Please give your opinion on F12 as an Single Manufacturer One Design (SMOD), One-design (OD) or as a Formula setup.


There is no need to hide what my initial opinion about this topic was. That is well known.

But I still feel a need to discuss this issue in more detail with the interested people. I may well change my opinion.

So please give me (us) your opinion about what you think the F12 should be :


-1- A SMOD (Single Manufacturer One Design) with possibly license building by other companies. Like the Laser


-2- A OD (One Design). The design is fixed but with some freedom in certain area's like sails and rudders. Like the Tornado.

-3- A Formula setup like the F18's, the F16's and A's.



Please explain your opinion by discussing the following points :


-1- What is best for the youths and teenagers. (we forget about the adults in this)

-2- What is best to keep costs low

-3- What is best to achieve sufficiently fast and deep market penetration

-4- What is best to achieve sufficiently fairness in racing

-5- What is best to achieve a fast and well behaved boat that can engage the competition (laser, 29-ers, twixxy etc) and come out on top.

-6- What is best to see the F12 suit the largest group of people who have an interest in the F12

-7- What is best to get this F12 of the ground and not have it fade away once the going gets tough (and it will get tough at one point)

-8- Any other reason you feel is important to consider


Wouter

Perhaps some insight could be found in the history of the evolution of the International 14 monohull dinghy class. History can be found at www.international14.org.

Here is the introduction to the text of the history, as told by the official historian, who is in England (the second and third paragraphs might be particularly pertinent):

So that is basically what I think should be the case for the Formula 12 catamaran class (if it becomes a class). Experiment should be encouraged both downward and upward in terms of speed and technology, so that a wide range of youth ages and weights can be accommodated, as well as budgets and building abilities, and to include the existing boats of that size and less.

If someone wants to create a one-design class within the Formula 12 specs, to appeal to the more advanced youth sailors, as well as possibly adults, that would be great, too.

However, I do NOT think it is in the spirit of a Formula 12 class to start out with a boat that is 12'10" long.

And SMOD is not even an option, as far as I am concerned, unless Vanguard is going to build it and promote it and dispense it in containerloads around the world. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Mary,

I would like further explanation on why you feel this way.

Wouter has pretty much said here are the choices based on the underlying mathematics are:

1. a 12 foot boat with a less then desirable sail area, making it a low performance boat, like the ones already available to purchase.
2. a 12 foot boat with the propensity to pitch pole
3. a 12’10” that with neither of the two problems.

If he is not making a mistake, I don’t see any wiggle room.

I race a C&C 37R. Guess how long it is. Yep, 40 feet. =)

I agree with the rest of what you said.

But those choices are slanted to bring you to the conclusion desired by their author, and they are based upon the premise that what is wanted for the Formula 12 class is a fast, high-performance boat. And also to fit the boat that he had already started designing.

And all the math proves is that Wouter believes the kind of boat he envisions building cannot be done as a 12-footer.

So, in other words, if he can't build his dream boat to fit within a Formula 12 class, he is going to stretch the class to fit a 12'10" boat.

Also, 10 additional inches makes a MUCH greater difference in a small boat like that than it would if you are talking about, say, a Solaris 42 if it is actually 42'10".

If Wouter builds a boat almost 13 feet long and calls it an F12 and expects it to be representative of a Formula 12 class, a Formula 12 class will never come into existence.

If he proceeds with that particular design, he should call it something other than F12 and then make that particular boat a one-design.

Meanwhile, it would be nice if somebody would come up with some box rules for a Formula 12 class and limit it to 12 feet. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

I'm a nefarious little bugger aren't I ?

Indeed, my personal preference for the longer hulls comes from the desire to finish up with a good performing boat.

I see no point or economical viability for a new class that doesn't convincingly beat the current crop of small cats out there as well as the fastest dinghies (both are pretty much 13 foot and longer as well)

With the choice of being lightweigt for reasons of performance and ease of handling c.q. TRULY car toppable the bouyance of the F12 is such that it is disadvantaged in the dive resistance when compared to its heavier competition. By making its hulls shorter then the competition as well we enter into a situation where it becomes very hard to outperform the competition (if not downright impossible) because the mast height and sail area are limited to significantly smaller proportions.

The last thing I want to happen is HURT catsailing as a whole by proving to the dinghy sailors out there that small cats simply can not perform. They will errornously inteprete that as being applicable to the whole catamaran scene even if some of them know better. As we all know they are trying desperately to convince themselfs that mono's aren't fundamentally slower then cats or tris.

I fully admit to wanting an F12 that is a "a fast, high-performance boat"

But "... to fit the boat that he had already started designing". Is not true. We (Phill and I) started out with the 12 long hull, I discovered its drawbacks and proposed to solve them by going a little longer.




Are your comments "slanted" because you are both an a wave owner and an active wave class volunteer ?

Isn't "slanted" a bit harsh word to use here, makes it sound like I have some evil plan for world domination ?




Correct, but the right question here of course is whether the boat I envision is different from what is envisioned by others. Please all raise your hands who in favour of a F12 that is not fast or capable of beating Laser 1's, Hobie Wave's or Dragoons on the water ?





Well, I think you guys deserve to hear the truth about this here indeed. If the F12 ruleset finally decided upon doesn't interest me then I may well continue with the design as I envision it and set up a different organisation around it. This design could then indeed be a one-design setup.

I'm really not interested in making a design that ONLY 7-12 year old kids can sail singlehandedly. I don't believe this age group is dependable enough for parents to justify spending a couple of thousant US$ or Euro on. Also these kids grow out of the age (weight) group too quickly and because they are then still too young and small for Hobie 14, Hobie 16's and God forbid F16's they will be forced to go back to dinghies like the laser-1 and 29-er anyway meaning that we'll have lost them again to the dark side. F14 isn't here yet and I don't really think it is going to be. So in effect there is no follow-up to the F12 unless the F12 stretches itself to make the link up with H16's or F16's. Also I think alot of these kids want to sail with a friend instead of solo, putting these crews in the 12-19 years weight range.




That was a point I made in my own initial posting as well. And this point works both ways. 10 inches less can also make a huge difference in a negative sense.





And my plans for world domination will then have SUCCEEDED ! YEAAAH !





Because you hold copyright to the name F12 ?





As long as that somebody isn't Wouter, right ?



Well I'm going to use my old trick again.

If somebody wants to replacement me as the donkey who is pulling this F12 car then by all means do so !

I will step down immediately and hand over the bit to the new person.

Nothing has changed in this respect to 2 weeks ago when I made the exact same offer.

I take note that even the very vocal persons of last time like Pat or Jake didn't respond in anyway to that offer.


Now I really want to have a F12 design that works on all fronts and that will be succesful. I'm not in any way looking forward to the huge amount of work that it will require to get it too succeed like that. Remember I already know what it is like as I've done it one time already with another class. So I'm really not doing this because it is so darn alot of fun to do, I think it is necessary and the right thing to do. So if somebody else wants to do the right thing then I'm happy to throw the burden on his or her shoulders.

But please don not think that this F12 project is rigged to do what I want. I don't have some hidden agenda. I may well change my mind if convincing counter arguments are made. At least you all should give me that much credit.

Wouter

Wouter, why do you bother to ask for people's opinions if you are going to go into a defensive filibuster everytime somebody gives an opinion you don't like?

That is a rhetorical question, by the way. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

My opinion is

Being a formula allows hull and sail shape to evolve with time and the ability to remain fresh. Certainly limited in OD.
Simplicity, the ability to build sail/hull/tramp yourself.
Dovetails with -2- (from the home-build perspective), the ability to use parts from the shed/kit/garage. Easy to use plans. No major tool expenditure. An active build group to answer questions. An association to offer F12 specific parts? A complete kit?
At least one working prototype, something to visually wrap hands around, to launch it off. Testing of windsurf rigs to create alternative, or a broader base of possible sails to keep it going. Continued feed back from prototype boats.

John,
I agree with almost everything you are saying.
The problem is that you seem to be talking about a Formula 12 class, and Wouter is talking about the boat he has designed or is designing that is 12'10" long. I just can't see any connection between the two.

It all goes back to what the goal and purpose is for a Formula 12 class. But that discussion was kind of cut off.

I think there is definitely room for a Formula 12 class for the younger kids. I don't see it for the older, more experienced kids, because they are usually ready for all the 15- and 16-footers already being used extensively for youth training, especially in Europe.

But Wouter's boat, as he has said, is not for the younger sailors. So if he does his thing with this fast, longer boat, it still does not address the problem of having a Formula 12 Class for young sailors.

Right now a catamaran for the younger sailors, ages 8-13, is really the only missing link, as far as introduction to catamarans.

Speed and performance are certanly not factors -- except for the boat having good handling characteristics for tacking, jibing, and tracking well but with some weather helm.

I am excited about Phill's design, because it sounds like something that even I could build for my grandchildren. And I need it very soon. For some reason, the kids just keep getting older every year!

(My apologies for Wouter for again expressing my opinion.)

At least Mary has an opinion. I am a notorious fence sitter and bend easily before the prairie breezes. My grandson is only 4 months old, so I can stay on my fence for a few more years. I wish I could help out, but always seem to find myself agreeing with the last argument made.

Mary,

We're going way back here, but it seems like there was a consensus (or maybe just my perception) that most people would shy away from spending $3K in a boat for a 7 to 13 year old to knock around on.

Also consider the age of 11, 12 or 13 as an age when they may formulate ideas of what they really want to do, or enjoy doing. (I think my pointing out the millenial generation is now between the ages of 7 and 25 may have thrown some people on a target age) I feel optimizing for a 12 to 18 range is legitimate. As you say a H14/H16 may be sailed at this age but what about the logistics and complexity. And in this scenario you're probably talking about a family of cat sailors who may be more apt to throw a 60kg boat on top of the adult cat (as opposed to a Bravo or Wave).

The potential there is for a new sailors as well, up through young adults of driving age. What's to prevent granddaughter from hauling her boat off to college?

I'm learning more as I hang around, but I was certainly convinced that a hull that looked fast and was light (esp. lighter than the roto- boats) must inherently BE fast. If it's not significantly faster than a Wave what purpose does it fill? Other than being easier to move around and rig?

But isn't that $3,000 for a boat based upon the kind of boat Wouter is proposing? NOT for a much simpler boat that kids CAN knock about on?
So here we go again, round and round, about the purpose of a Formula 12 class.

I said I think there is room for a Formula 12 class, but that is for the people who want their kids to start on catamarans.

I PERSONALLY don't think there is a need for it, because, as I have said many times before, I think all kids should be started out in monohull dinghies. (Unfortunately, that does not seem to be a popular viewpoint among catamaran sailors.)

Wouter's boat is already almost 13 feet long. If it is as fast as he thinks it will be, why not make it part of the Formula 14 class, which already seems to exist.

-1- What is best for the youths and teenagers? (We forget about the adults in this)

Something with enough performance to draw them from other small sailboat classes, and from other sports that are competing for their time and money.

-2- What is best to keep costs

Keep it open formula where sailor can build their boat with what is available, both financial and materials wise.

-3- What is best to achieve sufficiently fast and deep market penetration

Creative marketing, doesn’t matter how good the boat is if you can’t convince the target market that it wants an F 12, it needs an F 12, it has to have an F 12 .

-4- What is best to achieve sufficiently fairness in racing

Do the racing thing, but also have a program for those that would love to go out on the water and have fun without competing as an option. Not every kid wants to race…if it’s either a race or nothing scenario, some kids will just say forget it and go back to their playstation. Is this about getting kids into sailing? Or just racing? Or both?

-5- What is best to achieve a fast and well behaved boat that can engage the competition (laser, 29-ers, twixxy etc) and come out on top.

Go to the 12’-10” length as proposed, no sense in creating a class that offers a level of performance lower than what’s all ready out there. We want to build a better mouse trap…not one an inferior one… If these same kids that are being targeted don’t want to sail a Hobie Wave because of it’s perceived lack of performance, what chance does a boat of less performance have?

-6- What is best to see the F12 suit the largest group of people who have an interest in the F12

Again go to the 12’-10” length so it is a boat that can handle a greater spread of crew weight. Make it so a small child, a teenager, or small adult can use by starting out with a performance hull that can be tuned up or down with the size and style of the rig so as to accommodate all three groups. Any parent knows that children get all fired up about something, the parents go out and buy all the necessary equipment and then the child looses interest…If it could be also used by an adult, a parent might say to themselves, well if junior looses interest after we pour all this money and time into building this boat at least the wife or I can sail it ourself. The wider the weight capabilities, the larger the market…the more that are made, the more used ones become available on the market for other kids to get involved...Also... have you looked at the size of some of the middle/High school kids these days? They are not all the model of fitness…don't make it so the "big for their age" and "over weight" kids are effectively out of luck.

-7- What is best to get this F12 of the ground and not have it fade away once the going gets tough (and it will get tough at one point)

Keep the rules open as to fuel development within the class so it keeps fresh and the there is always a next level to aspire to… don’t make a class where the boat is so small that it is outgrown in a couple years…the 420 is sailed all the way to college age if I am not mistaken. I am sick of the tired argument "that open rules killed the C class and 18 square"


-8- Any other reason you feel is important to consider

What is the magic about a 12’-0” hull length? The FJ –s 13’-3”, the 420 is 13’-9”, The Laser is 13’-10”, and the Sunfish is 13’-9”. These are all boats youth sail…

At 12’-10”... better performance…can be home built for less money.. handle the weight of an adult…it would be in direct competition with ...

Regards,
Bob

Perhaps the Formula 12 class could have two divisions -- a division for 12-foot, entry-level, small-kid boats; and a high-performance division that allows boats up to 12'10".
Like, Formula 12 and Formula 12X. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

That would solve all these problems about who wants what from the Formula 12 class.

Mary,

Can you please elaborate why you think a 12'0" hull is more suited to a young kid then a 12'10" hull when both are fitted with the same rig and are practically identical in overall weight ?

Why do you think a young kid can't sail the 12'10" properly if it can sail the 12'0" ?

Wouter

What's to elaborate? Some people want a low-performance, fun boat for their kids to introduce them to catamarans. Other people want a high-performance boat that will beat the socks off all the "competition."

Formula 12 and Formula 12X seems like the answer. It's sort of like trying to figure out what kind of pogo stick to get when you have various ages and weights of kids involved. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

How about :

a low-performance, fun boat for their kids to introduce them to catamarans => Hobie Catsy

http://www.hobie-cat.net/site_gb/?produits,hobie_catsy

And it is low-performance : Texel rating of 165 where the F18's have 101 and the Hobie 16 have 117. That is when rigged with a jib and the larger mainsail of the two. The Hobie wave (only mainsail is 145






high-performance boat that will beat the socks off all the "competition => Formula 12



Would a seperation of youth between these two boats satisfy you ?

Wouter

Im with Mary on this, I have said it before but I think there is too much emphasis on performance, I don't think racing is something that kids want to do.

The main advantage of a cat for children is stability not performance.

I would rather go for Darryls F14 than Wouters F12/F13. I am interstested to see Phils concept.

The Catsy is nice but cannot really be homebuilt plus its an F11 <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Gareth

No Mary, it isn't.

You're guessing your way through the argument here.

As such your comments are increasingly removed from what is at hand and as such serves no purpose.

Much earlier in the discussion it was already established that a set of dotan rudders would cost 712 Euro's and mainsail would cost 615 Euro's and the ply for the hulls would 15 Euro's per square meter making the two hulls (5 sheets) cost 434 Euro's. This is 2171 US$.

Together these three cost items make up 65 % of the F12 already and then you still need beams, a mast , a trampoline, boom, blocks, sheet etc.

The basic design is already very simple in order to get down to 3000 Euro's. It is way better then the Wave and Bravo especially in sail tuning but simpler just the same. The F12 doesn't even use a Harken or Ronstan mainsheet block system.

Wouter

Seems like Hobie is already building four cats in the range we are talking about the Castsy @ 3.1 mtr., the Advance @ 3.6 mtr., the bravo @ 3.66 mtrs, the Teddy @ 3.91 mtr. Five if you count the Wave at just outside our range @ 3.98 mtr.

With all these boats offered you would think the void would be filled but obviously its not...I would venture to say these boats are aimed at resort rentals as much as individual boat owners.

Again, obviously none of these boats have the "magic" necessary to entice new kids in the numbers everyone seems to think are possible.

As adults we may look at these boats and think if we had one 25 years ago as a pre-teen we would have thought they were really cool...to youth of today they probably look like overgrown bath tub toys. Today’s youth have grown up with extreme sports as the norm...things that were unheard of 10-15 years ago. So it doesn't surprise me at all when they don't get all excited about a lack luster product that was designed to be idiot proof in a rental fleet scenario.

They are buying products like the "WE" and Apple "I pods" ...not boats that look like they were designed and built by kiddy toy Manufacturer Fisher-Price ...

Regards,
Bob

Guys,

Some of you must really learn to understand what it actually said and not inteprete things in what you expect is said.




It is not me but actually you who are putting to much emphasis on performance. I only wanted it to perform sufficiently well, You however make it out into meaning that F12 is a racing cat. I never wrote that.





This is soooooo misguided. The F14 by Darryl is so much overpowered and it actually very close to F18 and F16 is real preformance that it will scare the hell out of youngsters. That F14 is actually 25 % faster then the F12 I'm proposing.

How do you explain your opinion that F12 is too much focussed on performance, racing and too much to handle for youths and then turn around and prefer the F14 for the same group of persons ?

I mean, Please excuse me for saying so, but are you truly serious here ?

No personal offense intended.





Well, there is always something wrong with everything, isn't it ?


....


You know what I quit.

I think that I'm truly not the right person to lead this public F12 project.

I'll just continue with my own design in my own pace, everyone who wants to be part of that can e-mail me personally.

For the remainder I wish you all the best of luck and I truly hope you'll succeed in gettting the "true" F12 of the ground.

Wouter

Me too that is why I think a 12ft long F12 will perform sufficiently well for the needs of children and there is no need to have more perfromance, if I wanted more performance I would have gone for an F14. That is the point I was trying to make.

Shame you are quiting

Gareth

Aha! I get it now, if a boat, such as the Catsy, is 10'-2" long it must be an F11. Why is the F16, at 16'-5", not a F17? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Wouter,
You did not explain why you don't think it makes sense to have two divisions of Formula 12, low-performance and high-performance.

You could concentrate on the high-performance aspect, like your F12 (which might become F12X), and somebody else could concentrate on the low-performance boats for the younger kids.

Your talents are much better suited to the high-performance end of the picture.

I should add, too, that it appears there are lots of small boats available in Europe, and in Australia. But there is really nothing available in the United States except for the Bravo, which I definitely don't consider to be a good boat for children.

Why…Why…Why…would you want to design and build a hull design that is inferior if it costs you nothing more in money, time, or weight to have a superior product?

If someone offered you a compact car that outperformed a sub-compact car on every level…got better fuel economy, had a more desirable body design, had more interior room, more carrying capacity all for the exact same price…which would you choose?

If I offered to build you a house that was 3,911 square feet instead of 3,657 square feet for exactly the same price and it didn’t cost anymore in utilities, taxes or insurance to own this bigger home which would you choose?

There is zero logic to the argument of having a poorly performing 12'-0" hull design when you can have a superior one at 12'-10" that costs nothing more, is not any harder to build, will perform better, will allow a greater range of use because of increased weight bearing capacity.

Darryl’s F14 is like a Ferrari in comparison to what we are talking about here… and about three times as expensive as the proposed F12 budget. We are talking about the difference between caviar and canned tuna fish.

I say again…make the hull as performance oriented as possible within the restrictions of building materials, and simple construction methods… achieve all your performance restrictions with the rig…

“You know what I quit.” Wouter just think if you would have said that a few years back…the F16 class as we know it today might not exist…

Regards,
Bob

Because I do see the benefit of two setups, Mary.

Remember the two rigs ? One of 7.00 sq. mtr. and the other of 9.00 sq. mtr. using the same basic platform ?

I just don't see the benefit of having two size of platform, especially if they are only 10 inches different in length which in turn is only done because the name initially was F12.

Forgive me but I tiring of going in circles.

Wouter

Yeah well back then I was young, stupid and inexperienced. Due to the F16 I'm much wiser now and I know exactly the amount of work involved. And the F16 class simply would not have existed without me, the only other indispensable person in that class was Phill Brander. Together we were the core of the class for the first years and if any of us two had buckled then that would have been the end.

I pretty much got that life experience under my belt already, so I don't really need another one of the same type. Maybe that explains why I have a little bit less tolerance with the F12.

Anyway that is passed station now. I'm out.

Wouter

Ain't that the truth Bob !

Even when I was young (teenager) during the 80's I thought the Hobies looked like they were from another century. It was the nacra I liked back then.

Wouter

Wouter,
Why would you quit on your project, which sounds like a great boat that can handle everyone from pre-teens to adults?

But you said yourself that it was not designed with the younger children in mind -- like ages 7-8 to 11-12. That group could not care less what the boat looks like or how fast it is. They just want to go out on the water and have fun.

Your boat appeals to a slightly older, more sophisticated group. Like post-puberty?

This youth situation is very complicated because there are so many variations in the development of children. It's not a matter of one boat fits all in that critical period between 8 and 14.

I don't see any reason for not going forward with your boat design for its targeted group.

For my own young grandchildren, I would like something much slower and more "primitive." A miniature version of a Wharram design would be perfect. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
--------------------
Mary A. Wells
Catamaran Sailor Magazine

Mary
You wrote "I would like something much slower and more "primitive."...that is what you want...but what do your grandchildern want? they have been watching people surf 60 foot waves, jump 35 feet in the air doing loops with motorcross bikes, riding down the side of a mountains on a bycicle, doing 720's on skateboards and all matter of exteme sports, will that mini Wharram design get them excited enough to want to sail? or will they gravitate to something that looks a lot more like the latest and greatest that the adults are sailing?

Regards,
Bob
doing loops

The views that I express reflect the wants of both my daughter and her children. Just my local market research. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Where would kids see catamarans sailing, anyway, to even know what looks fast and exciting? Probably 95 percent of the kids in this country have never even seen a catamaran -- except for maybe a Wave or a Getaway in commercials on TV for a split second. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

"Where would kids see catamarans sailing, anyway, to even know what looks fast and exciting? Probably 95 percent of the kids in this country have never even seen a catamaran -- except for maybe a Wave or a Getaway in commercials on TV for a split second."

All these other sports have been actively courting the youth on TV for years...the catamaran industry is not even on their radar.

You don't need any knowledge about catamarans to tell the difference between a A2 VS wave or the difference between a Blade VS Getaway...besides the obvious difference in appearance...even the name of the rotomolded boats sound like something a grandmother would pick...LOL...no disrespect...LOL

Regards,
Bob

Bob,
I think it is in the eye and mind of the beholder. When I look at a Wharram sailboat, I see character and romance and adventure and pirates and visions of south sea islands.

When I look at a modern A cat, I just see a machine, devoid of personality.

I think young children are more likely to see things the way I do. But I can only speak for the children I know. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I guess the only way to find out is to do a worldwide survey where you give young children pictures of various sailboat styles and ask them which one they like best. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Mary...ask any boy over the age of 4 which he would rather have, a boat called a "Blade" or a boat called a "Getaway" and see which one he picks...even if he doesn't know what either one looks like...LOL

"When (I) look at a modern A cat, (I) just see a machine, devoid of personality.

(I) think young children are more likely to see things the way (I) do. But I can only speak for the children (I) know."

If I didn't know better... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />I would have to say you were trying to live vicariously thru your grandchildren? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />... LOL...

Furthermore, If boats have personalities (which they do) the A2 has to be a "Super Model" in a sea of plan Janes... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> and the rotomold boats are the ugly betties <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />.

Regards,
Bob

Why would I have to live "vicariously" through anyone? I have been sailing all my life, and still am.

If my grandchildren would rather play golf, I couldn't care less. But thank you for thinking that I care what sports my grandchildren pursue.

"Why would I have to live "vicariously" through anyone? I have been sailing all my life, and still am."

Mary...It wasn't meant to be a serious comment... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />I was hoping that you would realize my intent by the use of all the smiles and grins... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Regards,
Bob

I don't trust smiles and grins. They are often used to mask what the person truly means or thinks.

In the case of my grandchildren it is totally untrue, though. They are immersed in all the traditional team sports, and I think that's great.

They live only blocks from Lake Erie, but to get a boat down the stairs to the beach would be difficult unless it was very small and light, so my daughter and the children could carry it.

We ARE talking about basically a "toy" boat for kids to play around on and get them interested in sailing when they go to the beach with an onshore wind.

I still don't see any conflict with Wouter's design for the older and more experienced youth sailors. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I would think his answer would depend upon whether he was thinking about running away from home at the time. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Maybe I'm misunderstanding the formula concept here.
Would it not allow a boat to be built of straight ply sheets and a very simplistic method, and also allow a tortured ply design, as well as a manufacutred boat of frp or twintex or roto-mold plastic?
Would it not allow any sail up to a certain maximum size?

Isn't the fact that the 3.66m boat may be capable of taking off like a skinned cat, with a 7 year old alone at the stick, be offset by the fact that Mom or G'ma may accompany them until they feel comfortable sailing alone? Or be capable of two small friends/siblings together or alone with a smaller sail?

Seems like creating a boat capable of a broader range of payload is the smart thing to do. It's much easier to dumb down performance.
If two divisions with age and/or weight limitations are advantageous for the class, can this be accomplished by limiting sail size and leave the hulls alone? Doesn't Laser do this?
From the preliminary target of 55kg the weight has increased less than 20 pounds and probably not significantly impacted by another 20" of hull. Besides, wont yours have handles at all four corners, for going up and down the stairs?

John you raise a good point…just because the Maximum Length is set at 12’-10” wouldn’t have stopped anyone from building a boat 12’-0” long if that fit their personal goals.

I totally fail to understand why this is such a point of contention. Bill Roberts tried to tell us for years that you design a boat based on the numbers…not some arbitrary preconceived idea…apparently he got tired of beating his head against the wall since I haven’t seen him post in quite some time.

We had a chance to birth a new class that everyone said they wanted but seem we have self-destructed over the fact that an engineer ran the calculations and the numbers said that a much more efficient and useful design could be constructed if lengthened by just 10 inches … while keeping all the important primary objectives of cost, ease of construction, and light weight. It amazes me how many people just flatly ignore that the laws of physics exist…


Regards,
Bob

The reason it is a point of contention is that there are two completely different philosophies about what is needed for the youth sailors in the age range from 8-14.

That is why it makes sense to have two divisions within the Formula 12 class.

There is no reason for the class to self-destruct before it begns. And there is no reason for the F12 high-performance boat that Wouter is proposing to self-destruct. Why can't everybody compromise and allow the two divisions within the class (if there is a class), so everybody will be happy?

The cynical answer is that it's not a god class unless everybody are reasonably _un_happy about the rules. If everybody is happy, it will fizzle and die. (I'll not use any "smileys", as you dont trust them anyway)

Splitting a class from the outset is a poor idea in my opinion. No kid would want to sail the "un(der)powered" version once they figured out that it gave more status to sail the "(over)powered" version. At least that is my experience.


Bob, the "Formula 12" class is not dead. It just lies dormant until some designs are buildt. The idea (and the demand) is there, so just give it some time. If the class is not up and going in six years (when our youngest become 8), I'll build three boats myself and donate to the club if I can entice her to start sailing. But I would definatly build sails from dacron and put a mast float on so the kids could play with the things. I would also homebuild rudders/rudderstocks/sails and use cheap materials so it would not cost much..
The "Formula 12" class just need some boats to hit the water, but most of the usual suspects for homebuilding/prototyping are busy with other projects.

All this started in the extremely popular "Youth Recreation Trend" thread on the Open Forum. It was really very exciting, because people were talking about a very simple, inexpensive, lightweight, cartoppable boat, that anybody can build in their garage, to introduce young children (ages 7-12) to catamarans.

And then the idea of a Formula 12 class came up. I assumed this meant the boats in that class would be 12 feet or less.

And then the discussion turned to a design for a specific boat that would be called an F12.

And the next thing you know, it turned out that the specific boat was actually going to be almost 13 feet long and will be as fast as Hobie 16's. And it is going to cost supposedly $3,000 even if you build it yourself? Whoa!

Am I the only one who sees something wrong with this picture?

Doesn't this totally defeat the purpose of starting a Formula 12 class, which was to keep the designs small and simple and light and home-buildable and inexpensive and relatively SLOW for the benefit of kids who have never even been on a sailboat before? And also inspire people to design and build their own boats within the Formula 12 parameters, if they ever happen?

Isn't the Formula 12 for kids supposed to be an alternative to the Optimist Dinghy? THAT is the competition (not the Hobie 16). And, obviously, any cat, no matter how primitive, is going to be faster and more fun than the Opti.

I am retracting my suggestion about a separate division for boats longer than 12 feet. Forget it. What was I thinking?? If there is going to be a Formula 12 class, it should be for boats at maximum 12 feet long, period.

It is pretty obvious, from the existing 12-footers in Australia, that it is possible to build good-performing boats within that length. If somebody wants to build a longer boat that is a lot faster, fine, but it should not be a Formula 12. And a Formula 12 Class should not be formed at all unless it has an upper parameter of 12-feet for length.

This is just my own opinion, of course. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />
P.S. If you want to review the Youth Receation Trend thread on the Open Forum, I have brought it back up to the top.

Mary,

does it matter so much wether the boat is 12feet or 12feet 10 inches when few of the other formula classes adhere to the same logic? For me it dont matter much, but if it will be a better boat with 12'10", then it sounds logical to choose the longer one.

What matters for me is the price of participating (building), handling (on/off cars, rigging AND sailing) and safety.

From what I have seen of the discussion, it should be possible to build such a boat for a lot less than US$3000 if you dont buy professionally made sails, trampolines and rudders. Homebuild might be almost as good (or better in some cases) and a lot cheaper. The loads on this boat is probably small enough to allow for ply/glass rudder construction.

I dont think further discussion will bring further positive elements forth. It's time to finish some designs and build them. But the usual ply "torturers" are busy with other projects. Perhaps Tad (Maughan) can be enticed to produce a prototype as he expressed interest. Or perhaps you could consider trying your hand with some boatbuilding? Building tramps and a sail would be a good project to test your new sewing machine. Stitch and glue building is fast and something everybody can do with reasonable results.

It does not matter what length of boat anybody designs and builds. All I am saying is that it does not make sense to create a Formula 12 class if you are not going to limit it to boats that are 12 feet or less.

Maybe a Formula 12 class is not needed at all. And that is probably the case.

I just don't want to see somebody create one that is for boats up to 13 feet long. That is like saying that for a Haiku poem it is okay to have 10 syllables in the second line.

What does the name of the beast matter? Getting some of these boats on the water is the important point at this stage.
Would you build one of these (at 12 feet) if you got a set of plans and a building description? I will, but not yet, as there is an F-16 brewing there..

To be a bit on-topic. I definately think it should be a formula class, not OD or SMOD. That way homebuilding and affordability will be a possibility wherever the 'class' might decide to go.

Exactly! But only if it is a 12-foot formula class. The smaller the boat, the greater the differences are with only small increments in length.

12'10" is a HUGE difference from 12'. No comparison in terms of performance and speed.

And, yes, I WILL try to build a boat if Phill is right about his simpler design, He said,



THIS idea is exciting, at least to me.

Hey, I have an idea. For the F12 Class I have this great design that can be home built and the first design was conceived in 1968.
It can be made of plywood at home. You can make your own sails and all.
And it is only 20 Ft long -- The Tornado. Heck it is only 8 ft longer than the 12' limit, but is is faster and can beat a Hobie 16.
Kids will love it!

No untrustworthy Graemlins from me!
Rick

Yeah, sarcasm is surely much more descriptive than the graemlins. Hard to miss out on that.
BTW: Tornado was designed in the autumn of 1967, not 1968. You should know..


What _IS_ this obsession with the length about? Make it 10 feet for all I care, but this is getting ridiculous. I tought the goal for the design was cheap, homebuildable, easily transported and FUN FUN FUN. This bickering over 10 inches of hull length is tearing the whole thing apart and I dont see any reason whatsoever for the hard positions. Is there some kind of hidden agenda or what?

"Is there some kind of hidden agenda or what?"

Okay, here's the agenda: if you are going to have a Formula 12'10" class, then I think it would be appropriate to grandfather in the Hobie Wave, which is only 2 inches longer.

If the performance is relatively similar, I dont see why not? I am pretty pragmatic about it, and better to be inclusive than divisive. It is in the same 'class/type' of boat, but I dont see it on top of a car or singlehanded by 8-10 years?

BTW: I dont consider it "my" class. I just think the F-12 too good to fizzle over this matter.

"Okay, here's the agenda: if you are going to have a Formula 12'10" class, then I think it would be appropriate to grandfather in the Hobie Wave, which is only 2 inches longer"

If that is the root of the problem, it would have been helpful if it had been brought up in the beginning of the discussion. The F16 Class "grandfathered" in boats that did not meet the strict criteria, some compromise might have been reached early on concerning this matter.

So if I read between the lines correctly, the disagreement over the 12' Vs the 12'-10" issue was just a ploy to keep the F12 performance level sub par when compared to the Hobie Wave. Insuring it would never be a serious threat to the Wave on the race course… There by protecting the established Wave one design class, and eliminating the threat of a F12 class that could offer a higher performance, less expensive alternative.

Bob

Wow, Bob, I never even thought of all that. Brilliant!

Actually, guys, I was just kidding about the Wave, because it would be ridiculous to have a 13-foot boat in a 12-foot formula class. Almost as ridiculous as a 12'10" boat.

Right.., If it is to be named "Formula 12 Class" then it should be 12' or under. Otherwise, you could simply name it the "Formula 13 Class!"
Hmmm! or would that be an unlucky number and destroy the class? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Or, heck, name it "George" but at least name it something it represents.

BY the way, The Wave at 13' with a bowsprit and roller furling Hooter is almost as fast as the H16. Add a trapeze and two kids would have a ball on a very substantial, bullet-proof, and very buoyant craft.

Check it out at http://www.catsailor.com/waves/superwave_overall.html
Rick

I have got an even better idea. Why not go after the F-16 class, with their 16'4" length, or the F-18 with their 18'1" length? Excuse me, but you seem a bit obsessive on the length question. Especially at this rather tender stage. Call it "Project George" and lets move on, or at least use arguments that mean something. There is nothing except some marketing in a name, but arguments like weight, speed, building process etc. really matters.
I'll repeat what I see as the primary goal of "the class" targeting 8-14 year olds:

formula 3.9 [color:"red"] F3.9 [/color] [color:"blue"]Formula3.9 [/color] [color:"orange"]f3dot9 [/color]

F3.9 Hell why not call it an F4, it'll be faster still and be able to take more weight than an F3.9, or maybe an F4.1, better still F4.2, or just maybe ......

Gareth

Unfortunately, the focus of a Formula 12 class is something that was never resolved, at least as far as I could tell, and there still seems to be a big division of opinions as to what the target market is and what kind of boat would best serve it.

There was a great deal of discussion about it on the Open Forum, but that all stopped when the Formula 12 Forum was opened. So I still feel kind of up in the air as to the goals and purpose of a Formula 12 class.

I was envisioning it for ages 7-12. I see Wouter's boat as more for ages 13-18 and adult, as well.

I envision a fairly slow, cute boat that tacks well.
Wouter's boat is designed for much higher performance and has a very high-tech look. Having a large rig and a small rig is fine, but I still think it is too much boat for the little kids.

I want something that I can build very inexpensively and have fully rigged for $900 or less.
Wouter's boat, even home-built, he said will be at least $3,000, which is way out of my price range.

I want something that is so easy to build that even I can do it. Wouter's boat looks too difficult for me to tackle.

I would like to see something that could be an alternative to the Opti in club programs.
Wouter's boat looks to me like it would be an alternative to the Laser in club programs.

I guess one of the problems, too, is that there don't seem to be any mothers with young children on this forum to give some perspective on what they would want for their children. In terms of the young children, what the mothers will go for is really the key to the whole thing.

In terms of the age range I see for Wouter's boat, the kids themselves are going to have more of a say in what they would like.

Mary, while getting kids started when they are young is important, I believe the formative years of sailing begins when parents begin to let their kids enjoy sailing on their own and unsupervised, which is probably somewhere around 12-13. My fondest memories of sailing in my youth were when I sailed out by the harbor entrance and routinely capsized our Flying Junior jumping and riding waves. That is where my real love of sailing began. Even then, I wanted more speed and I recall asking my dad if we could build a sailing proa (remember Crossbow?) which sounded thrilling. It would have been a thrill to have built a cat like this F12 with my dad.

I must confess, I like what Wouter is working on, whatever it’s called. It may be a little on the expensive side, but if its construction is truly short & simple, it may be well worth it.

This may be a crazy idea, but can we have two classes – a F11 & F12?

Wouter, not that I’m asking you to design it, but would it be possible to build an 11 foot cat that would meet the objectives Mary laid out – or is 11 feet just too short? If it was possible, the F11 could address the younger kids at a low cost & lower performance, and the F12 would address the teenage market - which I believe is important.

Bill Nieuwkerk

Bill,
Yes, actually, I would prefer 11 feet or even 10 feet -- the smaller the better (except for the problem with weight-carrying ability) -- because my belief is exactly the opposite of yours. The formative years start MUCH younger. By the time they are 12 or 13, they have other interests and activities, and you have lost them.

Kids need a boat they can singlehand when they are 7 or 8. That is why I have always said they should be started out in the Opti -- besides the fact that it is easier to learn on a monohull, it is very empowering for a young child to be the master of his or her own vessel. So let her take a few lessons on an Opti at the local sailing school, and then put her on the little cat

When they get into pre-teen and teen years is when they want to sail with friends, so it is important that they already be seasoned sailors by the time they get to that point.

P.S.
I was looking again at the pictures of the Arafura Cadet, which is only 11 feet, and that seems like it would work for all the age ranges.

I really agree with Mary, hook them while they are young and you keep them for life, as certain industries have proved. I also envision a 12 footer as a boat for the youngsters, as an alternative to the Optimist. I dont agree at all with the notion that youngsters should start out in the Optimist. Why send them trough such an experience? I dont understand why it is "easier to learn on a monohull"?

When they grow larger, the F-16 could be the next logical step (?).

I also agree with Mary and Rolf, there are allready a bunch of suitable cats for teenagers, but not for youngsters. So why bother with yet another one.

I think the 12ft F12 is a great idea for my 3 chidren age 5-10 (I'll leave the 7 month out of this discssion). They have an Oppie but I feel there are many advantages in a cat not least the greater stability.

I thought this is where the dscussion started and it then drifted toward a higher performance cats that could also be sailed by a lightweight adult. For which I see no need.

Gareth

Everything is possible, but the F11 would only be slower, not cheaper.

That is a concept that is not understood by several in this discussion. A rudder setup for a F12'10" is just as expensive as a rudder setup for a F10. Same goes for the ply used and the sail and the blocks used etc. Cutting the mast down from 6 mtr. to 4.5 meter will not save much money if it saves anything at all. You still have to buy standard lengths of tubing. If a F11 platform still needs 5 sheets of ply, same as the F12'10". The only difference is that at after the building is done you are left with more waste.

You guys are thinking far to much along irrational lines. Price is not always proportional with size, most often the prices changes with jumps like when an additional sheet of ply is needed or when the mast is longer then can be shipped using normal procedures. Going smaller therefor does not often make a product cheaper if the orginal setup was already making use of the cheaper setup.

The only real draw back of F11 is that you are both reducing overall weight (bouyancy) and hull length (pitch leverage) meaning that the sail area you can carry will reduce more then the length of the boat. And if you don't do that then the craft will be noticeably more difficult to handle or control in any breeze. Neither of which is very attractive in giving a well behaved craft to young children. And chances are that you'll spend just as much money.

So summarizing : same money investment, much less performance and worse control behaviour if you are not careful.

Wouter

Ok, that leaves two questions on the difference between 12'10" and 12'.
What will the weight difference of the complete package be (and what weight will mum have to lift on to the roof of the car) and what will optimum crew weight for the two different lengths be?

I recall (in the 20 or so times I've re-read all these threads) 0.6kg per hull difference between 3.66 and 3.9m length.

I just re-read the post about crew weights yesterday, and he said for the smaller boat the crew weight would range from 31 to 50 kg, with 43 kg being optimal.

For the bigger boat, crew weight range is 49-72 kg, with 63 kg being optimal.

Keep in mind that only applies to his particular design and is not necessarily true of other designs. It sounds like the Australian boats carry a lot more weight than that.

0.6kg per hull.. Well if that is the case the weight difference is no big issue. How about minimum crew weight to handle the boat? What would the difference between the two "proposals" be there?

Not necassarily only with a certian hull shape, it will be harder to aheive the same pitch resistance granted but....

Also you can change the aspect ratio of the sails, to give you the same pitch resistence for the same sail area. There are lots of things you can do.

The same argumant you are using to extend 12 to 12'10" can be used for going to 13' or 13'2" etc

I am interested how many sheets of ply do you require to make your F12 design.

Gareth

Grob

Wouter just answered that up a couple of posts....

"If a F11 platform still needs 5 sheets of ply, same as the F12'10". The only difference is that at after the building is done you are left with more waste."

Well if thats true then this is one of the disadvantages of an 12"10' boat as you can get two hulls for a 12" boat out of just 3 sheets of ply. So you are saving 2 sheets of ply and a whole bunch of cutting.

The reason being is that (as has been said many times before on this forum) You can get 12ft length out of 1.5 sheets of ply (3mx1.5m).

Gareth

I've only came across 2.5 x 1.25 mtr and 8'x4' ply sheets. And so that is what I used in my 5 sheet quote. This is the very reason why a Timber Taipan is 4.96 mtr long instead of 5.0 mtr.

If 3.0 x 1.5 mtr. are available then the F12'10" can be build from 3 sheets as well.

Listen up guys. Don't wander around with your eyes closed. The difference between 12 foot and 12'10" is ONLY 10 inches ! For the longer hull you only need 0.40 sq. mtr more ply in total = ONLY 6.5 % more ply. That is not a big area AT ALL.

And I've been telling you many times before. There will never be more then a single sheet of ply difference between both design. As the shipping cost will remain the same and such the longer hull is at the very maximum 50 Euro's more expensive. That is IF the 12 foot hull can be made using one sheet less, which is really doubtful as the difference in material usage is so small (6.5 %).

Is this really so hard to understand ?

The difference between 12 and 12'10" is by far too small in the areas of costs, weight and of ease building to matter.

But it isn't too small to matter in the areas of performance, dive resistance, control and sail carrying ability.


Wouter

Please show me your math grob...
Based on Johns cad drawing posted on the other thread, which everyone seem to like for the most part… the 12'-0" F12 you would need
4 Pieces 12-1/2"X 8'-0" for the decks
8 Pieces 14” X 8’-0” for the hull sides
8 Pieces 7-1/2” X 8’-0” for the bottom panels.
2 Pieces 12-1/2” X 8’-0” for two bulkheads per hull and the transoms.

Now lets just forget about the fact that all these pieces have to be cut in one piece from a 4’ wide piece of plywood for now…which is a huge issue…lets just add all the pieces together
4 X 12-1/2” =50 inches
8 X 14” =112 inches
8 X 7-1/2” =60 inches
2 X 12-1/2” = 25 inches
247 inches Divided by 48” = 5.14sheets
49-7/32” =5.02 sheets
Even giving you the fact that you will save material by nesting the parts, you will need most of that just to get the boat cut out of five sheets.

Some are saying we will keep it 12’ so there is only one joint between the 8’ panel and the four foot panel…did you forget about the 7X the thickness for the scarf joint? Lost another 13/16, and another 1/8” for the saw cut when you cut the panel in half to get the 4’ long pieces…and then there is the curve in the bottom and the sides, both of which will shorten the overall length, the most drastic curve will dictate the length of the boat…so now we are a couple of inches shy of 12’…oh but we can go thru the trouble to scarf the plywood again to add that couple of inches back on, but it was too much trouble to scarf 10” ….

I will say if you are using metric plywood the length will not be an issue, since it is slightly longer at 49-7/32” X 8’-2”. For those of us in the US, going to Home Depot for common exterior plywood (not recomended), you will definitely run into this problem.

If one would step back and look at the benefits objectively, they would be hard pressed to come to any conclusion other than to go for the increased length.

Regards,
Bob

To a 7- or 8-year-old child do you know how BIG a 13-foot cat looks compared to an 8-foot, pram-nosed dinghy? Even a 12-foot cat is kind of pushing it for the little kids. I'm trying to keep an open mind about it and am willing to experiment on my grandkids to find out whether a 12-footer is too big.

Maybe children are bigger in the Netherlands. My two oldest grandchildren only weigh about 60 pounds each, and the oldest one just turned 11. Most of the kids we know are pretty skinny.

My step-grandchildren include a 17-year-old boy who weighs 135 lbs and a 15-year-old girl who weighs 110 lbs. They both know how to sail but are too involved now in all their other sports activities.

Maybe I am just not thinking "heavy" enough. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

"My step-grandchildren include a 17-year-old boy who weighs 135 lbs and a 15-year-old girl who weighs 110 lbs. They both know how to sail but are too involved now in all their other sports activities."

When my son was in high school one of the kids on the sailing team (420s) was 14 or 15 years old 6' tall and about 205lbs...He was the youngest guy on the team, and one of the best sailors on the team. Kids come in all sizes...a slightly bigger platform would help keep the bigger kids in the mix.

Remember if it’s a formula class you can build a boat tailored to your Childs physical characteristics. If 12'-10" seems too intimidating you can always built one 12'-0" or even smaller... But if the platform limits are set too small some of the bigger and/or older kids might not get a chance to participate.

Regards,
Bob

Going back to the US weight and stature for age charts.

Mary,
The 17 y.o. boy and 15 y.o. girl are both at 37 and 40 percentile (compared to average)

Bob,
WHAT THE HELL WERE THEY FEEDING HIM? At age 15 (high side) he was well off the chart for weight and at 96 percentile for height!

The 11 y.o. young lady I'd like to have sail this boat is at the 80 percentile for weight (100 pounds)

And round and round and round and round and round we go !

Wouter

Boy ain't that the truth <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> I was just trying to man the battlestations for awhile <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

"WHAT THE HELL WERE THEY FEEDING HIM? At age 15 (high side) he was well off the chart for weight and at 96 percentile for height!"

He was a big kid...not a fat kid...his dad is 6'-6"

As far as those weight charts...I think some of those lower weights in the "normal" range look more like heroine sheik...

Regards,
Bob

I don't know why everybody keeps talking as though there has to be just one boat to fit all. That is impossible, especially when talking about kids and the dramatic changes they go through from ages 7 to 18. (Cripe, look at the huge variety of cats we adults have to choose from.)

Wouter's boat sounds perfect, as I keep saying, for the older kids and for adults. What's wrong with that?

It seems logical that we need at least two boats: a smaller, lower-performance boat for the little kids and Wouter's boat for the older kids.

So what is the problem?

One group should work on Wouter's concept and build a prototype, and another group should work on the 12-foot or 11-foot concept and build a prototype for that.

Until boats are built and some market testing is done, all this is conjecture and theory. None of us REALLY know what kids are going to like, regardless of their age category.

It would probably help if we just forget about the Formula 12 class idea, since the boats within the class are probably never going to be able to race against each other boat for boat anyway, and just concentrate on a couple of very different one-design boats for two different, basic age categories and purposes.

It might turn out that we need an 8-foot boat or a 9-foot boat or a 10-foot boat. So it is probably silly to think about formula at this point. Let's make some boats that float and see what works, as far as the kids are concerned. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> That IS what this is all about, isn't it?

My mistake I meant to use the 2.5mx 1.25m ply in my example, you can build a 12ft boat from 3 sheets of that. But it takes 5 to build your 12'10". 5-2 is 2 sheets by my reckoning. I am sure you could build 12"10'from 4, but thats not your design is it?

The only one who is blind to the argument is you, sure you can build a boat that carries more power or weight if it is bigger , that argument applies to any boat no matter how long. But the whole point of this is that you can build a boat that has enough buoyancy and sail for children at 12ft. There are already enough boats to cater for teenagers its just not needed in my opinion.

I will wait to see Phils design.

Gareth

Straw man argument.

Hell, I can even build a 6 foot box out of a single sheet of ply that will float children about. Stick a handkerchief on a broomstick and call it a sailboat. Why don't we do that ?

Well, unlike some others here I also try to satisfy some other design goals like making a nice link up with larger catamarans and having enough attractiveness to have kids come back and stick with sailing. Or have we all forgotten how several youth program leaders told us how the kids and even instructors used to fight over the FASTER catamarans while the small and save mono's were ignored ?

I'm not looking to make an imitation bravo or catsy. What would be the point, these boats already exist ? (and most likely don't work well enough to compete with the mono competition)

Seems to me some of you guys just want these bravo's and catsy's but then only pay US$ 900 instead of the US$ 2745 charges for the Bravo.

You want to have your cake and eat it too.

Obviously that is not going to happen.

But hey, if you feel that I'm blind and giving you bad advice then so be it ... afterall it is your time and money that will be wasted not mine.


Wouter

Great idea Mary !

The width of the two cat hulls will be so wide that you don't even need beams to secure the two hulls to eachother. You can just lash them together. Another cost saver !

It will be like a heavier optimist (because it has decks) with a wall running through the middle of the hull.

Keep the good idea's flowing everybody !

Wouter

You ask for peoples opinions then you get the hump and say "I quit" when those opinions are contradictory to your own. This project was never going to go anywhere with you at the helm with an attitude like that.

Gareth

Been really busy, so I would like to quickly state my feelings and vote for the direction of the project. I feel that a vmg boat would be best suited for children 13 and up. There are 1000s of slow under performing monos and pretty much anything hobie makes would work. They can be had cheap used. My experience tell me that even the richest parents are not going to spend even 3000$ for a 7-13 year old to have a high performance sailboat. Especially if they can’t sail the boat. I would like my full size friends and crew to be able to use it as well because they are not ready for a full on racing cat yet.

But name me a high performance boat for 13 and up year olds 3000$???

Rick Claims says the Wave is as fast as a H16 with a hooter. Well lets compaire prices. A wave is 4,295 plus a 200 delivery fee. Plus tax comes to 4860. Plus whatever rick charges for a hooter. I would guess he charges 700$, maybe more with all the blocks and pole. So that its 5560. The wave is wider and I have yet to see someone cartop one, or hear of someone doing it. So add 550 for a trailer. 6110. Plus, I am not sure that that F12 needs beach wheels, but the wave does. 6510. or 217%.

It might be a great boat, but it is not comparable. No boat is, that is the point.

Probably won’t get a chance to post for a while. So please keep my vote in mind, as I would like to participate in the class in the future. My 7-13 year old kids will not be getting a new boat though. Assuming they even want to sail, which I am not sure they will.

Thank you, Wouter.

I think the Catyak is 8 or 9 feet, and I am going to try to find one, because then I won't have to build a boat. I know it will carry a large adult, because a friend of ours used to have one, and he was at least 6'5" tall.

The Boy Scouts received achievement patches for sailing in the Catyak Nationals back in 1975.

**** arguments going round and round and round and round and round and round ....

But what really got to me was the fact that the persons peddling these arguments thought that they had something valuable to add to the discussions and demanded to be treated nicely for being busy making the discussion going round and round and round and round and round ...





And I'm sitting first row to see how succesful it will be without me by going round and round and round and round ..... . <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Wouter

It will be more confortable moving it about that way. But because of ligtweightness it can use a piece of alu tubing and two plain wheel barrel tires. Total cost 60 euro's. Homebuild in under 60 minutes

Wouter

Mary,

Any object with more then 100 liter volume enclosed in itself will carry an adult. That is not the point. The point is that it also needs to go somewhere under sailpower. And safety requirements alone demand that it does so relatively efficiently. Otherwise the boat won't be able to sail clear of the being trapped at a (rocky with big surf) leeward shore when the wind pipes up.

The slower the boat is made the more difficult it is to make the boat point and the more easily you can get into trouble. Do the math and modelling and find out for yourself.

Maybe we should design a peddle system to go with that F10 or F11 so kids can paddle to safety ?

Wouter

Excellent idea! I've been wondering how mom is going to retrieve them when they get out of range. I was thinking she might have to put a long tether on the boat.

<******** arguments, all the arguments I have heard are valid opinions (inlcuding yours) I think that everyone has had something valuable to add. Whats with the "persons" I am not sure who you have a problem with if its me please say so.


Gareth

Well, I know it wasn't me, then, because I have never demanded to be treated nicely, and certainly did not expect to be. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

**** argument there.


Wouter

But, Wouter, your boat will handle all the weights, so there is no debate about that. I don't know why you would not just proceed with it. It sounds perfect for the target market of 13-18.

The debate is about the younger kids and the little kids and maybe even older kids who are total newbies to sailing and need a slower, less intimidating boat to start out on.

The ONLY objection I had was to calling your design a Formula 12. If you want to call it a Typhoon 12, I wouldn't have any objection at all. SOUNDS more interesting, too.

Then if a Formula Class 12 is formed, it could be decided whether or not to grandfather in the Typhoon 12, just as was done with the Formula 16 class.

And, as I have already said, right now I don't really see much point in having a Formula 12 class at all for racing purposes, because the diversity of boats might be way too great to have any straight-up racing.

To me, it seems like the debate is more like a chicken-and-egg situation -- should we have a Formula 12 class and decide on the parameters and let people design and build within those parameters? Or should we design a boat and then set the parameters of the class based upon that boat?

I think that is what is causing all the "round-and-round" discussion.

Who says that that design hasn't proceeded ?

Wouter

I thought you said you quit.

My head is spinning. Arrrggghhh!!!


Soon the kids will be dizzy too!

Yes I quit this public project for an F12, which is not the same as my personal F12 project.


Wouter

Are you prepared to define what you consider to be sufficient freeboard?

Gareth

Good. I think trying to design a boat with public input has to be almost impossible, whether for children or for adults, because 20 different people are going to have 20 different ideas and opinions. It's sort of like trying to write a song by committee.

<**** argument there.

Grob, maybe I missed it somewhere, but how long is your design?

12ft

Gareth

Okay now we are getting back into the science of things. Great !





My hulls are

3.66 (12 feet)

250 mm wide
458 mm tall
265 liters volume per hull.

Surface area of hull including bulkheads is 5.038 dsq. mtr. (this includes only 2 ply bulkheads under the beams with a combined area of 0.128 sq. mtr.

Freeboard when sailed by 65 kg crew (65 kg platform) is 458-(188 + 58) mm = 212 mm and I don't want to have less then this as freeboard. I know this from experience on my Taipan that also has its hulls at 450 mm height at max point.


So the question is where do you "loose" 5.038 - 0.128 - 4.15 = 0.76 sq. mtr. surface area per hull ?

From the picture it appears you can only win this by having the keel panel angled upwards at a relatively great angle, but this till really decrease the freeboard when sailing on one hull.



My 3.90 mtr hull (12'10")

236 mm wide
455 mm tall
265 liters volume per hull.

Surface area of hull including bulkheads is 5.214 dsq. mtr. (this includes only 2 ply bulkheads under the beams with a combined area of 0.133 sq. mtr.

Freeboard when sailed by 65 kg crew (65 kg platform) is 455-(189+55) mm = 211 mm and again I don't want to have less then this as freeboard.



As you can see the difference is surface area PER HULL between the two boats is 5.214-5.038 = 0.176 = 3.5 % When done in 4 mm ply this causes a weight difference of 0.45 kg per hull.


The two hull design are so close in length that no additional reinforcements will be necessary to the 3.90 hull in comparison to the 3.66 hull

Additionally my designs now have a 3rd ply bulkhead in the bow, but as the hull is rather narrow they will have a very small surface area of 0.093 sq. mtr.


The picture showing the waterlines is of the 3.66 (12 foot) hull but the 3.90 hull looks exactly the same, including where the waterlines are. As I said earlier I developped both simultaniously.




As can be seen my design has a relatively flat keel. I'm trying to approximate the fat keels of the modern "wave-piercers" as to maximize pitch resistance and hopefully allow some planing at the higher speeds. Also a fat keel line helps keep the freeboard up.

The upper waterline is with a single hull carrying all the weight (flying the other hull) and the lower waterline is when both hulls are flat in the water.

Wouter