, Texas
As I always say, enjoy all the moments in life, putting up a mast in 90+ deg heat is just as enjoyable as a screaming reach in 15kts, (well almost, anyway)
the only problem with kids is that their parents keep asking them what they want to be when they grow up and that puts them thinking in the future all the time. if you can bring them back to the present and ask them what they want to feel right now, and see if putting up the mast might forward their feeling of accomplishment and then their feeling of joy.
yes all you with no idea what I am talking about can now trash me for being a hippy, pot smoker if you like. (I do not smoke pot, and am bald).
The problem with sailing is not in the details, it is in the experience of it, not enough people experience it, take a friend sailing and then take their kids sailing, and then take a stranger sailing, after a while many people will be in your neighborhood asking if you want to go sailing with them.

Last edited by marcreiter; 09/28/05 02:23 PM.

Marc Reiter I 20 #861 Dikes, Ferries and Tramps. www.texascitydike.com
Re: Promoting Catamaran Sailing [Re: EasyReiter] #58155
09/28/05 03:48 PM
09/28/05 03:48 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 221
North Carolina
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When I first got my Hobie 16, 20 years ago, the beach at the lake where I sail would be lined up wall to wall with Hobies. As time went on there were fewer and fewer catamarans but more windsurfers. I came to the conclusion that as the price went up, the younger wantabe sailors couldn't afford the catamarans but the windsurfers were in their price range.

The local Hobie fleets used to have a weekend where they would show up and take anyone who was interested, out for an introductory ride. I haven't seen it done for some time. It is easy to sell people on the catamaran. Just take them out on a good day. My 8 grandchildren, ranging in age from 9 to 24, all love to sail on the Hobie. It is the exposure to it that sold them. Will they go out and buy one? I think the price will be a big factor in that decision.

I don't think the number of lines or setting up the boat is much of an issue with new sailors, especially the H-16.

Howard

Re: Promoting Catamaran Sailing [Re: hrtsailor] #58156
09/28/05 04:20 PM
09/28/05 04:20 PM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,074
Northfield,NH USA
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Brian is right about the title of the prior thread. The answers given here went along the same vein......

Like it or not, we have become an instant gratification society. I ask my son what he dislikes the most about sailing and he says, "It takes too long to set it all up and take it all down." While he is out there he has a ball swinging and singing on the trapeze. By the way, has anyone ever untied the bungie cord on the trapeze lines
and let their kids try to purposely swing all the way around the forestay to the other side and back again? It's a great activity while waiting for the wind to pick up.

Anyway, back to the subject, everytime I bring a new person and they see all the steps involved they say, "I could never do all this." I had a pilot tell me that last week. I said, "That is why I have this pre-flight list! Just like you do before you fly." People love it when they get out there but they just don't seem to have the love of it to A) buy one. B)learn to put it together C)Play with it.

Since Mary asked the question way back I have found myself asking the same question over and over again. I haven't found an answer to keep the sport alive except those already said, take as many new people out as you can. I'm pessimistic for it's future as the number of us dwindles and the available launch sites dwindles. At least it doesn't take much gas.


The nice part about being a pessimist is that you are constantly being either proven right or pleasantly surprised. - George Will
"It's not that liberals aren't smart, it's just that so much of what they know isn't so" -Ronald Reagan
Re: Promoting Catamaran Sailing [Re: hrtsailor] #58157
09/28/05 04:24 PM
09/28/05 04:24 PM
Joined: Sep 2005
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_flatlander_ Offline OP
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Howard,

The windsurfer, then PWC, now kayak? assaults have certainly taken their toll. But hasn't the price gone up on everything? Competition is tough when a new yak is $1,500.

I'm saying there's a lot of H14s and H16s out there (the boats you and I bought in the 80's) going for $500 to ???, granted some are junk. And you are correct, at least comparitively speaking, set up is not an issue.

Down side, If you get hooked and your a struggling twenty something, the monetary step up from an old 16 is huge.


John H16, H14
Re: Promoting Catamaran Sailing [Re: bullswan] #58158
09/28/05 05:12 PM
09/28/05 05:12 PM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 141
Panama City Beach, FL
steveh Offline
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bullswan,

I'm not dealing with an instant gratification problem here, thankyouverymuch, it's more a problem of schedule. With two careers and two high school kids, working a day that can be committed to a family day of setup, sail and teardown is not easy. Now a uni, on the beach that can be easily soloed would be a different matter, but that doesn't work too well for four people.

Maybe I need another boat. Or one of those robot lawn-mowers.

Re: Promoting Catamaran Sailing [Re: _flatlander_] #58159
09/28/05 05:29 PM
09/28/05 05:29 PM
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Posts: 3,355
Key Largo, FL and Put-in-Bay, ...
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This is not exactly relative to the thread in one way, but it really is.
Regattas are the crux of how we get people into the sport.
So, promoting a regatta in every form possible brings more people into the fold to show them the fun.
Yet, most events are hyped and promoted to the max of affordability of the fleets. All in the hopes of gaining more people and gaining more sailors.
Great! Love it!
But, then after the race is over there is nothing but total radio silence. What happened? Who lost? Who crashed? Where are the people pictures? Where are the sailing pictures?
Usually nothing!
Funny, but publicizing the results, stories and pictures of an event that just happened is great promotion for the next year's event.
Funnier, that most fleets just go dead after an event. Nothing! Total radio silence! It eerie!
For example, Nigel and Mr. Ernie really go to the wall to promote Spring Fever and do a bang up job. What a great regatta.
But, this is the first year anyone has ever heard any results of it. The reason: Mary and I were there and did an indepth story. Otherwise, you would have heard nothing.
Every year we try to get something, but nothing.
I know it is exhausting to put on a regatta and when it is over you just want to crash and relax until next year. But, it is not OVER! You must report on what happened.
I really believe that the best promotion for your regatta is a story, results and pix of the past one.

Since Mary handed me the reins of the magazine I have seen a sharp learning curve. Three major regatta organizer promised me stories, results and pix.., nothing! Radio Silence!
In the last issue we published stories on small regattas.., hell! Why not. Anyone that sends us a story will be published.
But, no one sends anything. And we should not have to check each website to see stories and results. Not our job.., IT"S YOURS!
Want to promote sailing? Get it in the media by simply sending whatever you have.

Perhaps you are seeing why Mary quit!
I know I go nuts every year just trying to get people to get their schedules to me and/or update their websites. aaaagggghhhh!

I know! We are all volunteer folks and have real jobs. Great excuse! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />
Rick


Rick White
Catsailor Magazine & OnLineMarineStore.com
www.onlinemarinestore.com
Re: Promoting Catamaran Sailing [Re: steveh] #58160
09/28/05 06:24 PM
09/28/05 06:24 PM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,074
Northfield,NH USA
bullswan Offline
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Quote
bullswan,

I'm not dealing with an instant gratification problem here, thankyouverymuch, it's more a problem of schedule. With two careers and two high school kids, working a day that can be committed to a family day of setup, sail and teardown is not easy. Now a uni, on the beach that can be easily soloed would be a different matter, but that doesn't work too well for four people.

Maybe I need another boat. Or one of those robot lawn-mowers.



You are absolutely right, Steve. In thinking about it, I have the same problem in that by the time everyone gets to the lake we have barely enough time to set up and actually spend time on the water. Most of the time we go to Plan B which is the power boat and a fast fried chicken dinner and then we get to spend more time actually on the water (or in it).
A couple of times I've gone over to the lake early and had the boat all set up and ready to go but we always start off on the wrong foot because my wife is angry with me that I put the mast up alone.

Let me know if you find a solution to the lawnmowing as well. I have 3 acres I keep mowed....

Rick,
I hear what you are saying about Regatta's but....
The very word conjures up thoughts of Commodores and Buffy's and Bif's and Blue Blazes for me. I had enough racing as a kid in Beetlecats and for the most part I liked sailing enough to overlook most of the kids I had to sail with. I still carry that stigma with me. But that's my problem. I know racing is a great path to getting better in the sport but I also can't seem to get my kid that interested in racing. We just enjoy the time together as a family.
To do my part for the sport, I'm talking my son's school into starting a sailing program next summer with Lasers or sunfishes. Something easy they can experiment without feeling intimidated. And yes, I'll be volunteering for at least a week.

Greg


The nice part about being a pessimist is that you are constantly being either proven right or pleasantly surprised. - George Will
"It's not that liberals aren't smart, it's just that so much of what they know isn't so" -Ronald Reagan
Re: Promoting Catamaran Sailing [Re: _flatlander_] #58161
09/28/05 07:10 PM
09/28/05 07:10 PM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 26
llandudno, North Wales, UK
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llandudno, North Wales, UK
This isn't really a brainwave on how to promote cat sailing, more an observation on human behaviour.
I've noticed that when a hard core group of club sailors regularly race a particular class of boat, other club sailors will change to that boat type, and new incoming members will look to obtain the boat that they see racing regularly. In my local club a few years ago there was a strong fleet of Nacra 6.0's. After a couple of years they all disappeared pretty much at the same time. I am now the only member sailing a cat. Everyone else sails monohulls - mostly Lasers (see predominant class emerging!!). The next sailing club along the coast is now predominantly cat sailors (mostly Dart 18's), new members to this club are looking to get this cat type as are longer established members. I've no idea on how to promote the catamaran, its the speed thing that does it for me!

Chris

Re: Promoting Catamaran Sailing [Re: seajay] #58162
09/28/05 07:42 PM
09/28/05 07:42 PM
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 473
Panama City, Florida
Redtwin Offline
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Panama City, Florida
The cats rule next to monos for me. My son has sailed on both my old mono (Apollo 16) and my Nacra 5.2. He has also sailed on a laser, sunfish, H16, and a Hobie Bravo with me. He doesn't mind the leaning. He basically started sailing with me as soon as the smallest life jacket would fit him. On the other hand, my nephew, who did not grow up around boats, was absolutely terrified on the Apollo 16. He did not like the healing. He was still a little aprehensive about getting on the Nacra, even though I lied to him about it never tipping over; but once he got on and we started hauling rump, he relaxed and actually got on the wire for a while. I think catamarans are the way to get the kids into sailing. They are fast, they are stable, and they are fun to sail. I'm lucky that setup isn't much of an issue. My boat is parked on the beach mast up about 50 flat feet from the water. I can get my boat rigged and on the water in almost the same time it takes my co-worker to get his jetski down the ramp and over to the beach area.
I am also lucky that I only have a city lot to mow and my wife usually does it during the week for me. What a girl!

-Rob V.
Nacra 5.2
Panama City

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Rob V. Nacra 5.2 Panama City
Re: Promoting Catamaran Sailing [Re: steveh] #58163
09/28/05 09:14 PM
09/28/05 09:14 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 221
North Carolina
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I really don't understand you all about the problem of setting up and taking down a Hobie. It takes me 15 to 20 minutes solo to set up, raise the mast, and launch and another 10 minutes raising the sail on the beach. It takes me as long to open up my catboat which is in a boat slip essentially ready to go. There I have to take off a cover, open the cabin, stow my gear, get out cushions, take off a sail cover, hook up the fuel line and start the motor.

Setting up a Hobie (16) is not a problem. There used to be a lot more Hobies where I sail than there are now. More boats meant more people were exposed to it. As the number dropped, the exposure was less. I took people out on an initial ride and within a few months saw them again with their own boats. I remember one fellow told me he knew they were fast but he had no idea they were that fast. He had just bought a monohull which he sold to get a Hobie.

Howard

Re: Promoting Catamaran Sailing [Re: RickWhite] #58164
09/28/05 10:56 PM
09/28/05 10:56 PM
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 736
Westport, Ma. U.S.A.
Brian_Mc Offline
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Rick, I totally agree! I noticed nobody from 448, or possibly all of Division 12 had sent race schedules to you this year. We have been known for our own news letter, but the issue I just got, covered June and July. They beg for contributions of stories/reports too, but don't seem to get them anymore. I know for me personally, as one who has been reduced to an almost voyer sailor( got out twice this year) I crave reports on Regattas, and just cat sailing adventures. I'll try to muster some response up here, though with my schedule(essentially two full time jobs) it's not like I can offer a lot. At least I should be able to get you the Division schedule next year! Thanks again for this forum, and for the great magazine!

Re: Promoting Catamaran Sailing [Re: hrtsailor] #58165
09/28/05 11:33 PM
09/28/05 11:33 PM
Joined: Sep 2005
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_flatlander_ Offline OP
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The time to set up a 16 is a plus. Would it be fair to say that those of us that were there when the beaches were covered with cats, as we've aged and have a little more money to spend, and if we stayed with cats have trended towards bigger/better/faster boats?, which equates to more setup time. Which creates more of a fear factor for newcomers.
Here the biggest fleet is the Miracle 20. My intentions were to sell my 18 and get a 20, then I thought how selfish. For the extra jack I'd spend in the difference I can buy my own novice fleet of 16's for my three sons and friends (one down, two to go).
I've watched the college sail team kids struggle to keep the pointy side up with their monos. What a coo it would be to have catamarans, no matter what manufacturer, in college racing. It has to start somewhere. Greg, Why do so many youth sailing clubs get started with the Lazer or Sunfish, why not H14's? OK, so you can't buy a trailer you can haul out six 14's to the regatta, so why don't we step up and show them how we did it in the old days? It will take another dad/coach to drive. Big deal. Sailing during the school year (i.e. colder months) would be much more pleasurable on a nice stable catamaran.
I realize the amount of precious time it takes to put on a regatta and the more time to hold hands with a newbie, how did we get started?

I have one acre and very understanding neighbors who kid me about the "sailor cut".

Last edited by flatlander18; 09/28/05 11:36 PM.

John H16, H14
Re: Promoting Catamaran Sailing [Re: RickWhite] #58166
09/29/05 12:11 AM
09/29/05 12:11 AM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 806
Toronto, Ontario
pitchpoledave Offline
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Toronto, Ontario
Hi Rick,
I agree that regattas are important, but a lot of people get turned off by regattas because they are new and they know that they don't have a hope in hell..Better to ease them into the sport with some pleasure sailing, and also crewing in regattas.

Also, I think that a sailing school would do great things for cats... Why do we have all these dinghy schools at yacht clubs and no cat schools? (Or very very few?) I think that cats are a natural progression out of dinghys and so lets get these sailors hooked before they start dragging lead around at 7 knots.
Dave

Re: Promoting Catamaran Sailing [Re: pitchpoledave] #58167
09/29/05 01:20 AM
09/29/05 01:20 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 851
US Western Continental Shelf
hobiegary Offline
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I don't usually jump in on a thread that discuses the fall of racing popularity. And I don't like to read about the fall of cat sailing popularity, so I probably have only skimmed this thread. I don't like to read about the fall of the popularity because it depresses me. Racing: I personally never needed racing; I am just as thrilled to sail by myself as anyone might find in racing.

I've skimmed because a) I don't' care much about racing EXCEPT to the extent that I want my fellow cat sailors to be able to have their races when that is what is important to them. And, b) I can't bear to read all the bad news about the fall of the popularity of cat sailing.

But I am tossing in a few cents worth of opinion here just because I feel that I have a little bit to contribute to the whole conversation and that my thoughts might be appreciated by some. I am *not* contributing for any selfish reasons and I am also not whining nor complaining about anything; just making some observations.

I think that the sport of cat sailing is experiencing the same illness and epidemic as just about any other physically demanding (physically exercising, physically responsive, physically interacting) activities that people once did and are now becoming detached from. I think that our society has digressed away from physical fun stuff and become more benign in their behavior.

I also think that cat sailing is following the same path as any other activity that takes a lot of time to prepare for, that more and more people are not finding time to take their time to do anything that is not more instantly gratifying.

Too many people can't appreciate the exercise, both mental and physical, in preparations for an activity. Too many people won't bother to spend a lot of time and energy in preparing for an activity or event.

The reason I judge that 'too many' people are no longer doing such activities is that you can see that the health of the people who used to do this is much better than the health of the ones who don't do it. People! You need to be a cat sailor; it is good for you!

Anyway... It saddens me to see my sport go down the tubes. But honestly, I am more saddened to find out that today's youth are not doing 10 minutes of calistentics, followed by 35-40 minutes of physical play, every day of the school week as we did when I was a school boy. This is absolutely sickening and if I had a child, I simply would not stand for this BS.

Now get your arses off your couch and teach your children the physical, mental, and emotional benefits of working hard at playing hard. I'll continue to sail by myself if need be. I don't really need you to be out there on the water; but I will miss you very much in knowing that you are missing out on something that you might or might not understand.

I hope that everyone who wants to sail, gets to sail. I hope that more people will find the opportunity to find the appreciation for the sport as I have been able to find.

I wish that cat sailing would grow in popularity; it is good for people's soul, mind, and body. People need to do such activities and cat sailing is one of the best of these kinds of activities.

I wish you all
Fair Winds,

GARY


Santa Monica Bay
Mystere 6.0 "Whisk" <--- R.I.P.
Re: Promoting Catamaran Sailing [Re: hobiegary] #58168
09/29/05 09:28 AM
09/29/05 09:28 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 221
North Carolina
hrtsailor Offline
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North Carolina
Gary,

I agree with you. I have been sailing for many years. I started sailing a Hobie at age 51 and am 71 now. I know that it has helped me stay in shape and healthier. I sail solo a great deal of the time.

The video games have helped ruin the health of a lot of children. But there are a lot of soccer kids out there who make up for some of it. It seems schools don't have mandatory Phys. Ed. much any more which doesn't make any sense to me. When I was in school there were no school cafeterias, we brought our lunch, but there was Phys. Ed. Maybe that is why they talk more about obesity now.

Howard

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