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Re: Commercial Blades (Vectorworks & Dynautic) [Re: Mirjam] #97346
03/15/07 03:33 AM
03/15/07 03:33 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
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Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe

Well, we'll see both builds next to one another at the Zandvoort event in 5 months time so we can indeed directly compare the two.

Mirjam, are you coming ?

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
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Re: Commercial Blades (Vectorworks & Dynautic) [Re: Wouter] #97347
03/15/07 07:22 AM
03/15/07 07:22 AM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 14
M
Mirjam Offline
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Mirjam  Offline
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No experience sailing on the North-sea and no time, perhaps my father will be there.

Re: Commercial Blades (Vectorworks & Dynautic) [Re: Buccaneer] #97348
03/15/07 07:25 AM
03/15/07 07:25 AM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 14
M
Mirjam Offline
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Mirjam  Offline
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Nothing vaque about it. Just a couple of cosmetic differences.

Re: Commercial Blades (Vectorworks & Dynautic) [Re: Mirjam] #97349
03/16/07 04:02 AM
03/16/07 04:02 AM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,479
Thailand
Buccaneer Offline
veteran
Buccaneer  Offline
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Thailand
Quote
Nothing vaque about it. Just a couple of cosmetic differences.


Is "No thanks vs YES please!" a cosmetic deference or are you expressing an opinion based on something? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />


"House prices have risen by nearly 25 percent over the past two years. Although speculative activity has increased in some areas, at a national level these price increases largely reflect strong economic fundamentals." – Ben Bernanke – 2005
Re: Commercial Blades (Vectorworks & Dynautic) [Re: Mirjam] #97350
03/16/07 04:22 AM
03/16/07 04:22 AM
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 221
Netherlands
Hans_Ned_111 Offline
enthusiast
Hans_Ned_111  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 221
Netherlands
Quote:???
1. screws vs nuts n bolts
x bulkheads vs more bulkheads
x stringers vs more stringers

Mirjam,
If have to make a comment on this but you are saying on point 1 screws vs nuts and bolts but you did not see the European style VWM Blade yet i think.
About the bulkheads and stringers it looks to me that you know how the VWM hulls are build but before you saying this please be carefull with that because you obviously don't know how they are build.
It is not difficult to have comments on something but if you do there must be a good foundation for it, i personally think.

Regards,
Hans

Re: Commercial Blades (Vectorworks & Dynautic) [Re: Mirjam] #97351
03/16/07 10:45 AM
03/16/07 10:45 AM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 98
Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
WillLints Offline
journeyman
WillLints  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 98
Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
The proof is in the pudding. Until some one sails a Dynautic against a Vectorworks, it's all opinion.


Will_Lints
one-up, Blade 706, epoxy bottoms
Re: Commercial Blades (Vectorworks & Dynautic) [Re: WillLints] #97352
03/16/07 12:26 PM
03/16/07 12:26 PM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 695
Ft. Pierce, Fl. USA
Seeker Offline
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Seeker  Offline
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Vectorworks molds were shaped by a 5 axis CNC router, were the Dynautic molds?

Regards,
Bob

Re: Commercial Blades (Vectorworks & Dynautic) [Re: Seeker] #97353
03/17/07 03:46 AM
03/17/07 03:46 AM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,479
Thailand
Buccaneer Offline
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Buccaneer  Offline
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Posts: 1,479
Thailand
Just guessing but maybe that would explain the "Round keel vs flat keel" approach… <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />


"House prices have risen by nearly 25 percent over the past two years. Although speculative activity has increased in some areas, at a national level these price increases largely reflect strong economic fundamentals." – Ben Bernanke – 2005
Re: Commercial Blades (Vectorworks & Dynautic) [Re: Buccaneer] #97354
03/17/07 09:17 AM
03/17/07 09:17 AM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 4
cv8r Offline
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cv8r  Offline
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Posts: 4
If the boats are within a few percent in speed, it will be the best skipper that wins. If you want people to think your boat is the best, don't worry too much about building it the best, just make sure you put the best skippers on it.

Lets face it, a skipper looking to enter the F16 class with a view to winning is most likely to buy whatever boat is winning the most regatta's. They won't be looking to see which boat has the most bulkheads and could care less if the mold was made from a plywood plug or a milled foam plug.

Re: Commercial Blades (Vectorworks & Dynautic) [Re: cv8r] #97355
03/17/07 08:06 PM
03/17/07 08:06 PM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 695
Ft. Pierce, Fl. USA
Seeker Offline
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Winners in every area of life know that winning is in the details. If one could get a mathematically accurate hull from a plug with extreme accuracy in symmetry, and a true representation of the designers concept, I would say all things being equal, a "winner would seek out such an advantage. While your "average" sailor would blow it off as unimportant. Yes top sailors could win most races on a door, broom stick and sheet for a sail...but when top competitors are competing against each other they look for every advantage.

Regards,
Bob

Re: Commercial Blades (Vectorworks & Dynautic) [Re: Hans_Ned_111] #97356
03/18/07 06:26 AM
03/18/07 06:26 AM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 14
M
Mirjam Offline
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Mirjam  Offline
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M
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I'm just mentioning some differences between Dynautic and the boat I've seen in Katwijk some time ago I must add. I've also seen pictures from Florida before you were a dealer. From the info I have seen I noted the differences. As pictures speak louder than words....

P.S. Was this a personal, chairman, dealer or orginiser comment?

Re: Commercial Blades (Vectorworks & Dynautic) [Re: Mirjam] #97357
03/18/07 09:11 AM
03/18/07 09:11 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
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Posts: 9,582
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Mirjan,

Quote

P.S. Was this a personal, chairman, dealer or orginiser comment?



Were is this line of reasoning exactly going to ?

I've seen both makes in detail and I can name a few more differences not all in favour of the Dynautic Blade. Afterall no boat is ever perfect.

The European style VWM Blade F16 (version 2007) Hans is referring to is not the same as the 2005 VWM Blade F16 you saw at Noordwijk. Hans used his many years of experience in boat building and repairs to arrive at this 2007 version of the VWM Blade F16. There are some very clever things incorporated in this new version. Things like platform stiffness have been doubled.

You can not possibly know the make-up of this 2007 version of the Blade F16 or even of the 2006 version of it. Therefor your comments like :"bulkheads vs more bulkheads" are remarkable to say the least.

I can testify that Hans is correct in all his comments so far and that your statements are less so.

Who are you exactly ?

And I made these statement in name of all the roles I have played in the past. Chairman, organisor, part time dealor, advisor to both VWM and Dynautic, and the rest.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Commercial Blades (Vectorworks & Dynautic) [Re: Wouter] #97358
03/18/07 10:49 AM
03/18/07 10:49 AM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 14
M
Mirjam Offline
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Mirjam  Offline
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M
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Posts: 14
I didn't see any boat in Noordwijk but in Katwijk. The boats owner is called Jaap as I've been told. According to my information you have been at Dynautic in 2004. At that time no composite Blade was present at Dynautic, so what are you talking about knowing Dynautic's products?
Your reaction is exactly what I've expected.
Why are the previous chairman and current chairman located at the same sailing club?
I personally think, there is a conflict of interest when a dealer is a chairman of an organisation and an organiser of an event. Even more when a relative of the dealing, organising chairman does the so called measuring of the boats.
I wasn't aware of any changes made in 2005 or 2006, so you are admitting the previous sold boats weren't that good afterall.
I'm just a student with ears and a memory.

Mirjam

Re: Commercial Blades (Vectorworks & Dynautic) [Re: Mirjam] #97359
03/18/07 01:18 PM
03/18/07 01:18 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe

Quote

I didn't see any boat in Noordwijk but in Katwijk.


That is true. Jaap H. is a member there, my typo.


Quote

According to my information you have been at Dynautic in 2004.


That is not correct.

And alot more has happened then just having been there.


Quote

At that time no composite Blade was present at Dynautic, so what are you talking about knowing Dynautic's products?


It is only you who is talking about 2004, not me.

With respect to the non-timber Blade, I have not seen that one in person, but then again who did ?


Quote

Why are the previous chairman and current chairman located at the same sailing club?


Like I said earlier were is this line of reasoning going to ?


Quote

I personally think, there is a conflict of interest when a dealer is a chairman of an organisation and an organiser of an event.


This didn't bother Dynautic when I was doing the exact same things in relation to them.


Quote

Even more when a relative of the dealing, organising chairman does the so called measuring of the boats.



You got yourt answer there. Any Watersport verbond measurer can do your boat. In laymans terms, you can choice any measurer you want, Pieter Saarberg happens to be a long time measurer of the Watersport verbond, it would have been downright silly to ban him from measuring F16's.

Quote

I wasn't aware of any changes made in 2005 or 2006, so you are admitting the previous sold boats weren't that good afterall.


Are you claiming that the first boats by Dynautic were [censored] because they are now launching a totally redesigned carbon version ?


Quote

I'm just a student with ears and a memory.



It is very nice of you to remind us of these traits, but I don't think anyone argued otherwise.

My question still remains.

Were are you going with this line of reasoning ?

If you have problems with the way things have turned as the are then please come to the zandvoort event and argue you case in front of the class members and people you accuse of having conflicts of interests. Currently you are nothing more then an anonymous handle on an internet forum. This is a status wholly unsatisfactory for the insinuations you are making.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Commercial Blades (Vectorworks & Dynautic) [Re: Wouter] #97360
03/18/07 01:36 PM
03/18/07 01:36 PM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 14
M
Mirjam Offline
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Mirjam  Offline
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M
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Posts: 14
Come to Dynautic on tuesday 12:00 so you can meet me in person.
Tell me how to become a chairman and take my worries away.

Mirjam, just as ananymous as the rest of the forum.

Re: Commercial Blades (Vectorworks & Dynautic) [Re: Mirjam] #97361
03/18/07 01:54 PM
03/18/07 01:54 PM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,584
+31NL
Tony_F18 Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Tony_F18  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,584
+31NL
Quote
Come to Dynautic on tuesday 12:00 so you can meet me in person...

LOL, "I challenge thou to a duel!" <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

(Guns or swords? (Blades?))

Re: Commercial Blades (Vectorworks & Dynautic) [Re: Tony_F18] #97362
03/18/07 03:19 PM
03/18/07 03:19 PM
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 221
Netherlands
Hans_Ned_111 Offline
enthusiast
Hans_Ned_111  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 221
Netherlands
Mirjam,
When i did answer your first post i thought , this is giving some discussion but oke.When you put something down you must be having a good background for it and in my upinion you did not had that so i made the response.
I will answer the points you are reffering to , so the air will be cleared.

Quote: Why are the previous chairman and current chairman located at the same sailing club.

I don't know why we are both members of the same club and he is driving a Nissan and i drive a Ford, i am member for 22 years of that club and Wouter became also member. So i don't see your point here.

Quote: I personally think, there is a conflict of interest when a dealer is a chairman of an organisation.

Yes i am trying to sell the VWM build hulls/boats and i think i am making good boats.Yes i am chairman of the F16GC
but you forget that i am not making the decisions on my own but i am controlled by the other members of the Governing Council and that there is a good coörporation between these people to make the F16 class a proffesional class and not to make the bussiness of somebody bigger.

QUOTE: and an organiser of an event

No, i am not organising the Global Challenge 2007 but the sailing club WVZ is organising the event.Yes, i do some advising to organisers to make the event as good as possible for the F16 boats, so that all the sailors who will come over make the event to a succes.

QUOTE:Even more when a relative of the dealing, organising chairman does the so called measuring of the boats.

No,i am not doing the measurement/checking of the boats because i am not a measurer and have nothing to say about the measurements during the event. That's the reason why there is a chief measurer at the event. So i don't know who did tell you that i do the measurement but that person is wrong.

I think everything is clear for everybody now and that if you want to now more than ,again, please contact me and i will try to answer your questions.


Best regards,

Hans Klok

Web : http://www.catamaranparts.nl
Blog : http://catamaranparts.blogspot.nl
Mail : info@catamaranparts.nl

Raptor F16 and A-class builder
Re: Commercial Blades (Vectorworks & Dynautic) [Re: Mirjam] #97363
03/18/07 04:26 PM
03/18/07 04:26 PM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 465
Oxford, UK
pdwarren Offline
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pdwarren  Offline
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Posts: 465
Oxford, UK
Quote

I personally think, there is a conflict of interest when a dealer is a chairman of an organisation and an organiser of an event. Even more when a relative of the dealing, organising chairman does the so called measuring of the boats.


Oh please! Boat builders and dealers have an interest in the promotion of the classes that they sell boats into. Everywhere you go in this sport you will find dealers and builders doing a huge amount of voluntary work to promote the classes that we enjoy sailing in. Last time I went to a UK F18 Nationals, it was sponsored by Hobie. Conflict of interest? The F18 international secretary general was, until recently, the UK Nacra representative. Conflict of interest?

Exactly what sort of conspiracy do you think is going on here? I bought my VWM Blade from Catamaranparts before the F16 association was formed, and before the Zandvoort event was even conceived. Are you seriously suggesting that there is some arrangement whereby VWM ship us slightly over-sized main sails or something so that us VWM Blade sailors can get a tiny, fractional advantage at this one event? Or is there some great conspiracy between Hans and the Zandvoort race committee to set courses that somehow favour VWM Blades over Dynautic Blades?

Or is your conspiracy theory more financial? That Piet Saarburg is going to retire on the proceeds of measuring F16s at Zandvoort, perhaps?

This class is run by volunteers, so rather than sitting around making up conspiracy theories about those people who are actually doing real work to get the class up and running, why not give them a hand and help out.

Paul

Re: Commercial Blades (Vectorworks & Dynautic) [Re: Mirjam] #97364
03/18/07 04:38 PM
03/18/07 04:38 PM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 465
Oxford, UK
pdwarren Offline
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pdwarren  Offline
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Posts: 465
Oxford, UK
Quote
I wasn't aware of any changes made in 2005 or 2006, so you are admitting the previous sold boats weren't that good afterall.


Yep, that's right! Just like the reason Hobie bring out minor refinements to the Tiger each year is because all the previous ones are crap.

Actually, it could be that VWM have now sold a decent number of Blades and have seen them sailed around the world in a wide range of conditions for several years and as a result the design has been refined and improved. I assume that the Dynautic Blades are perfect from the outset, and that there will never be any room for improvement.

Quote
Mirjam, just as ananymous as the rest of the forum.


No, somewhat more anonymous than the rest of the forum. Everyone else on this forum is open about their interests in particular boats. What exactly is your relationship to Dynautic?

Paul

Re: Commercial Blades (Vectorworks & Dynautic) [Re: Mirjam] #97365
03/19/07 06:07 AM
03/19/07 06:07 AM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 285
C
Catfan Offline
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Catfan  Offline
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C
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 285
< Some Differences between Vectorworks and Dynautic Blades.
Vinylester vs Epoxy, Glass vs Carbon, Round keel vs flat keel etc. >

What about price?
My guess for the Vectorworks Blade is EUR 13.000 (VAT included).
With all that carbon and the very expensive Shake Design carbon foils my estimate for the Dynautic Blade is EUR 16.000.
Does anyone know the right figures?
A wise price to performance ratio plays an important role in any boat choice.
I do not think that more carbon (on a relatively heavy boat such as the F16) should represent a seizable "quantum leap forward" in bootspeed

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