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Open Source F16 design #87799
11/02/06 11:40 AM
11/02/06 11:40 AM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 104
Israel
Erez Offline OP
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Erez  Offline OP
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Wikipedia
Quote
Open source describes practices in production and development that promote access to the end product's source materials—typically,their source code.

Some consider it as a philosophy, and others consider it as a pragmatic methodology.
Before open source became widely adopted, developers and producers used a variety of phrases to describe the concept; the term open source gained popularity with the rise of the Internet and its enabling of diverse production models,communication paths, and interactive communities.

[1] Subsequently, open source software became the most prominent face of open source practices.

The open source model can allow for the concurrent use of different agendas and approaches in production, in contrast with more centralized models of development such as those typically used in commercial software companies.

[2] "Open source" as applied to culture defines a culture in which fixations are made generally available. [color:"red"] Participants in such a culture are able to modify those products and redistribute them back into the community.
[/color]



How come there is not an Open Source F16 design? ...
Based on the community knowledge and experience

http://www.freeship.org
FREE!ship is totally FREE and open-source.


Erez Ben Shoham http://www.cat-sail.co.il
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Re: Open Source F16 design [Re: Erez] #87800
11/03/06 08:34 AM
11/03/06 08:34 AM
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Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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Quote

How come there is not an Open Source F16 design? ...



You (or anybody) wants to start such a project ?

It can well be done.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Open Source F16 design [Re: Wouter] #87801
11/03/06 09:19 AM
11/03/06 09:19 AM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 545
Brighton, UK
grob Offline
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Not sure I understand what is being proposed, do you mean we get together and design an F16 and make the models, plans, calculations etc freely available to all.

Gareth

Re: Open Source F16 design [Re: grob] #87802
11/03/06 09:42 AM
11/03/06 09:42 AM
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St Petersburg FL
Robi Offline
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Quote
Not sure I understand what is being proposed, do you mean we get together and design an F16 and make the models, plans, calculations etc freely available to all.

Gareth
Yup that is what open source is all about. A group of people getting together building a design and making it better and better.

I love this idea and aproach.

Re: Open Source F16 design [Re: Wouter] #87803
11/03/06 05:18 PM
11/03/06 05:18 PM
Joined: Sep 2005
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Erez Offline OP
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Quote
You (or anybody) wants to start such a project ?


I would love to start this, in fact I have already started
you can download the file here
www.qcm.co.il/files/f16.zip (AutoCAD)
I'm sure there will be many opinions about this design

Attached Files
89089-f16.gif (691 downloads)
Last edited by Erez; 11/03/06 05:41 PM.

Erez Ben Shoham http://www.cat-sail.co.il
Re: Open Source F16 design [Re: Erez] #87804
11/03/06 05:20 PM
11/03/06 05:20 PM
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Wouter Offline
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Wouter  Offline
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I don't have autocat, can you export the picture to a jpg or gif format ?

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Open Source F16 design [Re: Wouter] #87805
11/03/06 05:25 PM
11/03/06 05:25 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline

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Look at the attachment in Erez's post..

http://www.catsailor.com/forums/download.php?Number=89089

I dont know much about hull design, so I'll refrain from comments.

Re: Open Source F16 design [Re: Wouter] #87806
11/03/06 06:13 PM
11/03/06 06:13 PM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 104
Israel
Erez Offline OP
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Erez  Offline OP
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Israel
Quote
I don't have autocat, can you export the picture to a jpg or gif format ?


autoCAT \ autoCAD
I make that mistake all the time
I wonder why ?


Erez Ben Shoham http://www.cat-sail.co.il
Re: Open Source F16 design [Re: Erez] #87807
11/03/06 06:57 PM
11/03/06 06:57 PM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 695
Ft. Pierce, Fl. USA
Seeker Offline
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It came up as a solidworks drawing on my computer...I have an academic version of Solidworks so maybe it just recognized it and opened it up with that?

Regards,
Bob

Re: Open Source F16 design [Re: Seeker] #87808
11/04/06 02:24 AM
11/04/06 02:24 AM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 104
Israel
Erez Offline OP
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Erez  Offline OP
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Erez Ben Shoham http://www.cat-sail.co.il
Re: Open Source F16 design [Re: Erez] #87809
11/05/06 01:27 AM
11/05/06 01:27 AM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 951
Brisbane, Queensland, Australi...
ncik Offline
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I'm in the middle of designing a new hull to stick under my current rig and beams (modified mosquito). It will be able to support the F16 minimum weight with crew as opposed to the mosquito weight. If it goes well I'd be interested in supporting the open source F16 and provide a hullform with internal structure.

The best way to do this maybe in the form of a wiki dedicated to the process.

I'm not sure if it will be a worthwhile exercise though, there's not a lot to the design of an F16 without going to extreme analysis techniques or just good old fashioned on-water testing.

Sails - pretty much sussed and only on-water testing is likely to produce any improvements, unless you want to purchase/write some hefty software.
Rigs - stiff is fast.
Beams/Platforms - stiff is fast.
Hull Structure - Sooo many varieties that all work, some better than others, but all have there advantages.
Hull Form - only real area that development is possible, and that is mainly because of personal preferences, therefore let the owner of the boat decide.
Foils(Centreboard/Rudders) - a fair bit of freedom here...

Probably a better idea is to provide a set of resources that ppl can put into use in their own designs (general hull construction, tips and tricks, traps for beginners, photos, rig details, etc). Also, we could put our combined brain power to a list of improvements that can be made to current design/construction practices. This would make its way into the above mention resource of current best practices once it is proven on the water.

I can assure you that a lot of the information that will be generated will be based on heresay, rumour, misinformation, lack of understanding and just plain miscommunication. I have heard it all with regard to boat design! This needs to be carefully controlled with proper, unbiased discussion and not heated argument(which will only ruin the idea).

Another part to this could be a set of spreadsheets/software that can be used to develop an F16 design. Just simple stuff like basic hydrostatics for F16 weight with your specific crew weight, maybe some basic resistance calcs for a design (although this is very tricky)...

Really what I am counter proposing is just a collaboration of all the information we currently have spread all over the world into one source. There is already tons of it in this forum and even more of it in the minds of the current sailors, but it is difficult to find sometimes.

I hope I haven't come across as negative to the idea of an open source F16, I just think it needs a bit of fine tuning towards something that would be less frustrating, more inclusive of everyones ideas and more useful to everyone that is interested. I think encouragement of homebuilt F16's is a very good idea and this resource will be very valuable to the F16 homebuilder.

An example of what I'm talking about is
Lester Gilbert personal website with a good array of information for International One Metre model yachts. It is set out in relatively easy to browse categories.

Done Formula 16 Catamaran Design
There may be problems with adding an F16 design wiki to wikipedia, someone has objected to it being an "instruction manual". Might have to come up with another idea or just edit the article or title. Maybe place a wiki on the F16 website.

Re: Open Source F16 design [Re: ncik] #87810
11/05/06 07:11 AM
11/05/06 07:11 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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I would be willing to contribute to this open-source design, but I'm not going to "pull-the-car" on this project.

I think such a project has many advantages. It educates the sailors which I think to be very important. There is just too much misunderstanding about and the F16's need a skilled crew to really get it going. And I think it will be very helpful to sailors who are looking to adjust their boats to personal preferences. This in fact helps out our dealors and builders as it is very hard for them to deliver "perfect" boats for the inexpensive price we demand of them. Besides "perfect" is different for everybody else. It will be very attractive for the sailors to do their own part in this setup and an open sourse design that lists several alternatives for each aspect will be excellent here.

Additionally it will be a promotional dream. Already we attract many sailors from other classes who are looking to read about these things. An open source probject like this will only spread the name familiarity of F16 more and could really help in its international growth. Also it can show that proper lightweight designing can both be dependendable and simple.

And such a owners/volunteers driven open source project will be a gold mine for the professional designers and builders to see what people prefer and what alternatives may exist to their current way of doing things. They don't have to invest alot of their own time, and were are talking alot of time here, or large sums of money by having an employee research the matters. All this will only help the builders and our class as a whole. It will definately act as a continuing market research and customer feedback project.

Of course it will also be a lot of fun for the persons involved.

However like Ncik says, we need a small team of supervisors that are scientifically capable to run the show and seperate unfounded "stories" from scientifically founded fact. This will be a most important role and a hard one to forfil. I know because we went through such a setup when we first drafted the F16 rules. You got to have a very clear view and policy of what is scientifically founded and what is not. You can decide to have a seperate section to give wild idea's a chance but it needs to be set apart from the main project. Otherwise you are getting nowhere, believe me.

Also we should set up our own dedicated website and not use wikipedia for this. Again this is a job for a dedicated person.


If you guys are succesful in getting this up and running then I'm willing to contribute heavily to it in the way of designing.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Good start would be ... [Re: Wouter] #87811
11/05/06 07:17 AM
11/05/06 07:17 AM
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A good start for this project would be to do a webwide search for scientifically well developped articles and websites like :

http://www.onemetre.net/

or the miss Nylex design article (C-class) that contains results of actual testing (but I can't seem to find now.

It will be most easy to discuss the scientific merit and dependability of these website as a group. This saves us all alot of time typing of lengthy pieces only to find out that it was disproven somewhere else.

This way we also build a common base of understanding of scientific principles and what has already been developped by skilled engineers using this principles. It will be far better the advance the open source project on this foundation then to shoot us in some direction. This point is key, I can't overstress is enough. Again there are alot of misconception around with respect to boat design.

Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 11/05/06 07:19 AM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Good start would be ... [Re: Wouter] #87812
11/05/06 07:49 AM
11/05/06 07:49 AM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 951
Brisbane, Queensland, Australi...
ncik Offline
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How difficult would it be to implement a wiki on the formula 16 website?

For those that don't know, a wiki is a web based reference tool that can be edited by anyone. The principle is very simple, if you don't agree with what is written, you can edit it. As time goes on, a very rich source of well developed, solid concepts are brought to life. They are very user friendly and would be perfect for this project.

I hope I'm not hijacking this idea of an open-source design (it's gone a bit quiet in here), the two concepts could work very well hand-in-hand. It is the beauty of the wiki, it is what we make it.

Re: Good start would be ... [Re: ncik] #87813
11/05/06 08:01 AM
11/05/06 08:01 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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Wouter  Offline
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Not difficult but apparently the wikipedia boys don't want anything other then encyclopic articles on their website and an open source design project is not encyclopidic.

Would be a big hard going if they delete the stuff every 5 days as they are threatening to do now.

Maybe we could request a page nevertheless or ask for their website engine.

Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 11/05/06 08:02 AM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Another another installment : Landenberger [Re: Wouter] #87814
11/05/06 08:49 AM
11/05/06 08:49 AM
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Wouter Offline
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And here another installment :

Landenberg Tuning guide

This one is helpful for designing the placings of the mast fittings etc.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Another another installment : Landenberger [Re: Wouter] #87815
11/05/06 09:11 AM
11/05/06 09:11 AM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 545
Brighton, UK
grob Offline
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OK, I am also willing to participate, I can contribute engineering and design knowledge, not very good with any of the web stuff though.

Gareth

Re: Another another installment : Landenberger [Re: grob] #87816
11/05/06 09:21 AM
11/05/06 09:21 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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Would it be nice to follow some parallel pathways in the development of the Open Source F16 ?

Like one setup using rotomolded hulls and another using glass hulls. See what we can come up with ?

I'm sure Rolf will be in on the team as well. Probably mostly with sail design. That would be good as well.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Another another installment : Landenberger [Re: Wouter] #87817
11/05/06 09:58 AM
11/05/06 09:58 AM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 104
Israel
Erez Offline OP
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Erez  Offline OP
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Israel
I am not an engineer,
I can help with the web stuff
If ther is a need for a web platform dedicated to document this project I can build it, host it and administrate it....


Erez Ben Shoham http://www.cat-sail.co.il
Re: Good start would be ... [Re: ncik] #87818
11/05/06 02:53 PM
11/05/06 02:53 PM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 465
Oxford, UK
pdwarren Offline
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Technically, putting a wiki on the Formula 16 website is not too hard, but running the things is surprisingly difficult. I've had a lot of trouble with spammers on wikis that I've run in the past - they come and delete your content and insert links to their websites (the idea being to gain Google page rank). It's not hard to revert out their changes, but it gets boring very quickly.

It's probably not a huge issue at the moment: our website has a miserably low page rank, so is not very attractive to the spammers (I'll start a thread about that, as it's something we should address...)

The wiki software that wikipedia uses is mediawiki. I've not used mediawiki, but I've used several others and they all suck in their own little ways...

Paul

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