Jake, its okay, you can blame your crew, I deserve it....I suck! New sails and a bigger focus for me this year too!

Stuart, the platforms are so equal its scary . I feel the new sail designs are superior, and the wing mast probably has an advantage, but my bet is the same guys would have won the NA's on any boat there. The good sailors "happened" to be on new boats, but its the talent in this class that determines finishes. At spring fever Nigel and Dave Ingram switched boats, and Nigel and Alex still kicked everyones butt by the same margin(alot).
Bottome line...
Tiger, Cap, NACRA(any year other than I18) with new sails, are head to head equal around the cans. Distance is yet to be determined, but you need to be on an I20 if you are going distance racing (in the Atlantic anyway).
And I hate to say this, but the F16 is a cool little boat, class is in its infancy here in the states, but will probably grow, although I doubt it will grow as fast or as big as the F18 class because the Tiger one design was already established and was encompassed into the class.
Just my opinion, flame away!

I used the term" One design" loosley.
Meaning sailing against other F18's in this case.
I don't see much differance between the boats.
My point was having the chance to race when you have one start, one finish and one winner with no clock on similar platforms.
I think Jake made my point. Not sailing enough of those events before a Nationals will hurt your performance.

Have you ever sailed an F16?

Yes

Years ago I raced the Great South Bay 60-60 against Glen Ashby and his crew on a 4.9. They were probably 340 lbs+ and kicked everyones sorry butts sailing on 20 fters. The 4.9 does fairly well with a load on.
I have sailed the 4.9 with about 350 lbs all up in 12-15 knots I thought it was much better sailing then a F-18 at the same crew weight and wind. Given the choice I would race it at around 310 lbs in most conditions. In 30 knots I think I would rather be on the f-18 though.

I don't own either boats personaly.

Cheers,
Eric

So, are saying that the F16 is weight insensitive? A crew of 350 is just as competitive as a crew of 280?

Well because it is a development class, you can have a mast built for the appropiate weight, and have sails made for the weight too.

How's that working out so far?

I disagree. Unless you can increase your sail area, you can maybe compensate for about 10lbs with sail/mast combinations. If you look at the Tornadoes (a boat much LESS weight sensitive than a smaller cat like F16) they are stripping every possible ounce out of the boat and all the top crews are around a pretty narrow weight range from each other. Every cat is sensitive to weight and the smaller the sail plan the more it matters.

Anyway Stuart... I'm glad you're considering the F18. I agree that you could pick any F18 (except I18) and be happy with it as long as it has not been totally abused. If you are thinking of racing in your area you might have most options with a Tiger. Also, going to a regatta is a great idea just for the learning experience. I'm sure we'd all be happy to help with tips on boat setup and sailing faster.

Welcome to the class and hope to see you out on the water!

Ding: How did all this get started? I always thought of the F16 as a single hander with the ability to occassionally add crew.

When I was shopping, I only compared the F16 and A cat. The A was a little more than I wanted to spend and the Blade was built in Florida, had a spinnaker and jib. For me, the Blade just made sense. The light weight made it an A+ boat.

It never occurred to me to compare the F16 to th F18.

Your point that weight matters is undeniable.... So what can you do about it?

Classes want to increase the range of sailors who fit the boat (or not see Tornado).... Ergo rules

Consider how the F18 class treats the weight ranges with their rules
B.4.3. SPINNAKER
Two sail areas of spinnakers are permitted as a function of crew weight.
4.3.1 Crews of 115 kg (253.53 LBS) to 150 kg (330.69 LBS):
Maximum surface area for the spinnaker : 19.00m².
4.3.2 Crews of more than 150 kg (330.69 LBS) and crews over 140 kg (308.65 LBS) changing of category (see B.3.3) : Maximum surface area for the spinnaker : 21.00m².
(Jibs also change in size)

Two size of jibs and spins plus a scheme for how much lead to add to the boat extend the range of sailing teams able to compete on a level playing field (and thus the size of the class.

Despite all of this... The top teams cluster at the weight needed to carry the max sail area and NO lead... 330 lbs!
Why... They are also stuck with alu masts. (It is so much more expensive to find a stiffer or softer Alu mast for your team weight)

For the Tornado... the top teams cluster at the max weight needed to hold the boat down in championship conditions... e.g. 5 knots to 22 knots. So... about 320 lbs. The carbon mast on the Tornado is SET IN STONE and is one design (Insisted on by ISAF after all of the alu mast programs voided the spirit of the last Olympics) ... The class HAD TO SWITCH TO A ONE DESIGN STICK, wanted no changes in weight from the team's that were sailing the classic rig mast internationally and so had Marstrom build a one design mast. So you can't use them as benchmark for your mast-sail combo relative to weight range point either.

(In fact... your point should be... sail shape seems to compensate for 10 lbs of team weight...)

Fact of the matter is that Mast and Sail combos seem to give the A class a relatively huge weight range of sailors in the class when coupled with modern hull shapes that are of light weight (read.. not the Tornado)

The one design mast of the Tornado and the rule restricted F18 class examples you are pointing to cannot make your point about the tunability of mast sail combos' and team weight.

The unrestricted F16 team could build a mast to suit their team weight to get the max power out of the rig.

Now... how much drag the extra weight causes depends on hull shape, where the buoyancy is etc etc... The Blade seems to be better the Taipan (appropriate for time between the hull designs)

Mark

The F16 should be considered if you are a light weight team with the physically weaker team mate on the front end of the boat.... Now you can always refuse to race each other... but that would be childish... No?

Or is the ultimate goal to have races between teams that weigh 330 lbs in the F18's and 320 plus or minus 10 lbs in the Tornado

Meanwhile, I race along on me N20 at 355#s and 410#s depending on crew, ... sorry couldn't resist ... since my son just got done with his first round of vomiting and he is now in the shower relaxing and preparing for the second and third rounds...what is a little hot water . . . hmmmm ... what other post can I infect whilst awaiting rounds two and three . . . .

Okay then, there now round two is over, one more round of this and there is a 98% chance it is all done for the evening, or monring in this case.

All this bickering between F-16/F-17/F-18/A-class/anyboat is very tiresome and detracts a lot from the quality of the excellent forum we have here. We dont need to go trough this every time a new sailor asks which boat to choose.

About the Tornado, it is quite weight sensitive for a 20 footer. It dont have as much bouyancy low down as newer designs. It is also the olympic catamaran, so no wonder if the ambituous sailors tune in to an optimum crew weight. There are some weight differences between crews tough! We raced it at 200kgs last nationals, and was clearly at an disadvantage in the light stuff. In heavy winds we still had to sail smart to finish well, lighter crews was still very fast.
Mark, how do you know that ISAF demanded a carbon mast? That position was not mentioned when we went trough the ballot, so I am a bit curious on the why/how/when. Or am I mistaken?
For you engineers out there, deflection tests for all certified T one design carbon masts are available at: http://www.tornado.org/html/carbon_mast_data.asp
Looks like there are some differences between masts, but perhaps not large enough to be significant?


To get back to topic. Stuart wants to know about structural issues with common F-18 models. Are there none? How about hull stiffness on the older, much used, boats? Has there not been any significant changes to beam positions and foils over the years? I have seen two Hobie Tiger masts come down due to breaking schakles, is this common? (I have also seen Tornado dyform shrouds breaking inside the terminal, so please dont go there). No ill will here, just curious..


Chris, I can totally relate to your sons malady. I spent the better part of the night embracing the toilet bowl myself. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Infusion

Actually the right answer to that question is yes.

The optimal weight for the boats seem to be around 140 kg = 310 lbs, with a competive weight span extending 30 lbs to eiher side of this number. This in fact means that an underweight crew at 280 lbs is about as much disadvantaged as an overweight 340 lbs crew. It is my personal experience that the weight sensitivity of the boats is rather flat indeed in this 280-340 lbs range. And like Eric Anderson I've seen both a 255 lbs and a 360 lbs crews do very well indeed in a mixed fleet with well sailed F18's and F20's, I'm sure they were disadvantaged but not to such an extend that it really prevented them from doing well.

Having said all this I think the Taipan F16 is the most weight sensitive of all F16's beyond 320 lbs, the newer F16's all tend to handle the upper weight ranges better.

But this bickering is best stopped, I think.

Wouter

I fully agree with Rolf here. And I say that as a person that can't deny enjoying a good bickering between the F18's and F16's. But this thread is not the right place for that.


Didn't the overweight combo of Bundock and Ashby recently won the Tornado World championship I think they are 165 kg together.




Most F18's are just plain good. Stay away from Mystere is probably sound achieved because of shortage of replacement parts.




Not enough difference to consider if sailing these boats mostly recreationally.



There have been changes, but again not enough different to consider if sailing these boats mostly recreationally.




Not to my knowlegde.


Wouter

The guys are very close to 150kg..... I beleive they weighed in at the F18 States at 154 kg.

I think Ashby himself quoted himself being "a little over 80 kg", maybe he trimmed himself down ?

But there is no denying the Aus F18 states measurement I guess.

Wouter

I just stepped off a 3.5yo tiger (with quite a few miles on it) onto a new one. The new boat is undeniably stiffer in the hulls. That said, unless you are a gun sailor the learning curve of a new boat would make it insignificant. Also note that my old boat had a *lot* of miles on it in a very choppy bay and was still winning races when I sold it (there is no reason why it couldn't continue to for a long time)



Never heard of that one myself. I did drop the rig last July when the pig tail broke (between the forestay/jib rotator and mast). That one cost $30 to fix and should have been replaced as part of routine maintenance (my bad).

Cheers,

Tiger Mike