... so what got "shaved"? Switch from thick vinyl to thin mesh tramps? Batten material? And how does shaving that 20 lbs. affect class rules?

Please don`t get me wrong here guys, NOT dissing the Hobie 16, but although it is a "one-design" class, it HAS changed over the years. You would not take a 1979 H16 to a National Champs and hope to qualify for the Worlds. This is not a bad thing, you can`t expect things to stay the same forever, when folks are discovering new ways to do things stronger, lighter and cheaper. Perhaps a 2025 Hobie 16 will be all-carbon, weigh 85kg and have a solid wing sail, and hoist a parafoil kite for downwind .
But seriously, the hull construction method has changed(I believe SOME carbon ??), the rudders are much better than a 1979 boat came out with etc. Sails are better too.
Just to give you an idea of the differences, H16`s used to be built under license in Cape Town, they were good boats but the top SA guys all bought French boats, which dropped the bottom out of the market here. Some of the top guys would buy a French boat, but use bits from the South African platform (lighter aluminium), the SA mast and sails (which are about a square metre bigger ????).
I chatted to Sean Ferry just after he won the Worlds - said one key reason the other SA guys struggled to sail the supplied boats was because they sailed with SA sails in their build-up to Worlds, whereas he sailed with the sails supplied by the French H16 builder, so he was used to the sails, the guys who had sailed with SA sails all season could not get used to having "less power", they were a lot closer to him all season than they were at Worlds.
Although Hobie claim that they provide the closest One-design racing experience, it only really holds true if you`re all sailing the same year model, why else would the top guys replace their boat every 2-3 years ?
The Dart fleet is much closer to the pure OD concept - I bought a one-year old Dart to sail the Worlds, the guy who sold it to me needed cash, he then bought his hulls separately from crashed boats, found the other bits, had a spare mast lying around, bought some fairly well-used sails, and was leading the Worlds after 3 days, eventually finished 12th, while I found myself in 68th with his "new" boat. At the same event Johnny McGillivray sailed a faded red boat built in 1979 (not kidding) into 10th place (and he`s a Hobie sailor who had not sailed Darts before the Worlds )
One-design racing offers you the opportunity to all sail boats that are as close as possible to eachother, not even the Laser class can claim that all boats are identical.
The bottom line is that, by losing 20lbs, Hobie have embarked on a clever marketing strategy, ensuring all serious racers will buy new boats, which they would have done anyway. This will release a good number of used boats into the market, good for sailing, good for Hobie 16 class growth, but you have to accept that if you`re not on one of the new boats, you will have to sail a little bit harder to get to the top.

No Hobie sailors were harmed during the writing of this post - just my honest opinion.

Jeez, Steve - who pissed in your cereal? BTW, there is no carbon in the 16, except for aftermarket rudders.

To answer the original question:

In 1983, for the 1984 model year (before the H-16 became an ISAF International Class), Hobie Cat changed the hull contruction method, laminate schedule and hull/deck glue. The result was a 20 lb weight savings - mostly in resin. As any boatbuilder will tell you resin=$$$. They were making the boat cheaper to build while maintaining the strength.

The minimum weight hasn't changed in 23 years.

Steve's right in one respect - you would have a tough time doing well on a 27 year old boat in a Hobie 16 North Americans. You could put all the minor upgrades that have occurred in that time - rudders (which have always been open - you should see some of the beautiful wood rudders the Brazilians make), travellers (both main and jib), etc., etc., but you can't put a 16 on a diet to lose the 20+ lbs.

In addition, old boats get heavier over time as they soak up water.

On the other hand, I've qualified for the last 3 H-16 worlds on a 1998 platform. (In 2004, I broke down and bought new sails for it - everything else is original.)

There are very minor differences between the boats built in the US/Australia vs. the boats built in France. Mostly hardware. (For example - HC USA uses different port/starboard upper rudder castings and straight tiller arms. HCE uses identical upper rudder castings and bent tiller arms. Does this make a speed difference? I don't think so.)

As for the sails, they are theoretically cut from the same patterns. I'm sure there are minor differences, but to say that the provided boats at the SA Worlds suffered from "a lack of power" is just whining. Especially when the conditions were like this most of the time:

I read somewhere...thinking this forum, and wrote it down. This gentleman had been present at all or most US National weigh-ins and reported/recorded these "generalities" regarding H16 weight vs. years.

'83& pre 360 or more
'84-'85 320 (redline)
'86-'87 340
'88-'92 less than 385
'93& post 320

I don't recall his reasoning on '88 thru '92 boats.

The original (1970) class minimum was 340. Maybe when the boats were new they weighed 340 - 350, but try finding one that old that weighs less than 350 today. Ain't gonna happen.

As described above, in 1983, the boat was lightened 20 lbs and the class rules were changed so that the min weight was 320 lbs. These boats are easily identified by the red glue seam (redlines). I owned an 1984 model (bought new) that weighed 315 (after I took the lead out of the rear pylons).

After two years of production, and a lot of warranty claims for structural problems, HC began beefing up the structure and the weights crept up. (My '84 broke two pylons loose before I sold it in '97. I repaired both myself.)

Boats from '86 - early '90's weighed anywhere from 330 - 350. I owned an '89 Nationals boat that was a cow. It weighed 345. I ended up replacing the hulls with the ones from my '84.

Hobie Cat supplied boats for the Nationals until 1989, so there were no weigh-ins prior to 1990.

In 1989, the H-16 became an ISAF International Class, and the class rules became subject to ISAF control.

European boats were consistently weighing in lighter than the US boats during this time. In 1990, ISAF applied pressure to HC USA to make the boats conform to the class rule of 320 lbs.

Since the early '90's, US boats have weighed between 315 and 330 lbs. Some of that variation is in the aluminum (extrusion wall thickness). Having a tighter spec on the extrusions would make the boats prohibitively expensive. (Don't forget that these boats are made primarily for the recreational market.) The hulls are etched with their weight behind the rudder pin. Each hull weighs between 68 and 70 lbs.

My '98 weighed 317 when it was new ('98 Continentals, Rehoboth) and most recently weighed 320 ('04 North Americans, Syracuse).


(That's not my boat, but the rig used to weigh boats in Syracuse. Digital load cell = very accurate.)
There is no issue with the class rules in regards to weight.

Matt, you completely took me the wrong way there.
"Jeez, Steve - who pissed in your cereal? BTW, there is no carbon in the 16, except for aftermarket rudders. "
My first line, and last, clearly state the intention of my post (with a little humor), was just to provide some info based on what I`ve heard. Anything I wasn`t clear on, I put it that way, which is why my comment on carbon used in the hulls had ?? at the end. I had heard the French boats had carbon reinforcing at the beam junctions in the hulls, which would be a good idea to strengthen the boat where maximum loads occur. I did not say that they are making older boats obsolete by building carbon hulls, which we know is not happening. Why are you so agitated ? I re-read my post, correct me if I`m wrong but it was not insulting to the boat, class or sailors. I think all the Hobie-bashing on the forums is getting to you. Sorry if I offended. All boats have their strengths and weaknesses, and we should be able to discuss them openly without getting all upset. If you read the post on the ARC 27 on the open forum, you`ll see praise and criticism form different parties.
Yes, that pic you posted is of the qualifying rounds, which all the good sailors got through one way or another and subtleties in sail shape made no difference as long as you kept it pointing up - the difference is that the actual races that decided the winner were held in very light winds, so much so that a "race" consisted of a beat and a run, SAF, the shortest course possible. My point was that, in these conditions, guys who had practiced all year with more powerful sails, were slightly slower than Sean, as he had practiced with the same sails as used at the worlds, and could get more out of the boat in light winds than they could, whereas in the lead-up to the Worlds they were competitive with Sean, he blew them away in the last few races.(Willaim Edwards finished 21st I think, while beating Sean at SA Nationals).http://www.smoothsailing.co.za/hobie16nat05rslts.html

It`s not whining about having less power, when it is the opinion of the sailor who WON the Worlds about why he had the edge on the other SOUTH AFRICAN sailors, what would he have to whine about? As to why he beat everyone else, make up your own mind.


"The minimum weight hasn't changed in 23 years."
So what you`re saying is that Hobie only started building boats down to the class minimum weight a few years ago, there are hundreds of thousands of H16`s out there then that are not quite "one-design" ???
Matt, sorry if I offended you by stating my opinion, if you have read other posts in which H16`s are being unfairly criticised you might find my name to a post defending the boat - I crewed on one for many years and enjoyed the boat thoroughly, especially in a good Westerly in Port Elizabeth.
I was just trying to point out that you will find differences between any two Hobies, any two lasers, and any two anything elses out there, most of which (including a 20lb weight difference) the average sailor would not even notice, but the top sailors will most definitely.

My apologies, too Steve. I did get a little, um . . defensive there. Maybe a little too much coffee yesterday morning.

The starter of this thread seems to be trolling - he's the same guy who started the "Are A-Cats just overblown windsurfers?" thread in the main forum.

I got an 81' Tequilla Sunrise... or was it an 83'??? ...anyways, i think we are all able to agree the H16 is a great boat, quick for its size, good for any sailor (beginner or experienced...), and most importantly INSANELY fun. i was looking at the weights, and does this mean i need more weight to right my boat, especially solo? i have a righting bag, but is it possible for a skinny white kid to right a boat that heavy?

That might be my first boat!!!! Is the sail number 59508?

I was able to right it solo once but I think I lucked out with the right angle to the wind and a timely puff. A bag is probably the way to go.

no... i dont remember the numbers right now, i think it was 6... and i bought it from some lady in central CA. but it is a sturdy and durable boat

I sold it to a tile guy in Sunnyvale in '90. It was a solid boat that gave me and a lot of crews a great time.

If you accidentally run into an oil tanker because you were staring at the bikini beauty you talked into a sailing date, can I buy your tequila sails?

The starter of this thread seems to be trolling - he's the same guy who started the "Are A-Cats just overblown windsurfers?" thread in the main forum.

OK, I think you're STILL getting too much kaffe'. The A-cats thread was clearly tongue-in-cheek, ergo posted with a smiley.

OTOH, *this* thread was posted as a straightforward OBJECTIVE question, as should be clear from my initial post, not to mention the yellow '?' icon. If the "stretch" between the two is beyond your grasp, I can only suggest neural limbering exercises, and MORE SAILING. Always works for me.

In general, it's rather humorous when people get all hormonal and defensive about "their" brand of cat, as though the mfr. is sponsoring them, or sending them free sails (or better yet, free bikini models with their own half-harnesses... lol). Ain't no mfr. ever done that for me, so I'll tell you EXACTLY where their product is lacking... which, NOT coincidentally, is the purpose of these forums!

In short, you might need to chill... mellow... luff... roll with it. (Are you sure you're not a (*gasp*) closet POWERboater?) JUST KIDDING!


PS: Interesting info about hull weight stamped on stern.

That is not EXACTLY the purpose of these forums, but it is rather common for posters looking for some fun.