I`ve had more than one monohull sailor ask me for hard numbers regarding the pointing abilities of my H16. This usually occurs after a little blurb whereby they tell me that Cats can ONLY reach or head downwind. I usually respond to this by saying; IF that were really true, Catsailors would never be able to get back to the beach with an offshore wind...then the puzzled look...the wheels turn. Eventually, they seem to figure out that Catsailors aren`t constantly being rescued in Europe after sailing from the the east-coast of North America.

I know from my limited experience the H16 can certainly go to weather. But I am also certain that my boat is not sailing the "advertised" 90 degrees through the wind either.

So, my question is; what are the pointing numbers for the average H16, as well as a race-tuned H16 with lots of rake?
I am sure the pros` have a good handle on this. What`s the scoop here?


Dave

I don't know any exact figures, but it's more like 45deg. Where did 90deg come from? Just tell them to set a course with an A mark straight up wind and race them there.

That would be "90 degrees THROUGH the wind" or 45 degrees TO the wind - same thing. But as I said, I am sure my H16 is not pointing that high.

Dave

Better yet: Set a mark (or set an A mark) 43º off the wind, a few miles away. Now let the lead mines go at it a few minutes ahead of the cats. Enjoy the ride, go ahead and pass on their lee side (avoiding a pointing match into irons) and proceed to go higher than they can after you've passed them.

You can do this exercise every weekend in Marina Del Rey as the entire recreational daysailing fleet runs up the coast. You can catch the fleet, pass the fleet, and look back on the fleet as they throw in a tack or two to keep up to your windward progress while you sail on one single tack.

The best part, for me, is watching the slip angle as you pass them. You pass to windward if you have room, otherwise you pass to leeward and then come back up to their track. As you look at them, they appear to pointing higher. They are indeed aiming their bow higher. They are actually sailing lower and have a much higher slip angle as evidenced by the fact that they fall to leeward of you.


I can provide plenty of hard data showing tacks in the neighborhood of less than 95º (divided by two tacks is 47.5) on both my Mystere 6.0, a Prindle 19, and I may have some done on a Nacra 5.8.

Oh shoot! I just realized I was on the Hobie 14, 16 forum. I don't know what kind of pointing I can do on asymetric hulls.

In the words of Emily Letilla (a Gilda Radner character on Saturday Night Live in the 70's)... "Nevermind! "

GARY

It isn't just how high you can point - it's VMG (Velocity Made Good) to weather that counts. A Hobie 16 will point really high - and go really slow. If you put the nose down and foot (especially in a breeze), you actually go faster to weather.

A good race committee will set their weather mark to provide about a 10 minute weather leg in moderate to heavy conditions (that's roughly a 40 minute race, two laps around). In 15 kts of breeze, a Hobie 16 can cover a nautical mile straight upwind in that time. That's 6 kts VMG, or about 12 kts over the bottom (actual distance travelled ~2 nm).

Good luck getting a mono-slug to go that fast.

Fellas,

I know the Cat will make better time upwind than a monohull - regardless of specific pointing ability. But the mono-sailors I know seem understand their own pointing abilities (numbers) pretty well and have it down to the number of degrees.

Most sailors know/accept that monos generally out-point cats. So, when some mono guy says to me his boat points 110 degrees through the wind and I reply with the "advertised" 90 degrees through the wind for my H16, I do not sound credible.

Besides that, on my last sail of the season I took a compass with me to get some accurate numbers on this. But, since the winds were a bit strong that day, and I was sailing solo, accurate readings were not possible - though I am sure I could not point 45 to the wind. It seemed more like 60 degrees (120 through the wind) - maybe even more.


Dave

I race with a compass all the time. The 16 tacks in about 100 deg most of the time.
(But like Matt said you can point higher by going slower.)

Accurate pointing numbers will not come from a compass unless you drag a line in the water and measure your slip angle with a protracter, then deduct the slip angle from the apparant compass heading.

I guess that there are a lot of semantic questions to be answered before you begin to compare "pointing angles" with someone. Some people feel that since there boat is "pointed" or aimed at a certain landmark that bears a certain compass reading, that they are actually going in that direction.

When I tell someone that I am doing 90º tacking anlges, it means that my boat is moving over the ground, as recorded on gps tracking program, 90º off of my previous tack. Here is an example. Diclaimer, this is not a Hobie 14 or 16.



GARY

look again at 'vmg' discussed above. its mostly 'pointless'to worry about how narrow an angle you can tack through when footing is faster. i do however need to point occasionally while racing in our mixed fleet of lasers, mc scows, jy 15's etc, and find i can usually point as high as they can while sailing a little faster. on my ol boardless H16. but i can blow them off by footing a little and getting way out front before tacking.

Yes, it is all about VMG, not pointing ability.

I sailed on a TriFoiler against a fleet of Hobie 20s upwind one day in Long Beach, California. There was about 16-18 knots of wind and I had my wife in the boat. The TriFoiler certainly can not point as high as the Hobie 20 with dagger boards, but just like a comparison of cats to monohulls... I went lower, but faster and was able to pace and actually beat the 20s upwind (VMG). We were trying to stay out of the way.

Now... turning at the weather mark... yeee haa! we were scary fast going 2-3 times as fast and lower than the 20s.

VMG around the course? In certain wind conditions (when the TriFoiler can foil upwind) the TriFoiler is the clear winner even though it can not point as high.

I have always heard and seen demonstrated 45 deg off the wind. I have never heard the term through the wind. Does this mean the value is twice the "off the wind" value?

You can always tell them to think about it while they are sailing to meet you at the A mark.

Nick,

Perhaps its a regional thing. But when some sailors talk about pointing up here (also in some books) it is stated as the number of degrees from tack to tack - as opposed to the number of degrees off the wind. I don`t know why this is the case. I am comfortable with either reference.

Dave

Captain Dave,

First of all, you have without a doubt the classiest H16 boat and trailer setup I have ever seen, not to take anything away from others' impeccable work we have seen on these forums. Exquisite workmanship, superb color choices.

I have a question. Who's asking you for these figures? If I were your monohull aquaintance, and you bought a (gasp) multi-hull, I'd be scared too. This obviously isn't your first resto project. Do you realize the large void they're feeling? of losing you forever?

They all know you will never come back from the clutches of "zee catamaran". The speed and exileration standard has been raised to a level they can never again attain for you. They can not prove it to you on the water so they're grasping at your intellect in an attempt to keep you from going to..."the Dark Side".

Why Daves' been so busy on the internet lately,
"Dave don't you think you'd command a bristol price for that er Hobie?"
"Dave, don't you think you're a bit old for a craft such as that?"...

but alas Dave you are gone,

gone forever,

and (sob,sob) deep down inside,

they all know,

now

there is no coming back,

for Captain Dave.

John,

Without a doubt, you have paid me the best compliment I have had on the restoration of my H16 boat and trailer - thx!

The sailors are just guys around the marina where I keep my powerboat (the other "dark side"). Some of them have been surprised at how "adjustable" the H16 is (ie) travellers, furler, two sails, downhaul...I have found their knowledge of catamarans to be almost nil - other than the stereotypical anti-cat dogma.

It is funny you should mention the age thing. At 39, I initially wondered if I was too old to give cat-sailing a go. I think some friends and family may wonder a bit too. But when I am on that boat, I certainly don`t feel that way. My only regret - I should have started cat-sailing earlier. If only for the sheer enjoyment.


Dave

Dave,

We deal with it at our lake too, it's as though cat sailors are deemed renegades in the sailing world. Just trying to bring some levity to the situation.

Was just guessing on your age and I flat missed it.
Shame on me to equate talented craftsmanship with "age". I assIuIme ed... Please accept my apology.

Until this year my last catamaran race (as a driver) was 20 years ago. We bought a h.p. dinghy this spring (now that move got me some "what are you thinking" looks from the family) Sold it because I was never that great of a skateboarder and not formally trained in ballet. Stabilty wise, catamarans are a
snooze, and much faster.

I draw an analogy to my "feelings" about the spi rigged cat (Inter17) at our lake. Jealousy, it's so damn fast down wind, and fear, of going for a ride and knowing that our old sloop rigs pale by comparison.

John,

No apology necessary at all. Believe me, age HAS been a significant factor for me in this kind of work. Especially in having the patience to follow the best procedures - taking no shortcuts and making no comprimises.

I too love the look of the spinnakers - a lot. Though I have my newbie hands quite full at present... Maybe in a year or so. I like a Hooter setup more in terms of simplicity and would probably elect for that over a true spinnaker. But, I do not know if this exists for the H16.

Dave

One thing I did when I had my old 16 in the late 80's was this. With the mast up, from the shroud look at the sail track and see if it lines up when the mast is rotated to the stop. If not take a file and take a little off the stop until the sail track lines up dead on when you look at it from the shroud. Do the same for the other side. NO ONE!!!!! Could out point me when I raced. Think I was somewhere around 35-40 degrees. I spanked every boat to the weather mark. Try this and let me know.

Doug Snell
dsnell4@houston.rr.cpm
Hobie 17

Over rotation on the 16 depowers the boat and will reduce your ability to point. DO NOT file down the stops. They are probably worn anyway. A new mast base will help you power up and point.

Doug,

To be honest, the stops on my mast step are already worn a bit (5 to 10 degree aprox.) and I know for certain that I am not pointing as well as the figures you stated.

However, due to my lack of experience with this boat, I cannot comment on whether the boat points better or worse with this wear and tear.

I am skeptical though. Some things that have impressed me (very much) with both Hobie and the Hobie community are the longetivity and evolution of the basic H16 design, the sheer number of boats out there, and the huge level of sailing expertise that resides within the Hobie community. Having said that, if filing/grinding those stops could create such a performance enhancement, I would expect the manufacturer to have already made the change, or failing that, these forums to be full of suggestions on how and why it should be done.

Is it possible some other change you made resulted in the performance enhancement?

Dave

Over rotating the mast will deform the wing shape you are trying to achieve. This could severly affect the point where the airflow separates from the airfoil drastically reducing lift, i.e. power. Maybe in lighter air it was a help.

I know on my TheMightyHobie18 with the mast rotation adjustment, we never have the mast rotate past 45 degrees from the centerline. Often we limit it to less.