Brain Overload! Help!

There are too many choices out there!! I have recently decided to get back into sailing and racing after a long absence. Previous experience was phrf monohull keel boats but would like something more exciting such as mutihull racing. I need advice as to what cats I should consider as I want plenty of racing opportunities. Also, I prefer singlehanded sailing, am in shape and weigh about 220 lbs.
I guess I am thinking Hobie 16s because the one design class is strong but how about Nacra and Prindles? What's all this Formula stuff? How does Open racing work? Handicaps? I am lost. Please help. Thanks in advance.

Racing singlehanded on the boats you mentioned is out.

Prepare to be barraged!

I sail a Blade: http://www.formula16.org/

Pete, thanks for the warning. I looked up the link for F16 you posted. Are there more F16s in US than reflected on web site or does it mean you would race mainly open class? Thanks.

Yes, but not many. It is a small but growing class. This is not an easy boat to master. IMO, you should only buy one if you are looking for a challenge! Otherwise, a Hobie Getaway is a good choice.

I'll try and find the Frapper link. It has a map of F16 locations. In the mean time, give th F16 forum a look. It's here on Catsailor. Just go to the main index.

Hey Pete, thanks again. Yeah I think it was the Frappr I looked at. In southeast it looked like a couple in Atlanta and 6 or seven in Florida.

Bill,

If you want to race singlehanded often then your only options are pretty much A-cat, F16, Hobie 17, hobie 14 and nacra 17.

Other boats like the FX-one are too rare the achieve fleet racing and will therefor always put you in the open class fleet.

It also is strongly dependent on where your sail. Each type is strong in anoher part of the USA.

If you want PLENTY of racing opportunities that are also enjoyable then you should really look at a modern singlehander. H14 and H17 are not able to keep up with modern mixed racing fleets. The others will be derigged and at the bar drinking beer when you cross the finish line. Only the A-cat, F16's and Nacra 17's are capable to stay with the mixed fleets in the way of performance. All these are pretty much formula based. Nacra 17 only in name but none of these designs will remain exactly the same over any long period of time. That is what formula means.

Formula denotes a make-up of class rules that don't intend to make all boats identical but only to make all possible designs equal in performance. So in a formula fleet you can encounter different boats made by different builders that are all the same in overall performance. They still race first-in-wins. Formula classes are totally replacing the old one-design classes of the past. The biggest fleets with the best sailors are currently all formula fleets. This does include the olympic Tornado class as well.

I hope this clearifies things for now.

Wouter

Yeah Pete, F16 looks like a hell of a machine. Maybe I should think more about using a crew!

This feb 2006 there will be about 50 F16's in the USA. Most of them in the south-east of the USA. Internationally we are passed 150.

The class was invented 5 years ago, so indeed the F16's are a small but growing class. In the south-east of the US the F16 boats make class regulary at events. This fleet is actually quite active considering its current small size.

About halve the racing is open class, but that isn't any different with respect to any other make of singlehander. Probably the A-cat class makes class most often over the whole USA but even they often race open class. There is simply not a singlehanded class anymore that makes class often and everywhere. The catamaran scene is changing.

Wouter

Wouter,

Thanks man. That was really what I was looking for. Just to make sure, you are saying that F16 or Nacra17 would compete in the same fleets under a formula rule? Or would the Nacra 17 be put with Hobie 17s. How about crew weight/number regulations? Even though it might not be prudent,competitive or logisically possible to race a f16 singlehanded would it be allowed? Thanks.

F16's are raced both singlehandedly and doublehandedly. Nearly always an F16 fleet is a mix of both. The class was developped to do both with about the same performance.

Tikipete is a singlehanded F16 sailor.

I mostly raced the F16 doublehanded in the past, but I do sail it often singlehanded. Over the last year I race it singlehandedly increasingly more.

Wouter

Bill,



Not really. Think of formula racing as the way nascar or F1 automobiel racing is set up. All boats must satisfy the limits set in the class rule set otherwise they can't race in the class. But the rule set does still allow significant freedom in how a F16 design is made or fitted out. Currently the nacra 17 does not satisfy all the F16 class rules.

But it must be said that the nacra 17 is pretty close in performance to the F16's so it could directly race F16's on that aspect alone. But officially it can't. Most F16 sailors will welcome nacra 17 sailors however. The more souls the more fun. Obvious expection will be of course any nationals or similar events of equal importance.




In the US it all comes down to who makes class and who doesn't. Were I sail we don't do seperate classes very often and all classes start and finish together. In the US, class is however important. In my experience the nacra 17 doesn't make class at events outside of the great lakes region. Hobie 17 however is more spread out and does make class at events in more spacially seperated locations. F16's make class often in south-eastern USA, in other area's of the US the F16's are still building up minimum class size in order to make class. But that is progressing quite satisfactory. California is probably the next area to see F16's make class more often. There is talk of a F16 fleet forming in southern USA. Forida sees F16 make class often.




There are none. Only regulation is that you need to have a righting setup that allows you to right the boat unaided. At 220lbs you don't need anything other then a righting line. I'm 185 lbs and can right my F16 singlehanded with a righting line in all conditions.





Sailing a F16 singlehanded is actually encouraged in the class. In the past too many sailors thought of the F16 as mostly a doublehanded boat. It will actually do both equally well. The basic F16 design was designed to be safely sailed singlehandedly as well as doublehandedly, so there should not be any reason not to do so.

Being only 107 kg (236 lbs) fully rigged and ready to sail makes it is even logistically easy to singlehanded transport the F16.


But Bill, it is wise to first decide on what you really want. It is easy to spend alot of money on these modern boats relative to just buying a second hand H17 for example. I think the pleasure in sailing these modern boats is well worth the money, despite the fact that I'm not a particular well-off in the bucks department. But this is something each sailor must decide for himself.

It may well be wise to start cheap, give sailing a good try and only when you lust for more after a while by a modern rocket

I hope this helps,

Wouter

Wouter,

Thank you greatly for the time you have taken to help with my questions. You have just answered my next question on money/F16vs.H17. I looked around a little just now. Not too many F16s on the used market and I am not gonna buy new so the H17 might be the ticket since I have seen several for sale. What can you tell me about the H17? Thanks.

F16 is the solution <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Hey Scoob,

You have a F16 for sale perhaps?

Scoob, Never mind I just relized you are in UK. Thanks.

Bill,

Wouter will have nothing good to say about the Hobie 17 - so I will. They aren't the fastest boat around the cans - especially downwind, where they are horribly underpowered. Upwind in 15+ kts, though, they are a hoot! The wings give you the extra leverage to hold the boat down and power past almost everything. I've beaten A-cats and I-20's to the weather mark (that's about as long as it lasts, though).

There is a fairly active H-17 group in your area. However, you are a bit large for the H-17. Optimum racing crew weight is 160 - 180 lbs.

The H-16 is another active class in your area, but again, you're a bit large unless you have a 65 - 80 lb crew (Optimum racing crew weight is 285 - 300 lbs).

The H-14 is sparsely raced and you are way too heavy. Optimum for that boat is about 150 - 160 lbs.

The only singlehanders that would fit your weight is an A-cat or an F-16. Both are going to be expensive and more fragile than the Hobies.

If you can get past the single handing thing, a good alternative for your weight would be a Hobie 20. It's a very active class in that part of the country, used boats are realtively inexpensive, and it would be a good introduction to high-performance catamarans without the complications of the F-18's spinnaker. Once you get the hang of the 20, you can move on to an F-18, which is also fairly active in that part of the country.

Resources:
Hobie Class Association of North America
Hobie Community Forums
Hobie Class Assn. HOTLINE magazine

Rick's Taipan 4.9 is in the classifieds.

MBounds, thanks for the helpful reply. Would I be able to right a H20 solo?

What is the difference between the Blade and the Taipan?

The hull shapes are different, of course.

Also, I believe the original Taipan 4.9 is about 5 inches narrower than the Blade. But that would not be a problem with your weight. And you probably will be sailing in light air most of the time anyway in your area. So a slightly narrower boat might be more fun -- able to fly a hull in less wind. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Google "Taipan 4.9 catamaran" to find more information about the boat from various sources, including an owner who has an interesting web site about his boat that he named "Taipanic."

No, I've just bought one <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Thanks, Mary, for the input. I hope to campaign the boat on East Coast and FL if that would make any difference in selection?

That's out of my realm. If you are going to be sailing your boat off beaches and out through surf, I don't know how the F-16's handle that. Maybe others have had experience.

Bill, give me a call or shoot me an email...
ddbrown (at) ncsu (dot) edu

There is an active Hobie 20 fleet in our area? Wow, I can count on 1 hand how many I've raced against this past year...

(919)-302-0880

Hi Bill,

Give me a shout at tbshannon[at]charter.net. I've been talking to some others from Chattanooga about the F16. Sent you a PM, as well. Might be a good time to arrange a trip to Birmingham for a sail.

Joanna - time to get LO down here, too.

Uh, no - not without shroud extenders, a righting pole, or a water bag. I've only righted a 20 once - and we had maybe 370 lbs on the boat.



I was thinking further west - Little Rock, Memphis, Tulsa, Dallas - but it's a lot further from Chattanooga than I thought.

Trey's going to try to sell you on an I-20 - which is probably a good call, given your location. (But you won't be able to right that one solo, either.)

I actually would push for a hobie 16 solo, and just take the portsmouth hit. So what if you're sailing in open class?

Is it just my imagination or is Nacra a dirty word in here? Just wondering. Anyway, I cannot tell you guys how much I appreciate your help here. I think the H16 might be what I should start with. The price sure is better. However, I am thinking about hitting the tradewinds regatta just to look around and ask questions.

Nacra is far from a dirty word. They make great boats, there just aren't as many of them out there as the Hobie 16's, 18's, etc. I have owned and raced several Nacras. For an entry-level race boat from Nacra, I'd get a Nacra 5.2, or maybe a 5.5 depending on budget. The 5.5 is going to be much more expensive, and more fragile than the 5.2, or a Hobie 16 for that matter...

Go here: http://www.1design.net./ and ask about "Frankenboat" <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Pete, I would but I am scared.

Be afraid! Be very afraid! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Yeah, stay away from the Frankenboat...I'm sorry to admit that I started that whole mess! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

I lived in Chattanooga for quite a while and know a sailor or two up your way (also - my parents still live in Ooltewah so I am in town from time to time). I now live in Greenville, SC but we still share much of the same sailing ground. This area is in a bit of a transitional stage for single handed boats. The Hobie 17 was very strong until the last three years. Before, we would typically see at least 5 Hobie 17s at most regattas, now we are seeing one or two occasionally. One talented Hobie 17 sailor (Ooolie) lives in Chattanooga but he is sailing the one last Hobie 20 in the area now (he sails it double handed but they are light and have difficulty righting the boat).

We haven't seen but a couple F16s show up at our local regattas in the South East (not including Florida) but I wouldn't discourage you away from the boat because you are interested in both single handing and sailing two-up. There are always two or more Hobie 16s - usually more like four to seven - that attend our local regattas though. Does anyone know if the H16 class rules allow single handing?

I would look forward to meeting you at Tradewinds - we'll be there and be looking for you!

Bill,

The first thing you should do before looking for a boat is check out your regional sailing association.

For you this would be
http://www.emsa-sailing.org/index.htm

Take a look at the regatta results for the past year or two. This will tell you three things. How many people go racing. What boats they race, and What they consider a class and how do they start the classes and run the races.

For some organizations... three boats equals a class... So, If you were going to a Hobie regatta then this is your race. This might be OK.. (but only if the three sailors are closely matched in skill and experience). Otherwise... If you are starting out... you will be stunned at how far back of the other two you could be. The fun factor is severely challenged. If at the next regatta, you are the only racer... you win! but the fun factor is zero.

Other organizations, run all boats in one combined start and run everyone in an open class and collect your elapsed time plus your boats handicap is then used to sort out 1 through N .. They also score out the one design (or formula classes). So... if you are the only H17 for instance, you will still be racing the Hobie 16's and 18's and and the Nacras in open class. A big advantage is that while you might own a fast boat... in reality, on the race course, you will be hard pressed to keep up with a slower boat with an experiecned sailor. So, your race will be trying to keep up with or stay ahead of the slower boats until you gain enough experience and skill to start challenging the boats in your class and then the overall fleet of sailors.

Another factor to consider, If the majority of the racers in the events you would go to are racing spin boats... Its not going to be a lot of fun racing a slow non spin boat against them (even if you sail it extremely well and win!!!).

Lots of people are looking for crew... you might want to get wired into the fleet and start crewing on several boats for a season. Now you have just invested in your personal gear and you will experience first hand, the racing, the classes and members... When you start your own program... you will really be well up the learning curve.

If you don't want to race, then you should be looking for the boat in the best condition, that suits your price, weight and desire to single hand. This will buy you the most amount of fun on the water with the least amount of headaches. If racing is in the cards down the road... great! Start out crewing... By the end of this game, You will have a lot more skill... know what you want and can handle and probably have a crystal clear idea of the racing fleet that suits you in your region.

Bottom line, Racing is more of a social contract then you might recognize at the begining. See what your options are and then fit the boat choice into that framework. Back in the day... it was simple... ID the fleet in your area... buy one of those and go racing! Now, its a bit like reading tea leaves as to which classes are growing, holding or dying in your area AND do the organizations recognize the changes and make accomodations to match the ever changing cat racing scene.

Have fun.
Mark (CRAC and A class) The region to your north!
Check out the one design page for the Florida racing schedule to EMSA's south.

Finally, be really cautious about the term FRAGILE...
All of the newer high tech boats are not fragile on the water and will take more abuse then your body could on the water.

None of the high tech boats will take ANY abuse on the beach... So, If you want a boat that could sit in the surf line and thrash around a bit, or survive getting blown over on the beach ... you want an old school design. For these owners... your high tech boat is fragile cause it won't do this and survive very long.

Now, the high tech boat owners, don't use the term fragile... they use the term PIG, to refer to those boats that weigh a ton but will take the beating on the beach. Obviously, nothing is really learned or communicated by the use of either term.

So, To each his own... just make sure you understand where everyone is coming from when they rep their personal favorite class.

Hey Jake, I guess no matter which set up I go with one of the things I look forward to is traveling to some regattas and meeting you folks . Thanks.

I don't know, the F16 is just a FAD.


Before I get blasted, just kidding of course.

Seriously, can't go wrong with Hobie 16 as entry level cat. They're everywhere and easy to sail.

I think the F16 might be a little too much for you right now. They are very weight sensitive and have a spinnaker, as you know. If you are getting into it and singlehand a boat with a spinnaker as tippy as the F16 is, you might have problems. Also, since you weigh 220, you'd have to find a very light crew if doublehanding. Don't get me wrong, the Blade and Taipan are awesome boats!, but I think you should sail something a little less sensitive to start out, and maybe move into the F16 or F18 later. Don't take on too much and be turned off because you're sidways a lot.

Nacras rock! Don't let anybody tell you different.

I'd say Hobie 16 or Nacra 5.5 are probably your best options. Hobie 17s are cool with the racks and everything, but if you wanna sail with an extra person they get really low in the water and slow. Sorry if I'm forgetting something. Good luck! I live on the east coast, so I'm sure I'll cu around.

Hey there from Chattanooga!! Nice to know some one else is in the area. My slipper has a H17 and a H20 for sale right now. (see classifieds) Yes, we are too light to right the H20--265lbs together, and can be a handful for a light weight team, but it is a fun boat esp w/ the spin flying. Honestly we are looking at the F16 because we can right it and would not have to carry extra weight. Also my skipper can sail it single-handed when I can't crew. Also the advantage of owning one boat. The draw back is that there are very few used on out there. So depending new/used and money factor that may make a difference for you. Good luck and drop and line if you want to talk multihulls with a local. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Tom-wish we could of come this wkend- beautiful weather but no wind <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Plus family was in-we'll get down......

Hi Joanna,

Yeah I noticed immediately your area codes in the classifieds. Lets stay in touch. Tshan has some interesting thoughts. I guess I need to start bumming some rides on catamarans to narrow it down. Thanks for the input.

Bill:

I am at your weight and some of the guys in may area are close. Attached photo of Drew Riddle, he KICKS butt in Open and class racing here in Div. 6. I have had my Hobie 17 for 6 years and love it. It is a HOOT in 15 and up. I have also added a few things that make it fun.

http://www.thebeachcats.com/modules.php?...=view_album.php

Doug and Ashleigh Snell

The Hobie class states a maximum of 50 lbs. may be carried to make minimum crew weight and minimum crew weight for the H16 is 285 lbs. In other words, a quantity for the minimum crew is not specified, in fact, the rules state if with two crew persons more than 50 lbs. need to be added an additional crew shall be carried (i.e. one adult and TWO ten year olds). Side note; Tony Probst (CA) raced single-handed in the H20 Nat'ls (and scored a bullet).

All that said, why not take the under weight portsmouth hit and race singlehanded in the open class. For that matter why not on a Hobie 18? I've always felt more comfortable singlehanding the 18 over the 16 (and I weigh 160).

Bill, If you wan't to start out cheaply with a H16 or TheMightyHobie18, check in with the pulse of the closest Hobie Fleets. They very well may know of the used Hobies for sale.
TENNESSEE
134 Gerry Wilder Memphis 901-755-5464 15
249 Jon Sheridon Nashville 615-383-7266 15
GEORGIA
12 Tammy Duran Atlanta 770-531-0397 9
NORTH CAROLINA
92 Jeff Price Charlotte 704-892-1936 9
97 Sam Evans Raleigh 919-544-4521 9
100 Kyle Harrison New Bern 919-304-6167 9
170 Ron Walters Lake Waccamaw 910-642-0625 9
191 Tom Sutton Greensboro 336-282-3106 9
SOUTH CAROLINA
53 Steve Shapiro Charleston 843-795-3026 9
164 Dave Strickland Simpsonville 864-801-1625 9
174 Ted Watts Myrtle Beach 843-651-6931 9
520 Buzz Moore Hartsville 803-332-6103 9

Yeah...most of that Hobie class info is way way out of date...

There is a Taipan 4.9 (not quite F16, no spin) in the Knoxville, TN area. Perhaps he's ready to sell it. PM me if you're interested in contacting him.

Recommended min. is 285 lbs for the H16- This is logical as that's just about the min. weight needed to right one. Of course the H16 is not really considered a solo boat for that reason.

Realistically I’d guess the minimum righting weight for the F16 would be somewhere around 190 lbs (87kg.) the Taipan would require slightly less and the Nacra 17 would require more (weight). <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

No, The F16 does not require anywhere near that much.

I am about 80kg and I've been told I'll have no problems with mine, and I believe there are even lighter sailors out there who do not have a problem righting their boats.

Yes, under the right conditions… <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

preferably sunny....

One of the class rules for the F16 is that you must be able to right the boat unaided (single or 2 handed).

Sorry, but have you tried to right an F16 ? The fact the boat CAN be righted easily, is one of the strong points. I bet the F16 is easier to right than most boats because of the light all up weight.

I'm now 70Kgs and I can right my Stealth solo in ALL conditions (in the really light stuff I have to go right to the tip of the c/board).

Yes, I HAVE pulled the boat back up in a total flat calm - we were out just having a bit of fun and capsized the boat (with a support boat nearby) to see if it would come back up.

Do they bend much? Not sure I'd want to wander to the end of mine !

No, under all conditions.

I'm 85 kg and have righted my F16 singlehandly in anything, including flat water and light winds; The conditions don't get more challenging then this. Arguably my weight is up there but then I never really felt that I was really using all of it.

Funny enough, most sailors, builders or classes don't quote righting weights for such conditions, they all assume the wind is there to help righting the boat. Therefor quoting significantly lower righting weights. As a result you will find that even boats like the H14 and H17 are a downright devil to right singlehandedly in flat water and light winds, if at all possible.

Relatively speaking, there are only one or two of boats more easily righted then a F16. A-cat is definately number 1 and the Swell Shadow is number 2. None of the Hobie's or Nacra's are more easily righted however, not even the H14.

One of the reasons for this is that (even) the F16 alu mast is 4 to 5 kg lighter then any mast used by Hobie and Nacra. The F16's with carbon masts are again a 3-4 kg lighter.

Wouter

Mary, this has long be proven to be a non-issue. We have been doing it for years now, without any significant mishap.

Of course as a sailor you must know how to traverse a big surf. No boat fancies its chances after being capsized in the surf with big breakers, not even a Hobie 16.

We really need to get over the myth that lightweight equals fragile, because it really isn't a 1+1 = 2 relationship. Not even on the beach.

I hate to say it but both my 105 kg F16 and a 150 kg Nacra 500 were blown over on the beach. The Nacra 500 snapped its mast, mine didn't. Now I guess the Nacra 500 was just unlucky, maybe his boat made some kind of freak turn that put more shock to its mast, I don't know. Point is that you just can't glance over the specs of a design and make any dependable guess about which is more fragile.

The only way to tell is to look at the way a boat is build and good the quality control was at the factory.

I dare say that the F16's have an excellent rep. sheet there. No F16 has ever been killed in the surf and not for lack of trying. See picture.

This is a Stealth F16 that ditched its crew in a big breaker and then proceeded to the next breaker and capsized. It then floated back to be picked up by the dazed crew.

Bill,




Not much really. The Taipan is actually the design the F16 class was largely modelled after.

The posts make good points. When you get back into sailing it is always a good idea to start cheap and sail for a while to see if the bug really gets you. If it does then that is the time to start looking for more modern sailing boats. Aferall there is always the chance that the bug doesn't get you and you get out of sailing again, preferably without losing too much money doing so.

F16's are good boats for people who has have done a bit of catamaran sailing already. They are afterall race boats. This doesn't mean that are particular difficult to sail but it does mean you have got to have your act together.

>>>What can you tell me about the H17?

Not too much really. I sailed the boat a few times, but that was after having sailed boats like the Hobie FX-one and Tiger, also after I sailed the Taipan. It would probably have been better if I had sailed the H17 before I sailed any of the others.

The H17 I sailed was relatively fast going upwind, I did win one little race with it. But I had no love for the fittings or the extremely low boom. I think it is a typical design of the 80's. A decent boat to be had for a modest to cheap second hand price.

I will end this post but echoing what others have been saying as well. There are more then enough skippers looking for crews. You could do alot worse then finding yourself a nice skipper with boat and sail with him for a year. Also, if you really want to own a boat yourself then test sail all the boats you can and then decide which to buy. Personal preference is indeed an important factor.

Wouter

I did not suggest the boats are too fragile. Just said I don't know much about sailing in surf.

However, I was thinking more in terms of hull design and bow shape, because from observation over the years it appears to me that some hull designs work better than others in surf.

Bill, You've gotten great advice, and if you make it to Tradewinds, you'll likely get to ride on some of those different boats. The best thing, is you'll get to meet some really great folks that will help you more than you can now imagine. Have a great time!

Bill, the last EMSA regatta was in Columbia South Carolina, The Outback Cup. We had 7 or 8 H16's, a open class of a SC 20, TheMightyHobie18, Mystere 20. an F18 class, that had 5 boats( more than half the fleet was at Tracie's wedding). I would say that typically in our sailing area we have an F18 fleet,7-10 boats(20+ at Spring Fever), a strong H16 fleet, 5 or more boats at every regatta, sometimes a TheMightyHobie18 fleet, but at least 3-4 boats typically, and an open fleet of miscellaneous Franken Boats(is that term copyrighted?)
whatever your choice, we will welcome in and find someone for you to race against.

Frankenboats versus a member of the Dead Boat Society

You probably mean the Dead Boat Society... ie those boats that once a pon atime were raced and now are by themselves

The frakenboats are those boats that have been highly customized.

Dave, you guys have already welcomed me more than all of you realize. I have never seen or received the amount of help and suggestions anywhere in my mono-hull endeavors and experiences. It seems I have been missing out on a lot of fun! Thank you everyone for the help. Looking forward to meeting you guys at the Tradewinds.