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Re: Single handed boats get that way. [Re: jpayers] #97610
01/29/07 08:37 PM
01/29/07 08:37 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,303
South Carolina
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,303
South Carolina
I think that doing your penance just before the end started in match racing.


Jake Kohl
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: "instant justice in the sand" [Re: Mark Schneider] #97611
01/29/07 09:06 PM
01/29/07 09:06 PM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 395
LA
Acat230 Offline
enthusiast
Acat230  Offline
enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 395
LA
Quote
Hi Bob

Was the beach justice meeting written about following this procedure

16. ARBITRATION
All protests involving rules of Part 2 of the RRS shall be first submitted to arbitration. The arbitration procedure will be posted on the Official Regatta Notice Board as an addendum to the Sailing Instructions. This changes RRS Rule 63.

or were the two individuals way beyond arbitration and now in the protest meeting stage.

Sounds like a combination of peer pressure and arbitration could handle john's complaint about frivoulous protests.



I really don't know. I think it was a "formal" hearing because the protesting sailor wrote out the protest form and submitted it and the protest was heard just like any other protest except it was outside.

Re: Single handed boats get that way. [Re: jpayers] #97612
01/29/07 09:15 PM
01/29/07 09:15 PM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 395
LA
Acat230 Offline
enthusiast
Acat230  Offline
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LA
Quote
Have noticed that single handed sailors have very narrow minds on who was at fault. The first thing they check when they touch a mark is if anyone saw them.


J.P.Ayers
Isotope 186


Has your generalization above not suggested every singlehanded sailor in this country is a cheater? I think you should clarify as personally, I'm insulted. Maybe that's the case in the Isotope class but very isolated in the A-class and I believe that is one the positive things drawing more sailors to the boat. A new sailor at the Midwinters last week told me it was as much the class as it was the boat that convinced him to purchase one. That made me feel real good about how others see us.

Bob Hodges

Re: Single handed boats get that way. [Re: Acat230] #97613
01/30/07 08:23 AM
01/30/07 08:23 AM
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 116
41.32 N, 81.35 W
Stuart_Douglas Offline
member
Stuart_Douglas  Offline
member
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 116
41.32 N, 81.35 W
As one who is looking to get into cat sailing, and possibly racing, this makes for an enlightening read. While there is much camaraderie demonstrated on this forum, I find it troubling to read this and hear that there is some lacking in sportsmanship when racing. Competitiveness is great, but tossing your moral compass overboard simply to finish higher completely devalues any result you achieve.

This whole discussion makes me wonder whether my wife and I will ever end up doing any racing at all. If events like those described here are at all regular, I suspect we'll opt for just romping around on our own and not worrying about it.

Re: Single handed boats get that way. [Re: Stuart_Douglas] #97614
01/30/07 08:52 AM
01/30/07 08:52 AM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
Mary Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mary  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
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Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
Stuart,
It is hard to think of a sport where there aren't people who "cheat" or try to take advantage of the rules in every way they can. Sailing is probably one of the sports with the least infractions. And at least sailors don't usually get accused of taking steroids. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

P.S. If you are sailing in small groups, generally a person who is causing problems will be talked to, reprimanded or whatever is necessary to get them to follow the rules properly if they want to continue racing in that group.

Last edited by Mary; 01/30/07 08:54 AM.
Re: Single handed boats get that way. [Re: Stuart_Douglas] #97615
01/30/07 10:11 AM
01/30/07 10:11 AM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 395
LA
Acat230 Offline
enthusiast
Acat230  Offline
enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 395
LA
Quote
As one who is looking to get into cat sailing, and possibly racing, this makes for an enlightening read. While there is much camaraderie demonstrated on this forum, I find it troubling to read this and hear that there is some lacking in sportsmanship when racing. Competitiveness is great, but tossing your moral compass overboard simply to finish higher completely devalues any result you achieve.

This whole discussion makes me wonder whether my wife and I will ever end up doing any racing at all. If events like those described here are at all regular, I suspect we'll opt for just romping around on our own and not worrying about it.


Stuart,

I believe you are making the wrong assumptions. In my experience racing catamarans, the sailors are pretty good at observing the major right of way rules and I find the attitude on the race course is way more tolerant and "professional" than you'll find elsewhere. I've gotten more than one comment from yacht club race committees about how much easier it is to run an event for multihull sailors and the high level of sportmanship that is typically displayed.

What I think has been referred to above are petty protests against race committees and redress requests that can tend to sour an event.

The better the fleet, the less possibility for protests as the sailors are more knowledgeable and experienced and just avoid situations that could lead to a rules infraction.

Hope this encourages you to join the multihull racing ranks, it's some of the best racing you can do.

Bob Hodges

Re: Single handed boats get that way. [Re: Stuart_Douglas] #97616
01/30/07 10:14 AM
01/30/07 10:14 AM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 885
Crofton, MD
Chris9 Offline
old hand
Chris9  Offline
old hand
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 885
Crofton, MD
First, you will learn sailing, much faster by racing, even if it is in a mixed fleet. If you are worried about getting lapped, bring beer.

Second,

Quote
If events like those described here are at all regular,


In my experience they are rare. Most of the time, a simple "Protest" on the water takes care of it. Protest! You tacked to close and I had to head up to avoid you, you owe a circle, for example takes care of it. I've been to the protest room once or twice, I only remember once vividly. (The protest room: the outside bar instead of the inside bar, The process as I know it: Commodore picks three senior sailors to be Protest Committee, announces protest hearing to take place if no physical damage was done, each side states their case, nothing written down that I know of, Protest Committee asked questions to clarify situation, they get answers, and rules that are applicable are discussed openly.) Everyone learns from protesting, and being protested. If you are afraid of learning or making mistakes, you need to look inside and at the community that you sail with.

I have never been to another club where the environment is as open to making mistakes and getting help like this one. The rules are complicated and hard to learn. Each protest hearing helps everyone learn. Perhaps this is the tipping point of why WRCRA continues to grow cat sailors, instead of just steal them from other classes. And, I believe in stealing sailors from other classes.

One less T20 sailor and one more N20 sailor for example . . . <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> Hmmm . . . where are those local F16 and F18 sailors?


Chris Allen
Nacra 20 Gertie
www.wrcra.org
Re: Single handed boats get that way. [Re: Stuart_Douglas] #97617
01/30/07 10:32 AM
01/30/07 10:32 AM
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 182
Appleton, WI
blockp Offline
member
blockp  Offline
member
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 182
Appleton, WI
Quote

Competitiveness is great, but tossing your moral compass overboard simply to finish higher completely devalues any result you achieve.

This whole discussion makes me wonder whether my wife and I will ever end up doing any racing at all. If events like those described here are at all regular, I suspect we'll opt for just romping around on our own and not worrying about it.

I can't speak to the sportsmanship in racing as I'm not involved with racing (too many irons in the fire to dedicate a specific night to sailing). From lurking and reading, I've gathered that it seems a lot like sportsmanship in golf. Mostly handled on the honor system, but if you make a big enough stink about something, you can get other people to back your argument to force the perp to score correctly.

Playing golf, I am a single digit handicapper and love the game. I have no problem with people who don't score correctly(accidentally or intentionally), but I do get irritated when I play with people that obviously don't score correctly/cheat and at the end of the round they're telling everyone what a great round they shot and about the birdie on #12 (which they happened to hit a mulligan or foot wedge). Does it detract from the game? No. I don't play for the bragging rights about my round, I play because I love blasting a drive down the middle of the fairway, sticking the pin with my 8 iron, or chipping in from the fringe. I like just being out on the course.

I suspect the same is true for _most_ of the people out there racing. They're not worried about winning the t-shirt at the end of the day, they just love being on the course, pulling on the sheets, feeling their boat accelerate past the boat next to them.

Don't let a few poor sportsman keep you from doing something you love. If you like the competition, then ignore the cheaters... jump in and go for it.

Last edited by blockp; 01/30/07 10:40 AM.
Re: Single handed boats get that way. [Re: blockp] #97618
01/30/07 10:46 AM
01/30/07 10:46 AM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,246
Orlando, FL
tback Offline
veteran
tback  Offline
veteran
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,246
Orlando, FL
Quote


Don't let a few poor sportsman keep you from doing something you love. If you like the competition, then ignore the cheaters... jump in and go for it.


And ... over time ... the cheaters will be well known amongst your Fleet. So people will discount them when they say they did this or that.

Stuart, if you are at all competitive ... you'll want to race! After all the beer tastes alot better when you share stories with others!

And remember what Robi says:

"There are those that will and those that have".


USA 777
Re: Single handed boats get that way. [Re: jpayers] #97619
01/30/07 11:06 AM
01/30/07 11:06 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 146
Crofton, MD
Todd Berget Offline
member
Todd Berget  Offline
member
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 146
Crofton, MD
Quote
By the way I have a pretty big rant!!
Who came up with the B.S. idea that you could sail an entire race like you didn't foul anybody then do a 360 or 720 before you finish. The rules state a penalty turn must be done as soon possible without disturbing others. I hate it when there is a protest at the first mark involving a pack of 10 boats, the boat that fouled does a penalty turn at the end of the race and only losses one place instead of lossing 10 places. Who started this nonsense I blame America's Cup Racing.

Anybody else know who started it?


J.P.Ayers
Isotope 186


The delayed penalties clause is in the special provisions section for match racing (Rule C8 or C9 replaces rule 44 of the regular racing rules). Rule 44 simply states that a boat taking a penalty must sail clear of other boats and perform it's circles as soon as reasonably possible.

I think this came about in match racing to try to keep the race alive. Without this rule in match racing, if you foul someone and are behind, the race is essentially decided. Makes for more exciting racing.


Todd Nacra 20 www.wrcra.org
Let me clarify. [Re: Mark Schneider] #97620
01/30/07 06:15 PM
01/30/07 06:15 PM
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 47
J
jpayers Offline
newbie
jpayers  Offline
newbie
J
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 47
Hold on.Let me clarify.

Bob, was railing against single handed skippers that think they can cheat over and over again and think that there sailing buddies don't notice. I have no qualms with A-catters nor did I mention them in my rant.

Stuart, one skipper doesn't ruin the fleet it is very rare to find a skipper that deliberately cheats, Single handed racing for me is the only way to go. It is a passion of mine that I can safely say I will do for the rest of my life. Sailing is fun racing is fun but with a little more intensity "if you want". Don't let my rant keep you from doing something wonderful in your life.

Thanks everyone for responding to my question. Now I blame the match racing circuits.

J.P.
Isotope 186

Re: Single handed boats get that way. [Re: Stuart_Douglas] #97621
01/31/07 12:24 PM
01/31/07 12:24 PM
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 440
Graham, NC
WindyHillF20 Offline
addict
WindyHillF20  Offline
addict
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 440
Graham, NC
Stuart,
My experience in racing has been poor. As a rookie my 18 was t-boned and destroyed. I seriously considered never racing again. Changed my mind, entered several races and had fun. Then got into another issue, was discouraged again. I find that the majority of sailors at regattas are great people and fun to be around. There are always a few exceptions. Racing is very fun, you learn alot, and if you can turn off the competitive side its more fun. I plan to race again this year with my wife. We will not try to get on the line for starts, back down whether we have rights or not, and just have fun. I'm not willing to sacrifice the experience of racing over a few instances. I feel I did the right thing both times, don't know that the other skippers can make that same statement without fear of lightning. Go to races, stay back out of the way and learn. My 2 cents.

Re: Single handed boats get that way. [Re: WindyHillF20] #97622
01/31/07 12:36 PM
01/31/07 12:36 PM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
Mary Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mary  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
Windyhillf20,
Sounds like a good plan. I am just curious, though -- when you had those earlier problems, were you racing in a one-design fleet or racing on Portsmouth? Usually a one-design fleet is organized and it is easier to get problems within the class or the fleet addressed and resolved.

Re: Single handed boats get that way. [Re: Mary] #97623
01/31/07 01:21 PM
01/31/07 01:21 PM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,114
BANNED
MauganN20 Offline
Carpal Tunnel
MauganN20  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,114
BANNED
Quote
We will not try to get on the line for starts, back down whether we have rights or not, and just have fun.


Man, don't try to back down if you're on starboard!

You might cause some confusion/collisions.

Re: Single handed boats get that way. [Re: WindyHillF20] #97624
01/31/07 03:50 PM
01/31/07 03:50 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 5,582
“an island in the Pacific....
hobie1616 Offline
Carpal Tunnel
hobie1616  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 5,582
“an island in the Pacific....
Quote
Stuart,
My experience in racing has been poor.

Back when I was racing in Hobie Division 3, there were two 18 skippers that were always guaranteed to protest either each other or any other boat that got in their way. They were the exception and became an ongoing joke for the rest of us.

Sail a clean race and you won't have to worry about protests.


US Sail Level 2 Instructor
US Sail Level 3 Coach
Re: Single handed boats get that way. [Re: MauganN20] #97625
01/31/07 04:08 PM
01/31/07 04:08 PM
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 440
Graham, NC
WindyHillF20 Offline
addict
WindyHillF20  Offline
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Posts: 440
Graham, NC
Dude, the last time I suffered damage I was on starboard and didn't back down. Couldn't get any committee to hear me and the skipper of the port boat I hit didn't retire from the race, didn't do penalty turns, nothing. He is an experienced skipper that choose to start on port, fouled the 18 in front of me ( that didn't protest ), and I had no where to go. He even had the nerve to say he thought my 18 mag was a 16 and "I knew I'd be gone before you got here". I hailed him, my crew hailed him, and those on the committee boat must have had their heads up their butts to see nothing at the start line. He refused to give me his insurance info and the race promoters did nothing to help either. Cost me personally to repair my boat.

Re: Single handed boats get that way. [Re: Mary] #97626
01/31/07 04:12 PM
01/31/07 04:12 PM
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 440
Graham, NC
WindyHillF20 Offline
addict
WindyHillF20  Offline
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Posts: 440
Graham, NC
Mary,
Was racing one design but on course with other boats at the same time. I was hit by a boat I wasn't competing with. I was on port and he hit my port hull. I never saw him coming and as he never hailed, felt the impact before I knew what was happening.

Re: Single handed boats get that way. [Re: jpayers] #97627
01/31/07 04:14 PM
01/31/07 04:14 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe


Quote

By the way I have a pretty big rant!!
Who came up with the B.S. idea that you could sail an entire race like you didn't foul anybody then do a 360 or 720 before you finish. The rules state a penalty turn must be done as soon possible without disturbing others. I hate it when there is a protest at the first mark involving a pack of 10 boats, the boat that fouled does a penalty turn at the end of the race and only losses one place instead of lossing 10 places. Who started this nonsense I blame America's Cup Racing.

Anybody else know who started it?



Actually ISAF racing rules committee started this by making the following mistake.

In the rule where you touch a mark on the course it says you must do a penalty promptly without hindering anybody else.

In the rule where you foil another competitor it only says that you have to do a penalty turn.

By explicetly writing "prompty" (or something to that extend) in one rule but NOT using it in the other rule it gives good ground on which to claim that you can do your penalty turn whenever you want as long as you didn't foul on a mark.

Somebody who was making the racing rules simply forgot to include an important aspect in one of the rules and this is the result.

But it is that way and any good racer can and should make use of that in my opinion. Because if you don't then you only limit yourselfs as some other crew will. Then it is better to all (as in more fair) if we all do it at a time of our chosing.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Single handed boats get that way. [Re: Acat230] #97628
01/31/07 04:23 PM
01/31/07 04:23 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Quote

The better the fleet, the less possibility for protests as the sailors are more knowledgeable and experienced and just avoid situations that could lead to a rules infraction.



That is true to a point. When you are racing in a really competitive fleet like at worlds etc then playing the rules becomes part of the game just as it is with any top sport.

There will always be crews who will be looking to drive you into a pinch at that level when just their plain speed is not enough. Team Booth is an example for this tactic. And honestly, while I deeply respect a more chevalrous approach to sailing, I also think that at the real top level this is inevitable. By limiting yourself to not playing this game you disadvantage yourself. That is why real top sport is not a nice occupation for alot of times.

But then again we are talking about the real top level events here.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Single handed boats get that way. [Re: MauganN20] #97629
01/31/07 04:29 PM
01/31/07 04:29 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe

That is actually a very good point. If you have rights then claim them. That will make it far easier for the other crew to dip below you or whatever. Also when you show "weakness" in claiming your rights then you'll find that some crews are willing to draw you into a "who blinks first contest" and that can quickly lead to troubles.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
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