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Worrell boat #7260
05/22/02 09:44 PM
05/22/02 09:44 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 80
Vero Beach Fl
nacra 269 Offline OP
journeyman
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journeyman

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Vero Beach Fl
While I understand the interest in a new choice for the Worrell I have to ask is it faster? The Worrell boat should be the fastest trailerable cat in production, not a boat that can accomodate the the small people. Who wants to watch the battle of the 5' 120lb boxers? This is the event that showcases our sport at the extreme. If this new boat can smoke a I-20....lets do it. If not....who will really care next year. Yeh you are the best of the compromised-but it could have been done in 8 hours less-what kind of race is that?

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Worrell boat [Re: nacra 269] #7261
05/22/02 10:14 PM
05/22/02 10:14 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Nacra 269 (boy, you started early! ;-),



no - probably not. The Javelin F18HT is not likely to be faster than the Inter 20. I don't think many people would consider it "more of a boat" either. However, technology triumphs - technology fails - and if nobody tests it we'll never move forward. Obviously, the lighter boats are the wave of the future (E=MC^2) and what better proving grounds to determine the strength of our technology than to build a light boat and test it in the Worrell? If nothing else, this race will give us something to talk about.



Personally, I am excited about the 2003 Worrell1000 boat selection. It's a continuation of "new twists" to a race that has gone from nothing to Sports Illustrated at Mike Worrell's direction. Publicity, publicity, publicity...let's keep catsailing interesting, exciting, and affordable - this is the birth and the future of catsailing!


Jake Kohl
Re: Worrell boat [Re: nacra 269] #7262
05/22/02 10:20 PM
05/22/02 10:20 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 305
toronto, canada
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toronto, canada
remember the days when it was run what you brung?

It's not about the boat! [Re: nacra 269] #7263
05/23/02 01:03 AM
05/23/02 01:03 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 283
hobie541 Offline
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The subject says it all folks. I said this while I was on the scene of the Worrell 1000 to those who particpated, and those who watched, and I'm going to keep saying until people start getting it. This Worrell 1000 is not about the boat!



Sure, it's been arranged to be a one design race, blah, blah, blah, but when it gets down to the brass tacks, this is a race about the endurance and the stamina of the sailors.



Mike Worrell has described the race as being the "Nautical Tour de France." Is the "Tour de France" about the Schwinn or Trek bicycle?! I don't think so!! Neither is the Worrell 1000 about the Inter 20, the Nacra 6.0, the Hobie 16, the Hobie 20, or any of the other boats that have sailed it, or will sail it. It's about sailors against the open ocean.



Many of speculated that next year's race won't be fair because certain hotshots whom I don't need to name, will come knowing the boat better than the rest of the sailors.



Hogwash!



I think it would be fun if the unveiling of the new boat could be done on the beach at the first start in 2003. Then every team would be randomly assigned to a boat, they would have an hour or two to do anything they wanted to to the boat, and then have at it! I can almost guarentee you that the outcome wouldn't change.



Ansel Adams wasn't a great photographer because of 8 X 10 view cameras. Tiger Woods isn't a great golfer becuase he uses Top Flite golf balls. Mark Twain wasn't a great writer because of a certain kind of pencil. People like Rick White aren't great sailors becuase of a certain kind of boat.



The above people all made great use of the man made tools they were given, that's for sure, but let us all remember that it's not about the boat (within reason, it has to be somewhat seaworthy), but it is about what Rick often refers to as the "loose nut at the end of the tiller."



My ten cents,



Tim J.


Tim D. Johnson Hobie 20 #690 Bald Eagle Yacht Club, Fleet 52 www.beyc.org
Re: Worrell boat [Re: nacra 269] #7264
05/23/02 07:00 AM
05/23/02 07:00 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 2,844
42.904444 N; 88.008586 W
Todd_Sails Offline
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I thought that the 18HT was faster on a windward leeward course.

Doouh, the Worrell is rarely windward or all the way leeward, I know.

It's the boat for 03. Why discuss it as if it's a poll or something?



Should be interesting.


F-18 Infusion
#626- SOLD it!

'Long Live the Legend of Chris Kyle'
Re: Worrell boat [Re: nacra 269] #7265
05/23/02 07:14 AM
05/23/02 07:14 AM

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I think that from all my research and discussions with current Javelin 2 owners that the best crew weight is MUCH higher than seems to be thought. Most Jav 2 sailor say they best weight is probbaly about the same as the I-20! One even said that he thought it would be higher and he has sailed the I-20 as well! I suppose time will tell, but none of the owners thought that the boat would suffer with 345 lbs crews. Let's hope that flatter sails will allow lighter crew to race this boat fairly against the the big guys.



As far as the speed of the boat, why don't you ask the I-20 owners whom have raced against it aroound the cans and in the Mug race? It beat ALL of the I-20s in the Mug and actually gained against them on the "jib reaches", by the accounts I read. The final Mug result also bears this out. As far as the around the can (upwind/downwind) stuff, check out Tradewinds, Spring fever, and Rehoboth results, if you are in doubt. Yes, both downwind and upwind are important in the W-1000, especially downwind. I doubt that the F-18hts will be faster than the I-20s in the worrell, but they shoould not much slower neither.

Re: Worrell boat #7266
05/23/02 10:07 AM
05/23/02 10:07 AM

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I think you folks forgot about the concept of One-Design. Who cares if the boat is marginally faster or slower, as long as all the boats are the same, it makes for equal racing.



One-Design is the only true racing, everything else is day sailing.



A.J. Piccillo

Re: It's not about the boat! [Re: hobie541] #7267
05/23/02 11:11 AM
05/23/02 11:11 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 397
Burlington, Vermont USA
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Kevin Rose Offline
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Tim,



> It's not about the boat!



Thanks for adding that post at the beginning of what will undoubtedly be a year-long argument about gear rather than sailing. The discussion will inevitably be punctuated with design jargon and long dissertations on which is the best boat – minimum this, maximum that, blah, blah, blah . . .



My hope is that there will be enough discussion about how to sail any boat better, faster, and safer to keep the less vocal majority interested.



BTW, I really like your idea of unveilng the boat just prior to the race and giving minimum time to make any alterations.


Kevin Rose N6.0na #215 Lake Champlain (New England's "west coast") Burlington, Vermont
Re: Worrell boat [Re: nacra 269] #7268
05/23/02 01:04 PM
05/23/02 01:04 PM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 251
beaufort, sc
dannyb9 Offline
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beaufort, sc
is bigger better or even faster? one thing for sure about the worrell, it will never be the same twice because the conditions will never be the same. i am interested to see how the uni boats will do and i like light. my only concern theoretically is the lack of availability of the bims, seems like the folks who buy one will have a big advantage on race day but hey, mike has been doing this race a long time and i trust he is doing good things for this most awesome small boat adventure.


marsh hawk
Re: It's not about the boat! [Re: hobie541] #7269
05/23/02 06:02 PM
05/23/02 06:02 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 305
toronto, canada
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look at the around alone race. (want to talk about endurance?) there are three classes. modified production boats, class II which are the 40-50 foot boats and class I for the 60s. in class II the 40s hold their own against the 50s. [Linked Image]

Re: Worrell boat #7270
05/23/02 08:33 PM
05/23/02 08:33 PM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 96
Racine, Wisconsin
Leo Offline
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Racine, Wisconsin
A.J. Piccillo ....



Anytime you have 2 or more boats on the water with the same intent of getting from point A to point B before the other guy, you have racing. While I agree that One Design is the true measure of sailor vs. sailor, mixed fleets creat design competiition that advances both technology and the sport.



Respectfully submitted.


Paul Scott Bartelt 2001 NACRA 6.0 NA #546
Re: Worrell boat #7271
05/24/02 08:30 AM
05/24/02 08:30 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
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Interesting points regarding crew weight for the F-18HT. I wonder why they indicate higher weights for that boat. Perhaps because the center of force on the sail is invariably higher up off the water, requiring greater weight to keep it under control? What is the bouyancy of the hulls (i.e, is the higher weight crew able to trim the boat correctly, or will the hulls be sitting too low in the water?)



I would tend to shy away from the results of one race determining which boat is faster. I don't recall any F-18HTs at Tradewinds, Performance nationals, and I only know of three or four at Spring Fever. I also understand that race weekend was very tricky wind. With the "big hitters" (Randy, W.F.) sailing them, it's not rocket science figuring out why those boats cleaned house.



According to US Sailing, the rating for the Jav 2 is slower than the I-20, and possibly the N6.0, but I'm sure that will change as more of them come in to the US and are put through their paces.



In some ways, I applaud Mr. Worrell for continually making us guess what will happen next, as that usually feeds publicity, and this new format for 03 will definitely allow participation from teams (international, lightweight, underfunded) who were excluded for various reasons in the past. However, it is somewhat disappointing that (if a trend develops) the race will move to slower boats (again, IF proven the F-18HT is slower than other offerings) - like switching the Indy 500 cars to minivans or something. Still would be fun to watch, but maybe not AS fun...



The Marstrom M-20 showed promise, as I have continually seen this boat stomp all over everyone at various distance races (Hiram's, Steeplechase, MKL, etc.) and bouys (with Robbie at the helm, of course). Curious that this was not selected, but there are ALWAYS other factors involved in boat selection...



Just my 1 1/4 cents worth!


Jay

Re: Worrell boat [Re: waterbug_wpb] #7272
05/24/02 10:48 AM
05/24/02 10:48 AM

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A couple of comments-



-There was a HT at Tradewinds and it consistantly (except one boat in one race) finished ahead all of the I-20s.



-5 boats at Spring Fever



-HTs proved as fast and faster than the I-20s at Mug Race



-At Rehoboth two HTs dominated that open event



-The HT PN is probationary and will probably drop somewhat



-If the HT is does not match the I-20 boat for boat, then the difference is slight



-The HT hulls seem very bouyant at the mainbeam and back, so IMHO they will carry weight well.



FEG




Re: Worrell boat [Re: nacra 269] #7273
05/24/02 09:57 PM
05/24/02 09:57 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 80
Vero Beach Fl
nacra 269 Offline OP
journeyman
nacra 269  Offline OP
journeyman

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 80
Vero Beach Fl
Thank you for your responses. I must admit my origanal post was ment to inflame controversy. While I will stick to my origanal thought that the Worrell boat should be the the biggest and baddest let me explain why. Since I watched the first Worrel tape I ever had the pleasure to catch in Michigan back in the mid eighties when they were running chutes on H-18s, N 5.8 and of course Randy's P-19 the Worrell was the cutting edge of men (or women) and machines. I wholeheartedly agree it is about the sailors...but it is also about the boats. The cat side of the the sport is more about the boat than any other venue in sailing. The last time the star boat had a really major change was back in about 1920 when they went from a gaff rigg to pin head. I think the open tech class may satisfy both sides. Lets build fast new light boats and make any crew weight a contender.


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