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by Frank N. 05/04/22 07:38 PM
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Trimming from the wire #79837
07/11/06 06:56 AM
07/11/06 06:56 AM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 443
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
bobcat Offline OP
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With the downhaul designed to be trimmed from the wire I want to ask how are you setup to facilatate this? Do you have the tail tied to your trapeze line. Or the sidestay? Do you have the loose ends bunjii'd into the front beam?



F16 Blade 716
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Re: Trimming from the wire [Re: bobcat] #79838
07/11/06 07:46 AM
07/11/06 07:46 AM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 465
Oxford, UK
pdwarren Offline
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On my Blade, I have the downhaul tied off to the jib sheet and simply looped around the side-stay. On previous boats, I've done something a bit more sophisticated by putting the DH through a block tied to the shroud. It then goes under the tramp to a cat's cradle of bunji to take up the slack. The tricky bit is arranging it so that it will take up enough slack. I do this by putting the DH through a floating block and then tieing the end back to the near side of the boat (e.g. to the shroud). The floating block is attached to a piece of bunji that goes to the far side of the boat, thruogh a block, to the near side of the boat, through another block and then to a floating block on the mirror-image arrangement on the other side. This means that you have approximately two boat widths of elastic with 1:2 purchase on the DH. This means it can take up a lot of slack.

I think Wouter has a very similar system and has posted a diagram in the past if the above isn't clear.

I haven't got round to sorting something out on the blade yet, not least because there's no gap between the tramp and the hulls, which makes routing the lines that much harder.

The system is great when working, but it's something of a pain to rig / de-rig.

The one that I'd like to get sorted is the mast rotation. I'd like a system that makes it easy to let it on and off completely, without adjusting the "trim" for when it's on. I heard that the Infusion has something like this, but I've not seen it in the flesh so I don't know how it works.

Paul

Re: Trimming from the wire [Re: pdwarren] #79839
07/11/06 08:20 AM
07/11/06 08:20 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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I have pics of the Infusion setup.

Tomorow or after that I will post them here on the forum

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Trimming from the wire [Re: pdwarren] #79840
07/11/06 08:32 AM
07/11/06 08:32 AM
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phill Offline

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Paul,
I'd prefer my quick release to be on the boom where both skipper and crew can easily get to it.
Then I also prefer my rotation to come off the boom.
People with rotation off the tramp can still put the quick release on the boom if they want it there.
It just means threading a short line through two sheaves when rigging.

Regards,
Phill


I know that the voices in my head aint real,
but they have some pretty good ideas.
There is no such thing as a quick fix and I've never had free lunch!

Re: Trimming from the wire [Re: phill] #79841
07/11/06 08:44 AM
07/11/06 08:44 AM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 465
Oxford, UK
pdwarren Offline
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The rotation on the Blade goes to the tramp (i.e. isn't attached to the boom at all). I did think of a way of putting a quick-release at the front, but haven't tried it out. I also considered a system to run it to the back beam - the crew's got enough to do when we're going round the marks.

Paul

Re: Trimming from the wire [Re: pdwarren] #79842
07/11/06 08:50 AM
07/11/06 08:50 AM
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Posts: 1,449
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phill Offline

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Paul,
Put it up the front and the crew will most likely have to operate it. Not so good for one up. Up the back and it is the skippers problem. Off the boom and either can do it.
Rotation can stay on the tramp. It is only the quick release.
Regards,
Phill


I know that the voices in my head aint real,
but they have some pretty good ideas.
There is no such thing as a quick fix and I've never had free lunch!

Re: Trimming from the wire [Re: pdwarren] #79843
07/11/06 09:47 PM
07/11/06 09:47 PM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 72
Florida, USA
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Gina_M Offline
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Florida, USA
Bruce,we keep the downhaul tied to the crew trap as it is the most convenient place for single or double-handing. The downhaul is typically used while going up wind when I'm on the trap. I drape it over my leg in a blow so that I can quickly adjust it. I can't stand it when it is tied to the side-stay because one end is fixed and it is harder to grab in a rush. Matt keeps it on the crew trap even when singling because if it is connected to the skipper's trap it is just one more line to get tangled on when going in or out.

Have fun practicing.

-G


Falcon F16 crew
Infusion quick rotation setup [Re: Wouter] #79844
07/12/06 05:35 AM
07/12/06 05:35 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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Wouter  Offline
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See here the quick rotation setup of the Nacra Infusion F18

[Linked Image]



Here the planned Typhoon quick rotation release system (project is halve finished right now :

[Linked Image]


If the single block setup doesn't work out as planned then I will add a second block at the base of the mast.


Next, the way I run my downhaul lines ; The red and part of the blue is underneath my trampoline.

I got enough slack in the system to work the downhaul from the trapeze, but when not in use the line is strung just taught, giving a clean deck layout and not foiling up other lines like the spi sheet. I have the line run through SS rings that are attached to my shrouds but I just saw a friend using very cheap and lightweight aluminium clips that mountain climbers use. I think he said he payed a few bucks for 30 of them. These speed up rigging considerable as you can just click the lines to the staystay instead of having to run them through rings.

Red line is of course a bungee

[Linked Image]


I hope this helps.
Wouter

Attached Files
Last edited by Wouter; 07/12/06 06:03 AM.
Re: Infusion quick rotation setup [Re: Wouter] #79845
07/12/06 05:56 AM
07/12/06 05:56 AM
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phill Offline

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Wouter ,
That was basically what I had in mind for tramp rotation systems but with the sheave at the bottom of the mast included.
Also considering an exit block in the boom with light shock
cord inside to pull in the extra line. Probably not needed but would look very neat.
The Infusion looks like a bit of a mess.

Regards,
Phill


I know that the voices in my head aint real,
but they have some pretty good ideas.
There is no such thing as a quick fix and I've never had free lunch!

Re: Infusion quick rotation setup [Re: phill] #79846
07/12/06 06:01 AM
07/12/06 06:01 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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Wouter  Offline
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I made the pictures after a heavy storm and so there are lines there that normally aren't there. In winds like the storm everything that isn't well secured will either come loose or wear itself through.

When sailing the setup is alot cleaners

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Infusion quick rotation setup [Re: Wouter] #79847
07/12/06 07:53 AM
07/12/06 07:53 AM
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,669
Melbourne, Australia
Tornado_ALIVE Offline
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Melbourne, Australia
Quote
See here the quick rotation setup of the Nacra Infusion F18

[Linked Image]


AAAARRRRHH.......... The sand....... Must look away <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />


Re: Trimming from the wire [Re: bobcat] #79848
07/12/06 08:26 AM
07/12/06 08:26 AM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 954
Mumbles Y.C Wales U.K
Mark P Offline
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Mark P  Offline
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Mumbles Y.C Wales U.K
**** ups. I will leave out the extra complication of altering controls whilst racing untill I have totally mastered my boat handling skills in all conditions.
Apart from "ME" I think the most important controls of all are Mast Rake and Mainsheet. Get these right and you're on a winner, controlling the other controls in my opinion just slows you up.


MP*MULTIHULLS
Re: Trimming from the wire [Re: Mark P] #79849
07/12/06 08:43 AM
07/12/06 08:43 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
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North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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There is no arguing with the guy who just won the nation cup sailing they way he did.

I must admit that I also don't adjust the outhaul during racing. It is pre-start if anything and mostly even "just a before leaving the beach" adjustment.

When sailing solo I adjust the downhaul pre-start and maybe during the first leg upwind but then I leave it alone mostly. When double handing I use it more often, but mostly because we have more hands on board that can do different stuff simultaniously.

Mast rotation however is a different story. While I don't adjust it often, it is definately the control I do adjust most often. Sometimes when singlehanding I use the same setting all around the course in say light to medium winds. But otherwise I do really adjust it when going from upwind to downwind and visa versa. I actually have to or you can see the top of mast bend away to leeward VERY far. and that bleeds drive like nobodies business. When singlehanding this is acceptable as you are probably much overpowered anyway, but when doublehanding you really want to maximum drive under spinnaker. If not support the top against spi loads.

On the superwing mast the mast rotation control is very important and can make or break your speed.
And that is exactly why I'm looking at the quick system. That will allow me to fine-tune to optimal upwind performance once and then only switch to downwind rotation and back again by an alternative system.

I agree with Mark that you are far better off sailing well then having all controls lead outward so they can be controlled from the trapeze. On my boat the controls that can be adjusted from the trapeze (when double trapped) are only the downhaul, mainsheet and the main traveller. When single trapped the skipper can also adjust jib and mast rotation. All the others are only beach-based or pre-start adjustments. And this seems to work well enough for my way of sailing.

I also don't have complex spi systems (like double line or cleat on mast setups) or jib downhaul. I don't even have a jib traveller line.

Mark is absolutely right that simple is best.

Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 07/12/06 08:48 AM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Infusion quick rotation setup [Re: Tornado_ALIVE] #79850
07/12/06 10:49 AM
07/12/06 10:49 AM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 3,528
Looking for a Job, I got credi...
scooby_simon Offline
Hull Flying, Snow Sliding....
scooby_simon  Offline
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Looking for a Job, I got credi...
Quote
Quote
See here the quick rotation setup of the Nacra Infusion F18

[Linked Image]


AAAARRRRHH.......... The sand....... Must look away <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />


Me too....


F16 - GBR 553 - SOLD

I also talk sport here
Re: Trimming from the wire [Re: Mark P] #79851
07/12/06 11:10 AM
07/12/06 11:10 AM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 72
Florida, USA
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Gina_M Offline
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Florida, USA
Mark, that is great if you don't have to worry about the downhaul. My skipper and I are very light and use the downhaul in the big blows. We release the downhaul for downwind legs and play it for the upwind blows. Seems to keep us flatter and faster. Everyone is different though, don't you think? -G


Falcon F16 crew
Re: Trimming from the wire [Re: Mark P] #79852
07/12/06 12:24 PM
07/12/06 12:24 PM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 62
K
KMarshack Offline
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K

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Posts: 62
Could not disagree more. After sailing the wing mast in the A Class for three years, and chasing sailors like Pete Melvin, Ben Hall, Lars Guck, Bob Hodges, etc,etc, I have found you cannot sail these boats without continual adjustment of both the downhaul and rotation upwind. You need power off the line or you will end up in the second row. After that, as the boat accelerates, it is all about reducing drag for max speed. You do this by using the controls. If you have to luff up to keep from flying too high, you need to adjust both settings. If you are not having to let off some main occasionally, you need power. I cannot cleat my main from the wire, and most top sailors do not. You need to learn how to make these adjustments while sailing full on. There is a reson Gina does this, and they seem to win their fair share of reces.
Ken

Re: Trimming from the wire [Re: Gina_M] #79853
07/12/06 02:10 PM
07/12/06 02:10 PM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 443
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
bobcat Offline OP
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Thanks Gina and welcome to the F16 forums. I am pleased that you broke "radio silence" to answer my post.



F16 Blade 716
Re: Trimming from the wire [Re: KMarshack] #79854
07/13/06 07:05 AM
07/13/06 07:05 AM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,121
Eastern NC, USA
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tshan Offline
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Quote
I have found you cannot sail these boats without continual adjustment of both the downhaul and rotation upwind.


Ken,
Kudos for the Alter cup qualifying.

Can you clarify something for me? When you say "continual adjustment", do you mean you play the downhaul/rotator in puffs/lulls (going upwind) OR is it more a few times a leg adjustment?

My background is 2-up racing and the crew played the downhaul in puffs and heavy wave action (very much like Gina_M described). I've been racing 1-up lately and cannot figure out a way to do this (tiller and mainsheet/traveller is about the best I can do). I do adjust the downhaul on upwind legs, but not specific to puffs and lulls - only generally when I feel over or under powered.

Make sense?

And for the record, I cleat my main <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />


Tom
Re: Trimming from the wire [Re: KMarshack] #79855
07/13/06 07:42 AM
07/13/06 07:42 AM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 954
Mumbles Y.C Wales U.K
Mark P Offline
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Mumbles Y.C Wales U.K
Hi Ken you are correct about trimming the A Class continually as they are a total different animal to the F16. Glen Ashby is quoted as saying that on average he adjusts his downhall 10 times up a beat. However, Glen probably sails for over 300 days in a year whilst I would be lucky to sail 40 days in a year. Therefore I find it best just to set the controls to a happy medium and just sail to my capabilities without the worry of too much, too little of this or that control.


MP*MULTIHULLS
Re: Trimming from the wire [Re: Mark P] #79856
07/13/06 08:49 AM
07/13/06 08:49 AM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 465
Oxford, UK
pdwarren Offline
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I think that's probably fair - losing boat speed just once through lack of attention whilst trying to adjust something probably cancels out the benefits of constantly tweaking it.

At the last race in Mumbles my arms were killing me (I know, need to get to the gym...) so I just left the main cleated and made use of the 12:1 on the downhaul (and a bit more luffing in the puffs). Worked pretty well.

Paul

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