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maximum speed from minimum wind #85495
09/25/06 01:37 PM
09/25/06 01:37 PM
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 440
Graham, NC
WindyHillF20 Offline OP
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Graham, NC
What are your best go fast techniques for light wind? How do you prep the boat? Wax it or sand it? how about the daggers and rudders. Keep windward dagger and rudder up? Give me all the secrets for going fast in a lake. Thanks

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Re: maximum speed from minimum wind [Re: WindyHillF20] #85496
09/25/06 02:34 PM
09/25/06 02:34 PM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,114
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MauganN20 Offline
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move around gently and gracefully on the boat if you have to move at all. Maintain as much momentum as you can, be light on the tiller. Get forward and get the sterns out of the water.


Don't worry too much about hull prep.

Re: maximum speed from minimum wind [Re: WindyHillF20] #85497
09/25/06 03:23 PM
09/25/06 03:23 PM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 308
Reno NV
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Rhino1302 Offline
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Reno NV
Around here if the wind is light it's very shifty. Being in the right wind (and trimmed for that wind) is far more important than boat set-up. I find that just reacting quickly to a wind shift will often get you a few boat lengths on the competition.

I rarely raise a board in light air. I figure that when you are going slow you need all the lift you can get. Also if you are constantly changing points of sail, the disruption from moving about and futzing with the board will cancel out the decrease in drag. I don't raise a rudder either.

MauganN20's points about getting your weight forward, not disturbing the boat by moving about and being light on the helm are also very important.

Finally, to compete well in light air you have to practice in light air. Not many people have the patience to do that. But those that do are almost always at the front of the pack when the wind shuts off, dispite all the griping about "unfair conditions".

Re: maximum speed from minimum wind [Re: MauganN20] #85498
09/25/06 04:43 PM
09/25/06 04:43 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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Rather flat sails are fast. Sails can easily be too full and actually hurt your speed while you are thinking that full is good because you need all the power you can get. So don't do that. Keep speed up any way you can. If you drop of the groove and loose apparent wind then you have to accellerate up all over again and that is slow.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: maximum speed from minimum wind [Re: WindyHillF20] #85499
09/25/06 05:07 PM
09/25/06 05:07 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 248
Colorado
SteveT Offline
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Colorado
All of the previous comments are good.

When going upwind, we get the crew forward onto the leeward hull while I sit in the middle to make every attempt to get the windward hull out of the water. It's amazing how little wind it talks to lift the hull and how much lift and speed you can gain when this happens.

Downwind we each get out on a hull and get the sterns out of the water. Keeping the boat moving is paramount. If you stall, getting going again is brutal, but I've also found that you can go a bit deeper as the apparent wind isn't very far forward.

One other trick: When jibing, give the mainsail a big pump when it comes over to snap the battens over and push the boat back up to speed. The same goes for tacking, but roll the boat as much as possible, then yank the boom or sheets to snap the battens and give the boat a boost.


H-20 #896
Re: maximum speed from minimum wind [Re: SteveT] #85500
09/25/06 05:53 PM
09/25/06 05:53 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 829
Charleston, SC
NCSUtrey Offline
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Charleston, SC
From my training session with Olympic sailor Robbie Daniels, he told me that he never saw an advantage to the crew going to the leeward hull in light air. Stay forward on the boat and maybe a little central, yes, but I don't see any advantage in sending crew to the leeward hull.


Trey
Re: maximum speed from minimum wind [Re: WindyHillF20] #85501
09/25/06 06:03 PM
09/25/06 06:03 PM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,658
Florida Suncoast, Dunedin Caus...
catman Offline
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Florida Suncoast, Dunedin Caus...
In very light-flat conditions a boat that weighs a little more can have an advantage. Once you have the boat moving it won't slow down in the lulls as fast as a lighter boat.

Lay down, keep as flat on the tramp or hull as possible. Look at your boat and find things to make smaller to reduce windage,drag.

So bring the case of beer and ice, keep your head down and have fun.


Have Fun
Re: maximum speed from minimum wind [Re: NCSUtrey] #85502
09/25/06 06:05 PM
09/25/06 06:05 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 248
Colorado
SteveT Offline
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Colorado
Quote
I don't see any advantage in sending crew to the leeward hull


Maybe you misunderstood what he was trying to teach you. Try it sometime. If you can help the windward hull out of the water, you will be faster.


H-20 #896
Re: maximum speed from minimum wind [Re: SteveT] #85503
09/25/06 06:21 PM
09/25/06 06:21 PM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 308
Reno NV
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Rhino1302 Offline
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Reno NV
Even if you can't get the windward hull out of the water you still need to get those sterns out of the water, and the logistics seem to work out best with the crew on the leward bow and the skipper just forward of the crossbar on the windward hull.

Re: maximum speed from minimum wind [Re: Rhino1302] #85504
09/25/06 06:27 PM
09/25/06 06:27 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 248
Colorado
SteveT Offline
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Colorado
Quote
the logistics seem to work out best with the crew on the leward bow and the skipper just forward of the crossbar on the windward hull.


I should be more specific when I say that the skipper sits "in the middle." I usually sit on, or as close to the front crossbar as possible and as close to the mast as possible. Getting the sterns up is key. My crew weighs 175 pounds and can easily get the sterns clear with me on the crossbar.


H-20 #896
Re: maximum speed from minimum wind [Re: SteveT] #85505
09/25/06 07:08 PM
09/25/06 07:08 PM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,147
Bay of Islands, NZ
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warbird Offline
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Bay of Islands, NZ
I agree with previous. I have never noticed an advantage in light air in trying to lift hull. Makes it harder to judge the boat and draws energy and concentration from what matters.
Wouter is right. Flat sails work better.
DO NOT OVER SHEET TRYING TO GRAB WIND>you will stop.
Steady quiet movement if at all. sit on cross bar and get the sterns out of water.
Decide on these tactics before the race and DONT change them.. the wrong choice will work better than trying three different things and being right for a third of the race.. stay quiet and win.
Watch wind carefully, don't get lazy and board with that.
Recently I caught a breeze because I was watching and waiting.... the lightest rise in pressure. The boat right on my tail who had gotten board got home an hour later because that little puff was the bridge to a lift which he didn't make.
If the crew on another boat moves about and slows once when you do not you WILL pull away, so do not leap to follow anothers moves. Sail your own race. IF you are neck and neck with another do not change about boat unless your tactical decision is very certain and know the change WILL cost you and you have to make a strong advantage to make the risk worth it. If you make a move be VERY steady in it and hopefully the other crew will be rougher when following you and that will make a gain for you.
Somehow decide that this form of racing is as intersting as bashing through a chop. Don't listen to others who say it was 'anybodys" day. They just don't have what it takes.

Re: maximum speed from minimum wind [Re: SteveT] #85506
09/25/06 07:25 PM
09/25/06 07:25 PM

A
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Invest in a Squaretop. The extra area up top made a BIG difference on my 17.

Doug

Re: maximum speed from minimum wind [Re: WindyHillF20] #85507
09/25/06 08:21 PM
09/25/06 08:21 PM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 606
League City, TX
flumpmaster Offline
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League City, TX
On modern boats (e.g. F18 or N20) a bunch of downhaul to open up the top of the sail and allow more sheet tension that running minimal downhaul is faster in the really light stuff. (Flat sails - like Wouter said).

Plus what has already been said - weight up front, move gently, be smooth, keep in the groove, don't give up.

Another good move is to watch the puffs coming down the lake carefully and get in the right place at the right time, and when going down wind, if you are in a puff, gybe to stay in it.

Chris.


Dave Ingram is my president. tcdyc rules
Re: maximum speed from minimum wind [Re: Rhino1302] #85508
09/26/06 01:40 AM
09/26/06 01:40 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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That is what I'm finding as well. Both crew on opposite hulls and far forward.

That spi pole makes for a nice foot rest.

wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: maximum speed from minimum wind [Re: Wouter] #85509
09/26/06 06:38 AM
09/26/06 06:38 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 829
Charleston, SC
NCSUtrey Offline
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Robbie was quite clear in telling us that sending crew leeward in light wind was pointless when going upwind. I'm not going to argue with him...his record is much better than mine, and most everyone else here as well.


Trey
Re: maximum speed from minimum wind [Re: NCSUtrey] #85510
09/26/06 06:56 AM
09/26/06 06:56 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline
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There are grades of light wind, and this might differ from boat to boat and different windspeeds. If you are in doubt, arrange for a boat to follow behind you and look at your transoms. You definately want the water to exit both transoms cleanly. On the Tornado in the really light stuff, crew is sent to lee bow. If both sit on the same hull, the transom will dig in.

Re: maximum speed from minimum wind [Re: NCSUtrey] #85511
09/26/06 07:09 AM
09/26/06 07:09 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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That maybe so, but I still do prefer to have the crew at the leeward bow manhandling the jib or holding the mast rotation firm. This way the crew is also out of my way (and the tiller/mainsheet I'm holding) and is still capable of adjusting the trim of the rig when need be (something he can not do when he is ahead of me on the luff hull).

I see therefor many points of reason to having the crew on the leeward hull. The only downside is can't do roll tacking very well like that. On the other hand, in some really difficult conditions I have also remained in my spot after a tack/gybe and continued sailing like that. Sure makes "NOT rocking the boat about" alot easier to accomplish. You can get really smooth tacks that way.

Maybe it makes Robbie slower to having a crew on the leeward hull but it certainly makes ME faster and that is why I do it.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: maximum speed from minimum wind [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #85512
09/26/06 07:10 AM
09/26/06 07:10 AM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,718
St Petersburg FL
Robi Offline
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St Petersburg FL
So flatter sails in light wind using downhaul is fast?
Same applies in a windier conditions? So the downhaul should barely be slacked at all?

I am kinda confused now.

Re: maximum speed from minimum wind [Re: Robi] #85513
09/26/06 07:14 AM
09/26/06 07:14 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
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North-West Europe


A crude summary.


Really light stuff : downhaul on

medium winds : downhaul more loose

heavy winds : downhaul back on again.


Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: maximum speed from minimum wind [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #85514
09/26/06 07:18 AM
09/26/06 07:18 AM
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 267
Switzerland
alutz Offline
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Switzerland
It is importand that the boat stays calm, to keep the flow attached to the sails. No slapping in the waves. Every movement of the sails and the mast hurts. Our 18HT is very sensitive to movements due it's light weight and the tall mast.

I found for my self, that when there is a small ground swell running, the boat stays much calmer when we are sailing on one hull. We do everything to stay on one hull when the boat shakes. We sometimes even trapeze to leeward to avoid the nerve breaking slaping of the windward hull.

I also read in some A-Cat go fast manual, that the drag is increased by 10% when sailing on two hulls. I don't know if thats true or not.

When there are no waves and maybe some small puffs, I agree that it is faster having both on the windward side. It's not good when the crew has to climb up to the other upper side, to keep the boat down.

Of course, the stern MUST be allways out of the water.
Keep your eyes on the mainsail lech tell tales. They should fly for around halve the time. Over sheeting is very slow.


Andi, Switzerland
Team OST
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