On some earlier posting, someone was asking about jib set ups. I've got pictures of 3 different setups that you can have a look at.

One is VectorWorks Blade set up, one other from Agent Orange Blade F16 and the other, Rhino Grey Taipan F16.

Agent Orange's has a turning block near the base of the spinnaker pole which directs the jib sheet outboard and then through the beam sleeve.

Rhino's follows along the same lines as the US Blade but in both our cases, we don't use the swivelling cleat as the Harkens non-pivoting cleat does a very good job at the same task without the need for a swivel and follows nicely along our minimalist ideas!!

But in the Agents case, most of the sheeting force is directed straight down the spinnaker pole. We first had a system on it which put a bit more side ways load on the jib tack area so that it deflected the tack of the jib to oneside. This way appears to be a lot better, but we can still tidy it up a lot more and are exploring another system altogether..

Comments are welcome as we'd like to see the NEATEST system on the planet with the LEAST amount of fittings. So far so good.

cheers
the Skunk

Blade system 2

Pro Sail Taipan F-16 System

Pro Sail Taipan System 2

Pro Sail Blade F16 - Agent Orange system

Pro Sail Blade - Agent Orange system 2

another pic of the VectorWorks Blade

I'm used to the system on the Hobie Tiger, and it works pretty well. Basically, it's the same as the Agent Orange system, but without the first pair of pulleys that the jib sheet goes through (at the foot of the pole). It goes straight from the cleat to the floating block and back to the other cleat. It does mean that the sheet angles aren't perfect, but provided that you set it up well (such that the floating block is far enough down the pole) it works very well. You still get about 3:1 on the jib, which is plenty.

Paul

Agent Orange's system minimizes the amount of jib sheet needed (larger dia, less weight/spaghetti), so that is a plus. The VWM Blade has fixed blocks on the pole, so twisting would not be a problem (may not be a problem, but theoretically could be)..so that is a plus. The Pro Asia set up is the same as the VWM Blade, but with more floating blocks, maybe a very small minus.

I'd have to vote a tie with VWM and Agent Orange, with the Pro Sail in a close third. The winner would depend on the sheeting action of the two systems (which I cannot judge from here).

Where do the bitter ends of the jib sheets go? Tied off at the shroud, main beam, looped through the main beam? I'd like to see a continuous jib sheet system. I am sure if I get back to the other thread, it'll be in there somewhere.

My two cents.

well the bitter ends haved a sweet ending because they go through a sleeve that is the trampoline around the mainbeam and are attached to each other by a bungee cord!

This has the added advantage that it really tidies up the trampoline and, for that, the Pro-Sail boats are a bit ahead i.e. no real strings across the deck..

If you want a better look, have a look at this,

www.prosail-asia.com/Boats/F16%20page.html

cheers

Tell me more about the Prosail Carbon 50-50 beams please...

What I can tell you about the Carbon 50:50..

Marine grade alu' was impossible to find around here to suit the beam purpose. So a variety of tubes from 18mm - 80mm was constructed to suit a variety of jobs on the cat.

Then various combinations of composite were made across the range. This is 100% Carbon, 50:50 Carbon/Glass and 100% Glass.

The 50:50 was used on the rear as the pricing of such a unit is way below the 100% Carbon price. In this case I believe it was cheaper than the marine alu' equivalent which would have had to be imported.

So far its stood up to the task well and I've heard that Pro-Sail have now redone the layup schedule so that any new tubes produced will be about 4 times stiffer as well a mush improved hoop strength.

The tubes are built around a male mandrell with the pre-peg' being rolled on under pressure by a machine which looks like a huge cigarette roller then baked in an oven.

If you'd like samples or more info'. drop pro-sail an email. Hope that helps.

cheers

Hi everyone, new to forum, based in Dubai. Currently boatless & very keen to trial a blade. For jib setups, i would like to try a single swivel cleat very close to the centreline on the front crossbeam. Tailing the jib sheet to the main sheet/main traveller join. The theory being the skipper can easily assist crew getting sheet on/off for spin raise and drops. Plus less fittings and no sheet build up on one side. Not sure this would interfere with mast raising??

All the best
David

Those beams sound good, so why isn't everyone using them? Are they much more expesive than plain aluminium (assuming you don't have to import the alum.) and how much lighter are they?

in the current application on the Blade Agent Orange, the Carbon front beam is striker-less so the weight savings were big by comparison. From what I know the Carbon blank on the Agent weighed 2.8kgs add about .5 - 1kg for the fittings.

I can guess the weight of an Alu front beam at being about 7-9kgs with the striker and fittings.

The next series of pro sail composites are a lot stiffer longtitudinally and torsionally. I'd say it might have a wider appeal then. But most factories will still prefer to run alu'.

I'll find out the cost of the beams for you..

cheers

Rearbeam on my F16 (80 mm x 2 mm x 2500 mm) = 3.5 kg
Mainbeam on my F16 (superwing mast section x 1.6 mm x 2500 mm) = 4.0 kg ex dolphinstriker setup ; 6.5-7.0 kg incl dolphinstriker setup

Wouter

On my Tiger, I rotated the cheek blocks that are mounted on the spin pole about 45 degrees when I mounted them, it clears up that sheeting angle thing. Gonna have to get a picture. Used a pair of Harken 416's. You have to play a lot to find the right angle before you drill & rivet. A lot of it has to do with your jibsheet length. Mine are actually a little too close, I did that rather than accommodate buying a new longer jibsheet.
There is also no use for that Turning block that's mounted to the spinpole for the jibcar traveler adjustment. If you rotate that eyestrap 90 degrees you can lose the block completely and just use the eyestrap: West RF499 eyestrap has a stainless center ring that feeds the line without binding.
Small & light and dirt simple.
What is with the Flat plates you see holding up the ends of the jib traveler tracks on Orange and the Taipan? That blunt track end and the flat glass or aluminum supports looks like it would take a chunk out of me sooner or later.
Ouch!
Blade Track end support looks much kinder to our skin.

Thanks for comments and feedback - we'll soon get the neatest system on the planet working.

The flat plates, are going to have a high density foam cover over them to take the 'bashing'. Agree with you at the moment that it looks intimidating. On the plus side of that way of doing it, the Agent Orange uses Carbon/Kevlar tongues that are bonded to the Carbon beam. It weighed next to nothing and any flexing from the pull of the jib is well taken care of by the materials.

Once I plop a suitable foam cover over, will photograph it again.

I'd still like the ultimate jib system to tidy up what we already have working. Its coming especially after getting the feedback.

THanks again

Personally I like the jib sheet cleats to be more outward so that the crew don't has to go in very far to get to them. I like them swiveling so the crew can sit far forward and on the leeward side and still work the jib cleat. And I do like the jibsheet to go back on the trampoline a bit. At least to the sidestays if not further so you can adjust the jib in a blow and not worry about putting the boat in a pitchpole by moving forward to grap the sheet.

I like a clean trampoline like any other crew but I like to stay upright in a blow even more.

For recreational sailing tidying things up to a very high level is not a problem, when racing then a boat can be too tidy. Must take care not to compromise on accessibility or to compromise the ability to switch roles (skipper working the jib etc). Both of these are very important (= fast) during racing and mostly so during racing in the rough stuff.

Wouter

IN the interest of aiding the discussion I thought I'd give a bit of a run down on what I have
tried before settling on the setup similar to what is currently being used on the VM Blade.

My first setup was very similar to the setup on Agent Orange. Fixed cleats driving 2:1 purchase on
the jib. This worked quite well until the wind strength got up. I found that around 18 to 20 knots I
just didn't have enough purchase and as you are further back on the boat in these conditions the fixed
cleats were more difficult to operate.

A reduction in the final sheet loading may solve this and so I increased the purchase to 4:1
still with fixed cleats.

This was initially achieved with 2 single blocks attached to the junction betwen the jib compression
strut and spinnaker pole where the double block is on the VM Blade.
The lines exiting the two single blocks towards the cleats spun the blocks so they both sat in the same plane and the line exiting the blocks to the single sheave rubbed
against each other preventing the sheet from running smoothly. Even with the reduced loading in the
jib sheet the fixed cleats did not work as well as I had hoped.

My next change was to change the two single blocks for a double and put rotating cleats instead of fixed.
In this configuration I found that I could operate the jib from any position on the boat provided I could get my hand to the jib sheet but I still had a friction problem because
now the jib sheets rubbed on the pole.
A spacer under the head of the double block solved this problem and now it works to my satisfaction.


Regards,
Phill