Announcements
New Discussions
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Hop To
Page 1 of 2 1 2
C-Class Catamarans #85691
09/28/06 12:53 PM
09/28/06 12:53 PM
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 613
New Hampshire, USA
windswept Offline OP
addict
windswept  Offline OP
addict

Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 613
New Hampshire, USA
There seem to be a few different threads going on right now concerning the C-Class. While it has had a few slow or dormant years, it has always been at the forefront of development classes. If you look around at the inovation in multihull sailing over the past 30-40 years, you can find clear inovations, theoretical and pratical changes and evolutions that have sprung directly from this class.

There are many arguements as to why the class struggles. We all know that cost is the mostprohibitive issue, but beyond that is the wing sail itself. That in function, puts off many people. Having sail once on a soft rigged C, it was one of the most exciting sails that I have had. This was a late 60's or early 70's boat.

If there is to be greater interest in the class, one possible avenue of approach is to keep the development C's as one side of the class and then maybe look at what Mitch Booth and Partner did with the Ultimate 40's. This might help spurn interest in the class even though many purists would probably balk at the idea. But if the idea is to give promotion and visibilty to C's, it might work.


Tom Siders
A-Cat USA-79
Tornado US775
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: C-Class Catamarans [Re: windswept] #85692
09/28/06 02:15 PM
09/28/06 02:15 PM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 806
Toronto, Ontario
pitchpoledave Offline
old hand
pitchpoledave  Offline
old hand

Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 806
Toronto, Ontario
Interesting idea..You could just take the f18 rules and scale them up..Maybe make the rules around an existing boat design..

Or, just create a new class based around the rc30 because there are already a bunch of boats out there.
And then you need a sponsor to put up some cash for an event.

Re: C-Class Catamarans [Re: pitchpoledave] #85693
09/28/06 06:31 PM
09/28/06 06:31 PM
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 613
New Hampshire, USA
windswept Offline OP
addict
windswept  Offline OP
addict

Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 613
New Hampshire, USA
There are a bunch of rc30's out there, but the thought behind this is to create more awareness and visibility for the C-Class. You could scale up an f18, but it might be more appropriate to mold an existing C-Class such as Cognito, PL6 or another C. Since, Cogniti seems to be far ahead of the curve at the moment in design and performance, it would be the ideal boat to mold from. If you look at how the Ultimate 40's are designed as a one design class, out of the box, you could limit development costs and create a visible class. These would be soft rigged boats and in no way looked at as setting a new standard for the class or limiting its development. Just an option to put some C's in the hands of us "weekend warriors" while giving much needed visibility and growth to this class.

Let the development continue, establish the C-Class series specifically for those boats, but use the "Ultimate-C" to give another aspect to the class.

I looked closely at building a C-Class in the late 80's and early 90's but opted to build and race a Tornado instead. Though my Tornado was never realy at the competitive end of the scale, it has provided me with many years of sailing fun, excitement and satisfaction. I chose to build a Tornado for the following reasons; cost, accessability, fleet racing and handling. I could easily transport the Tornado, set it up and sail it locally against other Tornados. There was at that time a very active local fleet in Higham, MA. Though it does not exist and Tornado sailing is down around the country, it was the right choice for me at the time. Now I am entering what I believe is a growing and thriving class. Tha A-Class. The development in this class is nothing short of spectacular. With the A-2 in full production at M&M after Pete and Jeremy's great design proccess, you are seeing great growth and US sailors competitive, if not even dominate at a world level. Sailors like Lars Guck, Pete Melvin, Pease Glaser, Phil Kinder, Ben Hall and too many others to mention, competing at a world class level. The boats and development are exciting and the class is growing.

I do not know how feasible it would be to spark growth in C's, but if possible, it would be great to see these boats back in the forefront of develpoment and exciting to see them race.


Tom Siders
A-Cat USA-79
Tornado US775
Re: C-Class Catamarans [Re: windswept] #85694
09/29/06 02:02 AM
09/29/06 02:02 AM
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 307
maui
jollyrodgers Offline
enthusiast
jollyrodgers  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 307
maui
hello,
from what i have read the Cogito isn't really far ahead of the curve, but they did win. just yesterday i ran across my copy of boatbuilder magazine with the article that cogito guys wrote about their construction techniques. they used the same molds from Patient Lady which i think is an 80's hull shape. they just cut down the freeboard and raised the beams up to compensate. the wing is where the real magic is...if you want to call it that.
you will prolly find these days that a soft sailed 25 would fly a spi. and do best w/ a hull shape designed for a spi. this is just a theory tho, since it appears the 60's hull shape of the Tornado does fine with a spi. it would prolly be a 3 person boat as well. still a good project for those with time and money to spare.

Re: C-Class Catamarans [Re: windswept] #85695
09/29/06 04:04 AM
09/29/06 04:04 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,449
P
phill Offline
veteran
phill  Offline
veteran
P

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,449
Folks,

As much as I have and still do admire the C class and those involved the Class has affectively developed itself into extinction. The move to the solid sail makes it an impratical boat. So you will never see them in numbers.

If you created a C Class MK2. Ban the solid sail and leave the working sail area at 300sq ft or maybe move it up to 30sq metres and add a 30sg metre spinnaker. Leave the hull length at 26ft so it is not too difficult to move around and limit the beam and mast lengths for the same reason.
Set the min platform weight at a weight that would enable the boat to be built from ply with a layer of 200gm glass either side. This woud enable a competative boat to be built without it being essential to go to super expensive methods and materials. Not that they would be built from ply just that using this as a benchmark will inherently limit the need for very expensive methods and people could still enter the class from their backyards should they desire.

I'd leave the crew at two people.

I think there would be people out there that would get a lot of fun out of such a project, whether building, sailing or just suporting.

Regards,
Phill


I know that the voices in my head aint real,
but they have some pretty good ideas.
There is no such thing as a quick fix and I've never had free lunch!

Re: C-Class Catamarans [Re: phill] #85696
09/29/06 04:55 AM
09/29/06 04:55 AM
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11
B
BigC Offline
stranger
BigC  Offline
stranger
B

Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11
Phil you are so right we need to move away from the wings the cost and complexity have effectivly killed the class.
Its about time the class changed the rules to give soft sailed traditionally rigged boats a look in, allowing soft sailed boats more sail area and a kite has got to be the way to go and am sure would revitalise interest.
I am not saying ban the wing rigs but give the rest of us more sail area to play with

My own C "Emma Hamilton" is what i believe a modern C-Class should be [Linked Image]
[image]
[Linked Image]
50ft rig with 500 sq ft of sail and an 800sq ft asymetric kite <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
awesome to sail and prob capable of giving the modern boats something to think about around an olympic style course

Re: C-Class Catamarans [Re: BigC] #85697
09/29/06 06:42 AM
09/29/06 06:42 AM
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,226
Atlanta
bvining Offline
veteran
bvining  Offline
veteran

Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,226
Atlanta
You guys are talking about changing the CClass rules? Good luck. The class is enjoying a new syndicate who appears to be competitive.

I think it would be easier to create a new class than try to get the CClass guys to change the rules.

Bill

Re: C-Class Catamarans [Re: bvining] #85698
09/29/06 07:12 AM
09/29/06 07:12 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,449
P
phill Offline
veteran
phill  Offline
veteran
P

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,449
Bill,
I wouldn't think anyone would change the C class rules.
More like use them as a model for a new rule set that would
put a similar type of boat on the water that would be more accessable.
I don't see that it would detract from the current C class because not many people get the opportunity to be involved in the C class in it's current form.

If set up right it could be a place for C class enthusiasts that would like to be involved but otherwise just can't afford too.
The current C class would stay in tact and hopefully get even more attention.

Regards,
Phill


I know that the voices in my head aint real,
but they have some pretty good ideas.
There is no such thing as a quick fix and I've never had free lunch!

Re: C-Class Catamarans [Re: phill] #85699
09/29/06 11:09 AM
09/29/06 11:09 AM
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 613
New Hampshire, USA
windswept Offline OP
addict
windswept  Offline OP
addict

Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 613
New Hampshire, USA
I am not talking about either changing the C-Class rules or impeding its development. What I am suggesting is to use an existing C-Class to make production molds from which to build accessable boats from, rig them with soft rigs and make them more accessable to others. The hope is to put them in the spotlight. Using a format similar to the Ultimate 40 concept, creating racing venues and splashing it around in the media. These events could run in conjuncture with legitimate C-Class racing and thus allow both to be on display in a very public forum. I know that there was racing in Newport this past weeks, but have only heard whispers about the results. I had hoped that there would have been more follow-up on the outcome of the event. Nothing much has even been posted here by the Toronto Team.

Back to the thought though. The C-Class is expensive and the wing sails difficult for the average sailor to use, much less take care of. Though I like the concept, its use and the speeds that are attained with them, they are not practical from an everyday sailing standpoint.

Lying the boat down on its side, derigging after each sail, storing it covered and out of the wheather and so on. Just not any easy item to use, take care of and so-on. You get the point.

So my thought still is to create a boat the the platform intitially is a production model and probably one design. As to whether development above the platform takes place or not is something that I just have not thought out enough. I think that the Ultimate 40's are a pretty strict and controlled one design with parameters on hulls, mast, sails, rigging and so on. I know Marstrom built at least one of the boats and maybe all of them. As to the sails, probably one maker again, just do not know.

If you take this as a concept designed to put 25' cats out there racing, with easier to handle rigs and the 2 person crew, then I believe you would have something exciting.

Again, combining them with the development C's in a regatta where you have each type of boat showcased, you could have a great event. The develpoment C's racing against each other and the "one-design" C's as the other part of the regatta.

Honestly, I am not trying to create controversy here, just thinking aloud about how to bring more focus and visibility to a class that I would hate to see fade away. The whole controversy surrounding the "Little America's Cup" stemmed from the lack of activity within the class for so many years and setting up the race with F18HT's. I think it was the wrong move and strongly believe that the C-Class are the only boat that should be sailed in that event. Development C's that is, not the ones I am mentioning. This was started as a development class, should remain that and the LAC should represent that aspect of the class. It also holds to the original Deed of Gift for the event and mirrors the intent of the AC itself.


Tom Siders
A-Cat USA-79
Tornado US775
Re: C-Class Catamarans [Re: windswept] #85700
09/29/06 01:27 PM
09/29/06 01:27 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mark Schneider  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Just curious Currently built are:

We have a range of high profile Maxi Cats which set trans ocean records. Obviously the goal is to set ocean records.

We have the five Volvo 40 catamrans that race in port. ..The goal was to develop a Gran Prix cirucit that paid the cat racers from the promotional dollars generated.

We have the Lake Garda cats ... not sure exactly how they compare but they are big and expensive and race in a gran prix buoys and distance circuit. Not sure what their goal is.

We have at least three 5 year old or older C Cats that race with hard rigs. The goal is to push the technology!

We have the Tornado Olympic fleet. The goal is to test the best cat sailors in the world in a three sailed cat.

Wwe have an Internatonal F18 fleet. The goal is to provide a highly competitive and afordable racing circuit.

Why do you see the need for a single non spin 25 foot long racing class. What would be your goal? I don't see one that is unique and requires a solution in this day and age.

Take Care
Mark


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: C-Class Catamarans [Re: Mark Schneider] #85701
09/29/06 02:43 PM
09/29/06 02:43 PM
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 613
New Hampshire, USA
windswept Offline OP
addict
windswept  Offline OP
addict

Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 613
New Hampshire, USA
My only goal is to wonder if there is something that can be done to put the c-class into a more visible position. Not to create a new class, only to develop debate that might lead to some idea that helps get c-class cats more exposure, involvement and initiate further development.


Tom Siders
A-Cat USA-79
Tornado US775
Re: C-Class Catamarans [Re: windswept] #85702
09/29/06 09:39 PM
09/29/06 09:39 PM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 164
I
I20RI Offline
member
I20RI  Offline
member
I

Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 164
The whole point of the C class is to bring cutting edge developmemt to the table. If you want to work on boathandling and tactics, than sail F 18. If you want to be an engineer and push technology than go C class. If you want both than sail an A cat and if you wnat straight line speed in the widest variety of conditions get a 20 footer with a spin. But creating a new class or changing the nature of the c class seems unrealistic. Look what happened to the ht 18. Cool boat, good sailors, no interest, dead class.

Re: C-Class Catamarans [Re: Mark Schneider] #85703
09/30/06 09:08 AM
09/30/06 09:08 AM
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 613
New Hampshire, USA
windswept Offline OP
addict
windswept  Offline OP
addict

Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 613
New Hampshire, USA
Actually, I own and sail both a 20' Tornado and a Waterat A Class Cat. It does not stop the interest in seeing C's get a greater visibility.


Tom Siders
A-Cat USA-79
Tornado US775
Re: C-Class Catamarans [Re: windswept] #85704
09/30/06 06:24 PM
09/30/06 06:24 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,049
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Timbo  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,049
Sebring, Florida.
How about developing a cross breed of the hard wing and soft sail, sort of like an inflatable ribed wing shaped sail or one with more battens that would hold camber in both directions at once, thus making a "wing" type sail out of mylar type sailcloth, that could easily be taken down and stored every night. I picture like the wing of an ultra light aircraft that uses battens in dacron cloth with a tube spar at the leading edge. Has anyone ever tried that? You could use the same hulls and use the cheaper, easier wing for practice, then use the real expensive wing only for the actual regattas. That way you could all race as a fleet with the cheap set up before you blow all your dough on the real wing.


Blade F16
#777
Re: C-Class Catamarans [Re: Timbo] #85705
09/30/06 09:52 PM
09/30/06 09:52 PM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,307
Asuncion, Paraguay
Luiz Offline
veteran
Luiz  Offline
veteran

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,307
Asuncion, Paraguay
Quote
How about developing a cross breed of the hard wing and soft sail...


IMHO the challenge of making a practical wing is the next step in this area. Wings are faster than soft sails and evolution goes in the direction of more speed, not backwards, towards popularity.
Nevertheless, foils are simpler and cheaper than wings, so they should be developed before.


Luiz
Re: C-Class Catamarans [Re: windswept] #85706
10/01/06 02:15 PM
10/01/06 02:15 PM
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 307
maui
jollyrodgers Offline
enthusiast
jollyrodgers  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 307
maui
there used to be 2 divisions of 18 squares.
maybe c cats could do that. the soft version w/ a spi. may actually get around the course sooner in some conditions.
when we sailed against wild turkey, the scaled down c cat, winged 18square it was incredible to see it destroy the tornadoes to windward, but it wasn't performing that well downwind.

the reason i said 3 man is because the H21 was a 3 man class. there would be plenty of room for 3, and strong winds would certainly warrant a 3rd person on the trapeze. also i think 3 people could reright the boat in a good breeze.
overall there aren't enough cat sailors in the world, so another type of cat will just dillute the existing classes. there are fewer people with money for cats now that the middle class is disappearing.
on another note, foils are promising, but so are these kites that the guys are using these days. there have been tests showing the kite (no mast) made a prindle19 point better than one w/ a stock rig.

Re: C-Class Catamarans [Re: Mark Schneider] #85707
10/01/06 02:33 PM
10/01/06 02:33 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Rolf_Nilsen  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Quote

We have the Tornado Olympic fleet. The goal is to test the best cat sailors in the world in a three sailed cat.

Three sailed cat? Do you mean a cat with three sails, or??

Quote

Why do you see the need for a single non spin 25 foot long racing class. What would be your goal? I don't see one that is unique and requires a solution in this day and age.


Does there have to be a goal to a class? What is wrong with just sailing/racing cool and fast boats, which you also can build parts for yourself?

Re: C-Class Catamarans [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #85708
10/01/06 05:12 PM
10/01/06 05:12 PM
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 613
New Hampshire, USA
windswept Offline OP
addict
windswept  Offline OP
addict

Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 613
New Hampshire, USA
Having two divisions within the class is what I was suggesting. Not a different class, not changing the rules for C-class, but having a soft rig division with spi that might be more affordable and attractive to those who would like the opportunity to sail a C without the complications and expense of a rigid wing sail.


Tom Siders
A-Cat USA-79
Tornado US775
Re: C-Class Catamarans [Re: windswept] #85709
10/02/06 07:48 PM
10/02/06 07:48 PM
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,226
Atlanta
bvining Offline
veteran
bvining  Offline
veteran

Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,226
Atlanta
So is the cost of the hard wing the biggest issue? or is it the practicallity of it? or both?.

The fact that 3 C Class were sailing off newport last week is huge for the Class. They havent had that many in one place in something like 9 years, I wouldnt even bother talking about limiting the class or adding rules or creating a new division , just go sail the tornado or an 18sq.

How about a consortium to lower the costs on a hard wing program? Get a couple/3 guys, hopefully one with CAD/Design skills, and all with hands on experience building stuff and go for it.

Bill

Re: C-Class Catamarans [Re: bvining] #85710
10/03/06 05:22 AM
10/03/06 05:22 AM
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11
B
BigC Offline
stranger
BigC  Offline
stranger
B

Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11
Whats wrong with having 2 divisions within the class anything that increases the numbers and profile of these awesome boats has surely got to be a good thing.
It would make it more of a spectator sport to if we had 2 evenly matched divisions racing the same course at the same time but with vastly different up and downwind speeds

Page 1 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  Damon Linkous 

Search

Who's Online Now
0 registered members (), 696 guests, and 92 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
Darryl, zorro, CraigJ, PaulEddo2, AUS180
8150 Registered Users
Top Posters(30 Days)
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics22,404
Posts267,055
Members8,150
Most Online2,167
Dec 19th, 2022
--Advertisement--
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1