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Re: Youth Recreation Trend [Re: MauganN20] #93895
01/02/07 08:57 PM
01/02/07 08:57 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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Remember Maugan, that laser 1 dinghy isn't bigger than the F12 !

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Youth Recreation Trend [Re: pbisesi] #93896
01/02/07 09:02 PM
01/02/07 09:02 PM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 461
Victoria, Oztralia
mattaipan Offline
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mattaipan  Offline
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Victoria, Oztralia
Hi All

I was just having a quiet think to myself. When I sailed juniors the only real option available was an Arafura cadet or an Impara cadet (both 12 ft), are you familiar with the Impara, Phill? Theres actually one in storage at the local yacht Club, its ply, rounded tortured ply as opposed to the hard chine Arafura. When we used to rig on the beach, we'd dream of sailing the boats like the mosquito, taipan or the pipe dream A Class.

My only concern (don't hurt me) would be not make it too simple, even the smallest of the monos and indeed the Arafura and Impara had the basic control lines, not necessarily a 8:1 internal downhaul or anything like that, but when kids look at the big boats they can associate their boat with something bigger.

I've been thinking of the future for my son as well, and have sat down with paper and pen, nothing too technical at this stage, but in realistic terms what I would have liked to sail when I was a junior, whilst remaining as stated easily and inexpensive to build, transport and sail.

Maybe ask the juniors what they see as being the ideal cat for them, I know, I know never work kids or animals, but you never know what ideas they might have to help.

Just another opinion, but at the end of the day. If was a junior, I'd want to be able look at my boat and then look at a F16, A Class or whatever and say to myself, 'Your Next'. Just tell Mum and Dad to start forking out the inheritence a bit earlier, I keep asking mine, but they won't go for it <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Regards


Matt Harper Homebuilt Taipan 4.9 AUS 329 'GOT WOOD' SEEDY PIRATES RACING TEAM
Re: Youth Recreation Trend [Re: rhodysail] #93897
01/02/07 09:12 PM
01/02/07 09:12 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 118
St. Louis, MO
JoeLeonard Offline
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JoeLeonard  Offline
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St. Louis, MO
One point that has not been mentioned......the boat MUST be exciting....it HAS to be able to SMOKE mono dingys of similar size/length (including Laser). Kids today are a bit more adrenaline addicted than even a generation ago. Add to that the fact that we (in most cases) are trying to pull kids from strong existing mono classes with a lot of family history. Even my own 15 year old has a hard time bucking all his friends to come sail on a cat....but he will IF it is significantly more exciting...but NOT "just" because it has 2 hulls.....(as an aside, I'm hoping to get him on an F18 soon...)


JL N20 # 1041 "Lucille" A-cat USA 44
Re: Youth Recreation Trend [Re: JoeLeonard] #93898
01/02/07 09:16 PM
01/02/07 09:16 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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Does anybody know what the US sailing Portsmouth numbers for the laser dinghy are and if these numbers can be compared to the cat portsmouth numbers ?

That would help me.

Matt and Joe, basically what I'm trying to do is keep walking down the scaling path that lead the F16's to have the same performance as the F18's and that has also shown the Aussie F14's to hang with both the F16's and F18's. This will allow the F12 to be a pretty fast boat.

Roughly speaking if we scale a 5.52 mtr long F18 hull (330 kg crew+boat weight) down to 3.65 mtr (F12) then that hull will carry optimally 100 kg (boat + crew). Now if we are succesful in making the F12 50 kg ready to sail then a 50 kg kid will be flying with about the same speed as the F18 if the rigs are scaled by the same extend. This latter conditions is too much to live up to as that would require some 9.25 sq.mtr. of upwind sailarea. and we would only carry something like 6 sq. mtr. But still those 6 sq. mtr. would bring the F12 performance to somewhere around the Hobie 16's and Prindle 16's. And that is really not a bad speed potential for the kids. It will certainly impress the Laser crowd.

But this are just early predictions.


And Matt, in my basic plan the platform would look almost the same as an A-cat except not having daggerboards but skegs. The only real different will be the rig itself but I think the unstayed landyacht rig does look flashy enough to make it attractive. Ohh, and it won't have a trapeze. It will be a hiking boat just like the laser.

But one thing is for sure, because of the extra width a kid will be able to make the F12 go much faster then he can make the laser dinghy go. Afterall you need to be pretty tall and heavy to get max performance out of a laser.

Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 01/02/07 09:36 PM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Youth Recreation Trend [Re: Wouter] #93899
01/02/07 09:27 PM
01/02/07 09:27 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 118
St. Louis, MO
JoeLeonard Offline
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JoeLeonard  Offline
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St. Louis, MO
Quote


Does anybody know what the US sailing Portsmouth numbers for the laser dinghy are and if these numbers can be compared to the cat portsmouth numbers ?

That would help me.

Wouter


The standard Laser is rated at 91.1

For sake of reference following are a few various cats:

Hobie 14 - 86.4
Hobie 16 - 76
F16 (2up) - 65.2
F18 - 62.4
N20 - 59.3
Tornado - 59.0


JL N20 # 1041 "Lucille" A-cat USA 44
Re: Youth Recreation Trend [Re: JoeLeonard] #93900
01/02/07 09:30 PM
01/02/07 09:30 PM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,114
BANNED
MauganN20 Offline
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Remember Maugan, that laser 1 dinghy isn't bigger than the F12 !


I couldn't sail a Laser either Wout :P

Not anymore.

Re: Youth Recreation Trend [Re: Wouter] #93901
01/02/07 09:32 PM
01/02/07 09:32 PM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 443
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
bobcat Offline
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bobcat  Offline
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Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Laser (Int.) LASE 91.1 93.8 92.2 91.0 88.2

And yes these numbers would apply against a catamaran.



Portsmouth

Doh, I'm a little slow.


Last edited by bobcat; 01/02/07 09:33 PM.
Re: Youth Recreation Trend [Re: bobcat] #93902
01/02/07 09:41 PM
01/02/07 09:41 PM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 393
Syracuse,N.Y
pbisesi Offline
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pbisesi  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 393
Syracuse,N.Y
[Linked Image]
Matt: Here's your Arafura
There are at least 10 cats that have been designed and built that are under 14ft over the years.
Has anyone heard of the Paper Tiger?

Attached Files
94873-scan0003.jpg (37 downloads)

Pat Bisesi Fleet 204
Re: Youth Recreation Trend [Re: pbisesi] #93903
01/02/07 10:03 PM
01/02/07 10:03 PM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 461
Victoria, Oztralia
mattaipan Offline
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Victoria, Oztralia
Yes, Paper Tigers everywhere over here, but too big for junior IMO (assuming where chasing the youngest of sailors)
Although it has approval I think for junior development over here for things like Vicsail (turning juniors to champs).

The Impara Cadet looks like a small version of the mossie, more modern than the Arafura, however the Arafura is still fairly popular I think, but I've only ever seen 3 Imparas.

I'm not sure that the collapsible mast/unstayed rig would be my thinking, but I'm not designing it either. And I believe trapeze is a must have, if this boat could comparable to the hobie 16 or any bigger cat for that matter, I can't see how you could be in the ball park hiking, lets face it, I love and have always loved the wire.

Just my 2 cents


Matt Harper Homebuilt Taipan 4.9 AUS 329 'GOT WOOD' SEEDY PIRATES RACING TEAM
Re: Youth Recreation Trend [Re: mattaipan] #93904
01/02/07 10:44 PM
01/02/07 10:44 PM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,383
Kingston SE South Australia
JeffS Offline
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Kingston SE South Australia
My 6 year old loves to trap even as I drag the Stingray over the sand, he wouldnt look at a cat without traps but would work the wild thing out pretty quick. Workout that small homebuild and I could get rid of the 420.
regards

Attached Files
94882-Eoinonthewire.jpg (54 downloads)

Jeff Southall
Current boats
Nacra 5.8 1703 Animal Scanning Services
Nacra 5.8 1667 Ram Raider
Nacra 18 Square
Arrow 1576
Re: Youth Recreation Trend [Re: mattaipan] #93905
01/02/07 10:44 PM
01/02/07 10:44 PM
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 902
Norman,OK
gree2056 Offline
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gree2056  Offline
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Norman,OK
To make the boat exciting it will need to have a trapeze. Without the trapeze all you have is two lasers attached. I mean I am sure it would be different but if you are hiking just like the laser crowd you don't look that different. But if some kid is on a laser hiking out, and some kid flys by them trapped out.... we will have one more cat sailor.

The cool factor is a must. THe boat has to look like the bigger cats. That was what drew me away from my little 14. I can't afford a really nice new boat but the 5.2 sure looks a hell of alot closer to those nicer cats than the 14 did. If the boat looks like the bigger boat that dad is sailing kids will love it!

I brought this topic up on the Hobie forum a while back and got flamed for it. I had mentioned the idea that the boat could be built for 3 possibly even 4 thousand dollars. Alot of the people at Hobie ripped me for that idea saying that there was no way it could be done. So I would say that Hobie is not the company to go to with the idea.


Once you go cat you never go back! Nacra 5.2 (Elsies)#1499, running an inter17 spin!
Re: Youth Recreation Trend [Re: JeffS] #93906
01/02/07 10:47 PM
01/02/07 10:47 PM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,383
Kingston SE South Australia
JeffS Offline
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JeffS  Offline
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Kingston SE South Australia
Yeah I know the rigging looks bad on that attatchment and that was the old boat when he was four but he already knows that a real boat has traps
regards


Jeff Southall
Current boats
Nacra 5.8 1703 Animal Scanning Services
Nacra 5.8 1667 Ram Raider
Nacra 18 Square
Arrow 1576
Re: Youth Recreation Trend [Re: Wouter] #93907
01/02/07 10:50 PM
01/02/07 10:50 PM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,187
38.912, -95.37
_flatlander_ Offline OP
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Posts: 1,187
38.912, -95.37
How does a Class 5 mast attach to the main beam?

Hobie 16 side rails are more than 1,8 meters, enough of a flat spot to consider teardrop instead of a round beam? In light of beam landing issues. (I'm also thinking of "throw away" items to use I have piling up in the garage)

Skegs? You had previously spoke of some type of pivoting boards. Suppose that is just driving up costs.

What about steering, single rudder with two extensions (ala skiff)? Would there be an issue/interference with the traveller system? Or two rudders and crossbar?

Can you elaborate more on sails and existing options. A quick google came up with $800USD w/o battens for a UK made Class 5 sail.

Last edited by flatlander18; 01/02/07 10:52 PM.

John H16, H14
Re: Youth Recreation Trend [Re: JeffS] #93908
01/02/07 10:50 PM
01/02/07 10:50 PM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,121
Eastern NC, USA
T
tshan Offline
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Eastern NC, USA
Adding traps complicates the rigging because you'd then need a stayed mast, right? Losing the simple factor.... Rolling over a Laser with speed would be enough in my opinion.


Tom
Re: Youth Recreation Trend [Re: phill] #93909
01/02/07 11:16 PM
01/02/07 11:16 PM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,187
38.912, -95.37
_flatlander_ Offline OP
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_flatlander_  Offline OP
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Quote
Folks,
I started prototying a boat like this a while back and even have two half built hulls.
I have been drawn off the project helping to get the Blade F16 and F18 into production in Australia.

Since then I have come up with further simplifications that will keep the craft very simple and straight forward.
Currently I'm working on a new building method that I hope will make building such a boat easier for the handyman than both tortured ply and chined construction and allow a boat to be built from either ply or foam. So when I get back to it I will start fresh using this method.

The idea is to car top the craft so the all up rigged weight has to be under 50kg. It's a rope and stick boat.
They are the only controls. The mainsheet also applies tension to the luff of the sail. Other than mainsheet there is a tiller. That's it. The boat will be easier to rig than a Laser.
The boat is 12ft long and crew weight limited to around 60kg.

If needed it should be able to be sailed in water the kids can stand up in. As it has a free standing rig and with so few fittings and moving parts the cost of construction private or commercial should be quite cheap.

Getting something like this on the water and working is the easy part. Convincing people to build or buy and sail is the challenge.

I believe we should be growing our own crop of sailors instead of leaving it up to the mono guys.

I will be getting back to the project as soon as I have the time to do the prototyping.

Regards,
Phill


Too bad us Northerners are in the "wrong hemisphere", most of us are looking at three months of down time.


John H16, H14
Re: Youth Recreation Trend [Re: tshan] #93910
01/02/07 11:24 PM
01/02/07 11:24 PM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 393
Syracuse,N.Y
pbisesi Offline
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pbisesi  Offline
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Posts: 393
Syracuse,N.Y
I don't know about you guys, but I am not going to spend $3,000 on a light weight(50kg) foam core boat(read fragile) to give to my kid so she can go run into or be run into by other kids while learning to sail.This will happen. Lots of money or my time to fix.
For kids 13 and under the Wave(or similiar roto-mold durable boat) works great. After that they can sail whatever they want.
Having a kid on a trap wire is great fun for them and sometimes scary if your not careful. It's a big jump for the kids to skipper the boat from the wire not to mention the danger of having a kid sailing by themselves and hooked into a trap.(they have a tendency to bare away as they jump out)
I have 3 kids worth of experience with all of this. The big thing is to just get them and as many of their friends on a boat as you can and go sailing. They usually want to stop and swim or drag their feet in the water or lie down on a hull and drag their arms and splash whoever they can.
It seems your thinking to much like adults and not like a kid(7-12) would.


Pat Bisesi Fleet 204
Re: Youth Recreation Trend [Re: tshan] #93911
01/02/07 11:29 PM
01/02/07 11:29 PM
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 902
Norman,OK
gree2056 Offline
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Norman,OK
Why not have a very simple stayed rig? The shrouds don't add much weight and add alot structurally. Then you could trap. I agree that passing a laser would be enough, but if we are looking to draw in large numbers of kids it would have to be more than just enough.

Also one boat can't do it all. The boat that we are designing would be for people up to about ??? what something like 130 pounds tops. From the point up there needs to be another solo boat that they can progress up to. The Hobie 14 would be the perfect boat, but they are no longer made so it looks like something else will have to replace it. That would do for High school kids and college kids. From there they could go to something like f16's or A class.


Once you go cat you never go back! Nacra 5.2 (Elsies)#1499, running an inter17 spin!
Re: Youth Recreation Trend [Re: gree2056] #93912
01/02/07 11:45 PM
01/02/07 11:45 PM

A
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
A



I bought a 2002 Mystee 4.3 Nationals boat for my grand daughter. Seems to be a fun boat. Squaetop, jib and snuffer spinnaker.

Doug

Attached Files
94897-Mystere1.jpg (53 downloads)
Re: Youth Recreation Trend [Re: ] #93913
01/03/07 12:24 AM
01/03/07 12:24 AM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,718
St Petersburg FL
Robi Offline
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St Petersburg FL
Instead of us deciding for the youngens, why not ask them. What would they consider cool to get them on it? Back when I was 12yrs old, I thought a sunfish was extremely cool. It was the first boat I ever sailed, dunno, thats just me.

Anyone with young kids, ask them for their opinion.

Re: Youth Recreation Trend [Re: Robi] #93914
01/03/07 12:56 AM
01/03/07 12:56 AM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,718
St Petersburg FL
Robi Offline
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Robi  Offline
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St Petersburg FL
Add cool graphics, make it more eye appealing, target your hardcore/tribalistic/adrenaline junkie and they will come.

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94899-f12.jpg (59 downloads)
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