Boat bickering

Stewart Douglas asked which boat he should buy and all hell broke loose! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Many readers consider this devisive, I do not! There is little reason to own a sail boat unless you feel passionate about, so, I say brag about your boat! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

For me it's the Blade! I encourage everyone to rush right out and buy one!

Let the bickering continue!

If somebody would offer me a brand new F18 in a swap against my 3 year old Taipan F16 then I would not consider taking him up on that UNLESS I was able sell that F18 off tomorrow to buy back a new F16.

Wouter

Me too! The reasons are: the versatility of 1 or 2 up sailing and weight.

The low weight of the Blade, of all F16s,is understated. Specific advantages of low weight which are little appreciated by those of you who don't own F16s are: ease of loading, unloading from the trailer and moving the boat around the beach. All beaches have ruts, dips and gradients! Given equal balance on the dolly, it is much easier to move 240 lbs than it is to move 300-400 lbs.! And before anyone says 60 lbs is no big deal, let me reminder you that this group quibbles over mere ounces!

I love my Blade!! Midget boats rule!!

I'd DEFINATELY be on one if there were any used ones around that were a good price. Any guesses on how much they will be going for after the Alter Cup? Any of them already snatched up?

I seem to remember that there are three F16 on the second hand market right now. 1 Stealth F16 for a very attractive price think US7000, Ricks own Taipan is for sale and another Taipan too I believe.

Of course we has a big round of second hand F16's this last summer with several boats changing hands. That was the time to buy one.

Alter Cup boats ? I don't know, contact Matt McDonald at vectorworks marine for more info on these boats. His contact info (+ phone number) is on http://www.vectorworkssail.com/

Additionally Matt will probably sell of his own boat (demo) again in a halve year or so. So that is an option as well.

If you really want one then a secondhander can be found for you I think.

Wouter

I think Stewart hit the nail on the head. For their locale they decided on the F18. The forum pointed out more specifically a Tiger would be best.

What is being raced locally is the "best" boat choice. Outside of the H16, (a choice virtually anywhere) where we live it's the H20 (and 2-up the only one). It's not "my" choice of boat, too heavy at 420#'s. It's a compromise.

I feel the best boat is the biggest fleet, with the best sailors.

I envy those with a wide range of choice.

What I quite dont understand sometimes is why let the location dictate what kind of boat you purchase? There are zero F16s in my area, and there are zero F16 in anything closer than a couple of hundreds of miles from me. Yet I chose an F16 because it suits MY needs. Obviously the F16 does not suit the needs of the local clubs. I am always racing against I20s, Tornadoes and H20s. I am usually the smallest boat on the course as well. It really doesnt matter to me, what everone else sails. I dont mind racing in open class, because obviously I will try my hardest to sail the boat to the numbers.

So why let the area dictacte what you invest your money into?

Indeed Robi,

I owned the first purpose build F16 in world !

We are not followers, we created our own destiny where it didn't exist before.

A millions times more interesting then following the pack to where-ever it decides to go.


Wouter

The answer (here)? Only Hobie sanctioned regattas. There is a LOT of Hobie racing going on within 500 miles, even significantly more than most mono classes.

Maybe in the future there will be more open fleets at yacht clubs. We've raced a yacht club handicap event, but it seemed like a waste. No tactics, just go like hell. In that venue, there's no significant open class here, no F18's, Tornados, N20's, only Hobies (primarily 18's) and an occasional NACRA. In light of that, I suppose I have another "choice" of boats close to the TheMightyHobie18's number, because I thrive on the occasional duel.

So in my view, for me, the best boat is the biggest, most competitive, racing fleet.

bla bla bla
keep it simple. Big crew and faster growing compititions, F18, small crew or solo sometimes, F16
the rest is just bla bla bla.

Look what I found, another F16 love-fest!

Keep it in your pants boys! :P

LOL, you are just hating. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Obviously this thread is going to be very beneficial...
Only a tool could have started it.

What kind of tool? I'm thinking shovel?

If you can't play nicely children, you're toys will have to be taken away................

Sailing a different class to all those around you keeps your fragile ego pumped up, lots of wiggle room to make excuses as to why you didn't win eg unfair handicap, conditions didn't suit, etc

If you sail the same boats, class racing, when you get beat, it is simply because you were out sailed, no excuse.

If you want to race, join the fleet. If you want to make up the numbers going around the bouys, choose whatever.

Darryn
Mosquito
1704

I'll take one of those "Fad" boats if you find it neccessary to take them away from the children, I'll promise to play nicely with all the other children if you give me one, for Christmas would be nice! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I'm glad you enjoy being the trial blazer and hope you continue to be very happy with your boat.

To answer your question, many (me included) have absolutely no interest in any form of handicap or yardstick racing. My interest in racing is very simple - first across the line wins. I have no interest in beating whatever boat by whatever time because in it's very nature, no handicapping system is perfect and will favor one boat (be it mine or the other class) over another.

I like the formula concept (be it 18/16/whatever) and also OD racing although single manufacturer classes do have both positives and some serious negatives.

Call it following the pack if you like, but beating the other guy who is on as close to the same equipment as practicable is most definately the attraction for many.

Tiger Mike

I just sail to see who I can beat to the line and that includes F18's, F20's, A's. Doing that on a 16 foot platform is alot of fun as the other side has trouble finding excusses for their loss.

Wouter

My F16 is for sale -- but only if you'll be racing...what would you consider a "good price"?

I'll take the proceeds and purchase a new Blade so as to grow the F16 fleet in FL.

There is alot to be said about Class racing as long as the numbers are large enough that there is a good mix of ability and crew wieghts, otherwise you'll just find a pecking order occurs in every race. That is good for the people who aren't winning as they'll have a target to work towards. However, in mixed Class racing the competitors should be sailing Cats which are best suited to their size/wieght ,ability and budget. At the Club where I sail we have Cats ranging across the whole spectrum from Dart 18's to Tornado's. I have fortunately had the chance to race most of them. I'm not the tallest or heaviest of people so I have found the Cats I get the most enjoyment out of are either the F16 or 'A' Class. IMO these two Cats are the dogs bits and if it wasn't for the fact that sailors at our Club weren't prepared to go down the one Class route I would probably have never expierenced the buzz of sailing these types of Cats. So I think there is a place for handicap racing at Club level where you can experiment and train and then take these skills to your own Open events where you sail with your fleet. In summary if we had been like sheep and all bought F18's the racing would have poorer for the majority for the benefit of the minority. Not forgetting that variety is the spice of life (in certain circumstances and your wife doesn't find out)

tikipete...you're a trouble-maker!

...so I'd buy you a beer anytime. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

To clarify, I've asked a few things here, but in short, I've asked for "first cat" recommendations, about tilt trailers, and finally about the integrity of used F18's. All hell breaking loose in such online discussions is perfectly normal, although it can mitigate the overall usefulness of a thread with all the subplots that tend to develop. If forum software could ever come up with a good automated indexing system, that would return a lot of value from these fragmented discussions.

Regarding the F18...our thinking is along these lines: we'll want something high-performance ultimately so why not start out with that sort of boat and the F18 fits that, it's becoming more popular by the day, good level of equivalent performance across the various makes, growing availability of good used boats, good resale potential, no need for tilt trailer. Although racing isn't a primary driver for us, Tiger seems to be a logical choice given it's class and one-deisgn race potential; however, they seem to be a bit more expensive on the used market, and whether or not this is a fair perception could be debated, but when talking new, the Capricorn and latest Nacra might be a hair quicker. For my wife and I, it would not matter for quite some time, if ever, as our technique would long remain the speed-limiting factor. Fact is, if it was fast and fun, we'd sail on a couple of old bathtubs strapped together on broom handles and powered by a comforter.

Until now, I'd hardly heard of the F16 let alone considered one, but since some good points have been made about this being a viable alternative to the F18, we'll definitely give this class a look. One obvious concern would be in racing, should we want to get actively involved would we be limited to open class events, or are there enough F16s in the US on a regional level to have class regattas? What about sea-worthiness in bigger water vs. an F18?

<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

First, let me apologize for misspelling your name. By the time I noticed, it was too late to edit the error. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

As regards distance racing, I think most everyone will agree I-20 is the first and best choice. F18s have fuller bows and generally will handle bigger waves more easily than the F16s, or so I'm told. As an unapologetic fair weather sailor, I generally avoid high wind and big waves! I use plenty of adrenaline at work. My goal on the water is to destress. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

IMO, the strengths of the F16 are it's light weight, versatility for 1 or 2 up sailing and the performance of a stock spinnaker.

In the end though, I think it just comes down to personal taste. Some people like chocolate, others like vanilla.

Happy Holidays!

Let me apologize as well for continuing the spelling error.

I recall you two weigh 320 total? Not too heavy for a F16. Hear the Blade feels like an 18 or 20 ft'r upwind.

Pete, Good point about the distance racing. Lake Erie would be a blast!!!

In terms of numbers of boats and fleets.. I don't think that there is an f16 fleet anywhere in NA..How many f16s are there in NA? Anyone know? I heard numbers of 3-4 dozen..
Anyone know the f18 numbers? It must be several hundred if not over 1000 in NA, with fleets all over the place, and growing quickly. I think that is the achilles heal of f16...not enough boats out there.

Dunno! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> There is a fleet in Florida and I'm confident it will grow but the numbers are comparatively small.

What happened to the U.S. Formula 16 Class Association that was being formed? Shouldn't the Class Assn. have a list of all the known F16 owners in the U.S. and where they are?

The class has formed; has a constitution, officers and twenty or so paid up members.
http://www.f16.beasts.org/

Frapper(?) has a map of the U.S. boats. Seem to have misplaced the link.

Is that 20 paid members globally or just North America?

Hey now! They have a website

formula16classgroup

Round and round in circles we go.

Yes, F16s are not in the same league as F18 or A in terms of fleet size. For some people that is a critical factor. For others it is not.

For me, there's a whole bunch of more important factors that mean F18 or A is not an option for me at the moment (I used to sail F18, and enjoyed the quality and quantity of the racing). I hope that F16 fleets will grow, but even if they don't, I still won't go out and buy an A or F18, because they don't meet my needs in other respects.

So, lack of other boats may be a critical factor for you, but it's certainly not the "Achilles heel" of the class.

Paul

That should be http://www.formula16.org - the beasts.org address was a temporary address for when we were building the site although it does still work.

Paul

Good morning Ding! You're in your usual wry form.
http://www.frappr.com/formula16classgroup/map

I think the US association is the first to even have paying F16 members at all. For the last 5 years we'd run the F16 class as a free membership class with volunteers doing all the work. I'm still not paying any membership fees, although I do pay for the www.formula16.org and www.formula16.com URL's. Paul is supplying us with the best hosting site of any catamaran class (unlimited bandwidth and space). Robi provides free grafics support, Phill is our free-of-charge technical support desk. Seth Stern is our main (for the love of it) F16 event organisor in USA and I can continue with a score of other people ....

This is not a pay-to-play class, but truly an owners driven association of volunteers. Great fun. We even have a team of volunteers working on new developments. Some of us are working on sailand rig development, others on hull developments and yet others again on production improvements. All pretty much for the love of it and the kick of experiencing succes. We are not much a run of mill class, we are different in many aspects.

But to answer your question. There can only be paying members in the USA at this time as the rest of the F16 sailors in the worlds are still operating under the free-of-charge memberships. I don't whether there are 20 or not. I do know that significantly more F16's are being sailed in the USA then 20 so ...

Wouter

I'm sorry, was that out of line? Not sure where that number is coming from and I'm wondering if it should be in the same category as the factoid "An F16 goes upwind like an N20" and an "F16 is weight insensitive, with the right mast and cut of sails" .

It's one thing to be enthusiastic about your boat, but the story telling is getting out of hand.

US Sailors:
This sounds just like the F18HT marketing plan, First flood the internet forums. Then tell everyone about all the sailors that have or planning to purchase & the webpage.
How many years have we been listening to this?

Can anyone point out a regatta in North America, that five F16 sloops attended a regatta or F16s sailed as a uni?

Formula 18 Class is now the most active catamaran class in the World. Formula 18 North America F18s http://www.naf18.com/ I heard the membership was over 60, but that was a year or so ago.

Ted

He is isn't he ? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Our promotion volunteer.





All the sibling rivalry aside, the F18's are good dependable boats that will give you alot of enjoyment.

I won't really look too much at strict one-design status of a F18 (like the Tiger) too much. F18 is where the real racing is, it isn't in any of the OD F18 spin-offs. Also you'll want the more open class rules that the F18 has over figuring out what a manufacturer will allow for the next season.





Dependents a little bit on where you are. For example, the F16 and F18 fleets are regatta's in Florida are of the same size. In the great lakes area the F16 is very much an open class boat (at this time).

Sea-worthiness is not a factor to worry about when comparing F16's to F18's. Many non-F16 sailors can be found to claim otherwise, but truly and honestly that is just prejudice. This is not denying any differences between the two, afterall the two boats are different designs, but an F16 will handle big water just as well as an F18.


If you ask me then the real choice, if it comes down between F18 and F16, should be decided on what are going to do with your new boat. If you going for mostly doublehanded sailing with a serious schedule of class racing then F18 will be your ticket. Plain and simple.

However, if you mostly want to do fast reacreational sailing, both doublehanded or singlehanded, with now and then a larger regatta in either mode then F16 will be your ticket.

For recreational sailing fleet numbers don't really count. Also it must not be forgotten that F16's and F18's are very comparable in the way they are fitted out and overall performance. The last will mean you can just share a start with F18's and race them first-in-wins. In the way of speed experience and sailng skills both boats will be very much the same. The F16's have as added benefit that they are much lighter and allow you to sail and race singlehanded really well. If for some reason your wife can't join you then that is not problem at all. One person can unload and rig the F16 without outside help and also sail them, incl spinnaker. It is this aspect that have seen a good number of crews decide for the F16 even if no other F16's were around them. It is also my own main reason to sail and F16. I find that I do the most sailing ever with the F16 as there is no reason not to go sailing when I want to. Crews can show up or leave at the last moments and I can switch between both roles within the time span to hoist or lower my jib sail.

It is therefor my personal opinion that F16's are very attractive for crews that mostly do recreational sailing with a high performance intent. In that role I really do believe the F16's to be better then F18's simply because of the ease to switch from 1-up to 2-up sailing while not sacrifizing any performance or safety.

In some area's F16 racing is approaching a viable class racing structure but as any new class we need to grow into this role progressively during the future. At one time the F18's started with only a handful of boats in Northern France. Over the span of years it grew to the large class it is now. It is illogical for the F16 class to grow in any other way. And F16 grow is steady and secure,

Good luck with your choice

Wouter

I don't think you were out of line! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> You do have a wry sense of humor though! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

For the record, I will make only two claims: 1) I like this boat better than any other I've owned. 2) It is lighter than most boats, certainly lighter than any of my other boats.

On the east coast in 2006:

Tradewinds (6)
Gulfport Invitational (8)
JPOR (5)


and currently signed up for 2007 Tradewinds are 5 with an expected turnout of 9.

We never claimed these things, it is the other side that has intepreted the things we did say as such. Not our fault.


No boat is weight insensitive, not are the F16's. We are however less weight sensitive then many think us to be. Also it has more to do with the new modern hullshapes and the high speed of the boats then mast and sail combo's. I think I have written 1000's of times that the older Taipan 4.9 (my own boat) is noticeably more sensitive then the newer boats like Blade and Stealth F16's. The higher speeds and spinnaker have moved the onus much more to sailor skills then crew weight. Currently angle of attack limitations are holding the boats back more then crew weight differences do.

I don't think that anybody said that the F16 goes upwind like a N20. As a matter of fact there interesting differences between the two boats. In strong winds I have no trouble beating I-20's when going upwind, in light winds I do my very best to even stay close. It is also telling that the best US F16 crew fought a 60 minute upwind battle with the best US I-20 crew as recently as this years Hagars run. F18's were trailing behind. But I don't think that this is sufficient ground yet to claim "An F16 goes upwind like an N20"

We do claim however that F16's go upwind like an F18 and that has been proven many times over. Most strikingly at the Alter Cup qualifier area D last november. You yourself (on an F18) had to yield to the McDonalds on an F16; and I'm talking about elasped time finishes here, no handicap calculations. You've lost 4 out of 7 races to that F16 crew and that would have been 5 out of 7 if thay hadn't hooked the finish bouy anker line.





And I fully agree with you on this statement. If an untruth has been told by any F16 owner then I'll be among the first to admit to that. Problem at this time may be however that we didn't tell any untruths yet.

I'm sorry

Wouter

(Thanks for this bickering, I enjoy it ! )

About twice as long as the F18HT ever existed in the USA. We started before they started and we are still here and growing 3 years after the F18HT blew up.

I guess we F16 sailors will be just another of those 20-year running hypes. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />





Sloop :

The first was springfever 2002, more events followed since then.

Uni :

The Gulfport A-cat/F16 invitationals pre 2006 as that year it was decided to have 1-up and 2-up F16's to race as a single class.


Wouter

Ding,
Remember, it's only a FAD!

BC <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Hey Bob,

Are you interested in joining the F16's in first in wins racing at the Tradewinds regatta ? The same invitation goes out to that other nacra-17 (F17) listed.

The more souls the merrier. Besides this is your shot at truly trashing some F16's ! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Wouter

I will reinforce something Robi said.
I am sick of everyone talking about classes. Unless you live near a BUNCH of other boats the same as you the whole discussion is pointless. Looking at my area where there are certainly a bunch of rock stars there is still no "class" to speak of. The N20s outnumber the other boats but even one of the local rockstars who has been around this sport forever told me that unless you are going to go to nationals, etc for the F18, N20, F16, 17R then there is no such thing as a local class. Who, aside from rock stars, go to nationals anyway? Look at Brian Lambert, certainly a rock star by any standard, who sails a CFR20! WTF?
Look at Curry, another rock star, sails a 17R! And what, there are 2 more in this area? I did a race last year where there were a total of 3 6.0s.
So, unless the state is going to take over cat racing and have some cat sailing dictatorship then pick a boat you like because of how it sails, the size, etc. I am looking at a jav2. Yes, start slinging.. but you know why? Because it is light, simple (anything is simple compared to the 6.0), I can sail it solo, and CHEAP right now. In truth, I race probably less than 20% of the time. This is fine because I have plenty of fun working on the boat and trying to tune things. Besides, not being a rock star myself, the competition around here is a little over my head (ok, way over). The only reason why I continue to even try to race around here is that the other sailors are actually pretty cool guys and don't mind helping the underdogs.

Sorry, I just get sick of my boat better than yours type arguments and when you add "my class has more boats than yours" it gets even worse.

My boat isn't better, it's just mine! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> So tell us more about the Javelin! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Sheesh!! Let's get this right, I said

NOT

or is faster than an N20, or any other boat for that matter.

I was reiterating what was told to me by a H20 racer who has been on the Blade with MattM for the benifit of Stuart.

It kind of depends where in the country you are sailing. I moved to FL from an area where you sailed a Hobie or did not race at all (16 or 20, the other Hobie models were treated the same as the other X brands)

When I came to FL it seamed there was at least 1 of every boat made at any given regatta. There was a pretty core group of I20's but they all disbanded to jump on the F18 bandwagon a couple of years ago, other wise it was portsmouth racing. I will not argue the plus and minus of Portsmouth racing again in this tread, but to compete head to head on our H16 with the big boats it had to be blowing 30 plus which is pretty rare in Florida.

When we started looking to upgrade everyone pushed the F18 class as the next great thing, but shy of Nationals there was not realy any more racing locally than anything else. I ended up not going that way due to the weight (both boat and required crew) The F16 fit exactly with what I was wanting in a boat. I now have a boat that is competitve on the water and is a blast to sail. I may not be able to beat the big dogs but that is me as I would most likely not have beaten them even if I was on the same platform.

Sail what works for you. If you want to race and there is handicap racing then your choices are endless, but you can not listen to what people say especially on this forum. Wouter gets pretty wound up about this, but as far as miss-truths go, there is significantly more negative bashing going on than the opposite.

See you on the water

Matt

(Who knows, Tradewinds, we may even be on the big course this year) <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Hey guys and girls, at the end of the day its goner be horses for courses, for me personally its all about grin factor. Which boat do I get the grin factor from, well a F16 because I tend to sail it single handed, have to launch it single handed and I have a couple of nippers who ocassionaly come along for the ride.

If on the other hand I was going to be a dedicated racer ( with deep pockets to pay for the yearly upgrades to remain competative ) who had a biggish gorrilla as a mate who was prepared to race every race then it would be probably a F18.

Oh decisions to make and so much blinkered advice ?

Oooops... my bad. Did I get that wrong. So what exactly does it "feels" like it goes upwind like an F18 or N20 mean? Couldn't every multihull make that claim to one degree or another?

I never gave it much thought before, but I've "heard" that the Hobie Wave "feels" like an F16 going upwind.

Okay who let the [censored] adult into this thread! Geesh!

Judging from the caliber of sailors on Waves recently, I'll take that as a compliment!

As a spectator, I'm enjoying the show. Certain situations "feel" about the same no matter what cat--see photo.

I say we drown the creator of this thread.
<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Oh cummon! What's a little banter just to get the juices flowing for "Tradewinds"! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Oh no, this is great. This could go on 'til eternity. Rather than mucking up legitimate posts, you can say "meet you on the bickering thread" and then just wail away on each other. Better that pay per view boxing. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Yeah, it'd be nice if Wouter came, that way he and Ding could arm wrestle to see who the real hombre is.

I didn't say 'untruths' did I? Interesting that you read it that way though. I'd apolgise for not being clear, but it's not my fault that you read it wrong.

The stories are more along the lines of omission. Take for example your story about my performance at the Area D's. I finished sixth at that event, not exactly my finest hour, kinda falls into that 'also ran' status. And yes Matt and Gina sailed a heck of a race, but the other side of that story is that the Jason's (F18) and Kenny and JC (N20) sailed a better series. Significantly better! Between the two teams they took 6 of the 7 bullets. So what does this say about the F16, F18 and N20... I don't know! I'm going to wait for the results of the Alter Cup this spring. Then we'll see if its the boat or if it's the team... my money is on "it's the team".

I hate to spoil all the fun by being rational, but. . .

According to JW, the F16 Dpn may soon drop because of the boats performance (MATT!!). So, it appears that the F16s and F18s are much, much closer than you might suspect. At least two F18 sailors, who shall remain nameless ( after all I wouldn't Ding and BK to get upset with me)have suggested we should all be sailing even up! If I understand it correctly, this is the trend in Europe. But, you'll have to ask Wouter about that!

The point is designers are doing great work across the board, resulting in a very competitive beach cat community.

For the record... Bob Curry made me do it!

Why don't they just split the difference and come up with an F17 class? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

This is too good to be true! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

POPCORN! POPCORN! GET YOUR POPCORN HERE! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

enter wouter....

F17s http://nacraclass.com/F17.htm

F17 won Cat Fight (Spinnaker Div.) against I-20s, F18s & Tornados





Those totals were a combo of sloops & unis. I wouldn't exactly call those East Coast Races, it really seem that the F16 is only raced in Florida Area.

Ted

But I thought the F17 class is not a true formula class!

OH [censored]! another can of worms just popped open.

Oh dear lord.

Sailed a javelin w/JD Soloman at OBX several years ago. Suprisingly fast boat, very light. The rudder system was a little complicated for me, ripped a rudder off. That boat rolled upwind with, and passed Tigers. All was well until we got stuck in the weeds. F16 uni sailed solo, why couldn't the F18 be rigged uni and sailed solo? Obviously more mainsail and larger spin but should be manageable by a largeish skipper in moderate winds. Why is the F16 sailed sloop or uni but not the F18?

May I play too..? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />The Taipan 5.7 would be faster than both the f16 and the f18, probably the N20 and maybe even the Tornado had it gone through the same rigging and sail development as the other classes. Proof? Ask Macca..

I occasionally sail the F18 solo and it has a lot of horsepower for one person. You can outrun other F18s very easily in this configuration up until about 12 knots and then you're depowering so much that you get left behind just about as quickly (with or without the jib furled). It would not be anywhere near an "even fight" on a uni vs. double handed F18.

This thread is stupid, thanks Tiki <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Sail the boat you like. The important part is to go sailing.

My opinions on the questions/assertions above:
1. There is a small USF16 Class Association trying to grow the class at a regional level within the US. Only time will tell if this effort will be successful.
2. Most F16s are in the Southeast. Although you will find them scattered to the Northeast and West coasts in Open class racing (I know, you HATE handicap racing).
3. F16s sailors usually choose the boat for the versatililty and open box rules.
4. Most often, not always, F16 sailors are debating to buy F16 or A Class or F17 - NOT F18. Different needs are met by each boat.
5. No claims about speed. It feels fast. It is fun to sail.
6. F17 class racing is limited to the Great Lakes Region.
7. If you want large single class racing on the nat'l level, find a crew and go F18.
8. I like the 18HT, too. Cool boats.
9. How much more time before the fad is over?
10. Most F16 haters haven't sailed one and/or have issues with a certain F16 sailors.
11. Handicap racing, while disliked, will be around for the forseeable future. Might as well sail what keeps you active.

See you at the bar at Tradewinds.

I liked the thread with the kid that was trying to get us to look at the powercat website.... THAT GOT CAT SAILORS TO PULL TOGETHER. This one just splits us up and we should freeze it here. Stop. no more.

Then you are taking it way too seriously!

Guys, I'm really puzzled.... is this F16/F18/A N Other boat bickering purely a US thing? (and only made international via this forum)

In the UK we just don't get any of this "my boat's faster/better/lighter/cheaper/more expensive than yours" stuff. I've also not experienced it in Europe.

On this side of the pond we all seem to rub along really well and take a GENUINE interest in each others boats. I've had F18, Hurricane and Tornado sails ask for a ride on the Stealth. I, in turn, have begged a blast on a T. At combined class opens we all give each other a hand and don't give a monkey's */$^ what someone else is sailing.

Don't get me wrong, it's not idyllic, we're not all holding hands and be extremely polite to each other. But, we're not bickering or slating each others choice of boat.

The F16s in the UK have been INVITED to join the A's for their Nationals and our 2005 combined meeting with the FX1s is to become a regular fixture.

There just doesn't seem to be room for any inter class animosity over here. Rivalry? Yes. Animosity? No.

Hey, I am dead serious!! Me and my GRANDMOTHER on an upgraded Taipan 5.7 could blast all you guys!! With our eyes closed. Enjoying fine wine while on the wire.. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

I'm sure there have been murders committed over whether Ford or Chevy make the best truck.


Don't you guys get a little testy over who has the best football team?

Anyway, I got tired of hearing about midget boats and hidden servos. So, when this thread finally dies, I doubt you'll hear those terms very often.

Nah this only happens on the retardnet. I have gotten so much help on the water and on the beach from local rock stars. It is a humbling experience.

I have never been in a situation where people will come up to me and say my boat is this or that. Everyone is pretty darn friendly. Its an retardnet thing, makes everything a little less personal.

John,

I've never seen any animosity in person at regattas. It seems to only exist on the internet. Damn that Al Gore.

The atmosphere at regattas is more as you describe.

We do an A cat/F16 regatta at GYC in the Spring.

" I finished sixth at that event, not exactly my finest hour, kinda falls into that 'also ran' status "


Hey Dingram, what was your finest hour or are you just an "also ran" with blinkered views <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

As you no doubt know, the number of catamaran racers in the US has been in decline for quite some time. Many folks have the feeling that there's not room for more than a couple of healthy classes. At best it seems to be a zero-sum game, where the success of one class can only come at the expense of another. And that's where the bickering starts, IMHO.

No boat ever beats another boat.
Skippers beat skippers.
I find it amusing when guys talk about what boat they beat across the line. Who was the driver?
Lets all assume the F16 is the best built, most technically advanced wonder machine on any planet.
Put a newbie on it and it won't beat anything.
The same is true for all boats.

It seems that there is the competive OD/Formula racing crowd and the go sailing at a competition crowd.
Both are fine and will never agree on what is best.
I like to see great skippers sail against each other on the same boat. Doesn't matter what it is.
We go to Canandaigua where the Sharks have an open event every year. Each year a good skipper wins.
John Perrin has been winning races on his Shark before most of us were born.
The problem is that the winner is usually determined by the wind conditions. The Shark has a window. The Tiger,16,I20, A etc.. also have their window.
I have a hard time with the top 5 finishers all being on differant boats and rarely being near each other on the course.
It takes away so much of what I believe racing should be. A good skipper still wins, but it's not the same.

As long as this is about bickering, we all do realize the Hobie 16 is the best, right? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I'll throw in an: "Oh Dear Lord" for Jake

'cause he eats Kennel Ration!

duh!

As far as I'm concerned, the H16 is the daddy!

BUT, once you discover what a modern boat is like to sail, I'm afraid the H16 becomes a beach boat that you hire while on holiday. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Yes, it's got good class racing and some real good sailors, but if the weapon of choice had been a Shark or a Paper Tiger/Shearwater/Lynx or any of those 'state of the art' cats from the 60s and they'd grown instead of the H16 then we'd be having the conversation about one of them. That doesn't make any of them the best racing class though (or the best anything).

The best boat for any sailor is the boat that suits their lifestyle/pocket/need at the stage that they are at. For some that'll be an Aquacat or (God forbid) a Peanut (anyone remember them?). For others it'll be a H14 or 16 or 18. For many it's F18 or Tornado. I, and others, find the flexibility of F16 to be our preference. None of them can really be called the best boat though.

I don't mind rivalry or informed comment even on a bickering thread, but I find some of the comments to be verging on plain ignorant (and I'm not referring to you Pat over your tongue in cheek H16 comment). If a thread heads off into anarchy as this particular thread has the potential to do, no-one will win. It's just divisive, and with the post about declining catsailing in the US, that's the last thing any of you should want.

Rant over.

What you said... just an "also ran" with blinkered views.

Relax John, geeze you can be so superior sometimes.

Indeed. To say you need to a gorrilla to be on the front of an F18 is bs. Most certainly some physical strength and endurance is required and that is mainly a matter of sailing the boat a lot over a couple of months to develop the specific muscle set required to run the boats (ie hand strenth).

The combined crew weights of the F18 boats are generally getting lighter. Have you seen Glenn Ashby lately??? He is not a huge guy (although very strong). Heck - I have sailed races with a 45 kg 18yo girl on the front in 20 kts. We were a little lighter than I would have liked to be but sheesh it flew! (well ok - a lot lighter)

Tiger Mike

Wow - the most concise summary that I pretty much fully agree with! I **REALLY** dislike handicap racing however I think it will always be around.

Tiger Mike

Dingram,

I'm not being superior (I'm anything but!) and that was not my intention. If that's the way I came over - I'm sorry. I guess I just don't understand the entrenched attitudes that seem to keep cropping up on this forum........... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

It is used to expres the experience that the boat feels more smooth and controllable then an ordinary 16 footer. It is the result of the new hull shape and the improved rudder design and also a little of the sail controls.

Now back to some more bickering ! Yeahhh <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Wouter

Ohhh it is the team alright. At this level you simply can't buy a win. The very much mixed results at Area D proofs that, not a single brand dominated the top places.





Yeah we've been hearing that for years now as well. Think 2005 Bouy race series and the rerun this year in that same contest. The F16 Alter Cup qualifier Area D win in 2003 and a score of other races that were all 1-time lucky shots.

<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />"bishop to D4, your next move Ding ? " <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Wouter

It is a US thing.

Hell, I threw out my back this season from helping to step all those F18 masts !

Seriously, on the beach there isn't that much bickering between makes at all. Were I sail nearly all races are open class anyway. If you sail well on any boat then you get congratulated by all.

Hell, the Dutch F16 class is headed by a guy who races and owns both an A-cat and F16.

Persoanally I enjoy being on the start of the F18's, A's and others.

But all "fun" aside I think when all US sailors hook up at some event that this is not much different. Last time I went over to the USA for a regatta I had a great time and everybody was friendly. The bickering on this forum is just that; "bickering on a forum"

Wouter

Ill stick with my beloved mosquito. Soon to have a kite.
But if people offer Ill take a ride on an f18

Where do you sail?

Now that all hell has broke loose thanks to Tiki P, I would like to wish all Cat sailors everywhere and whatever they ride on a very Happy Christmas and enjoyable New Year. My little boy has just advised me that Santa Claus has ditched Rudolph to sail solo on a F16, Rudolph is pretty pissed off so he and Blitzen are going to team up on a Tornado. Vixen and Donder will carry on campaigning the Tiger. Prancer just spent his Christmas bonus on a new 'A' Cat. Dancer doesn't sail much but wants to accumulate over 10k posts during the next season and poor old Dasher doesn't give a F**k.

Hey,

No reindeer sails a Hobie 16 ?

How can that be ?!??!!

Wouter

Only 4592 to Wouter <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

John, I'm just messing with you... I never took this thread that seriously. If the Hobie edict didn't hurt us, a little [censored] fight between friends isn't even going to be a blip on the radar.

I do enjoy yanking Wouter's chain though.

I guess it's a compliment to have you use the F18 and N20 as your yardstick, but the sad news is you'll always come up short. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

The Hobie 16 is reserved for The Baby Jesus himself <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Pat shoots and... SCOOOOOOORRRRRRRREEEEEEEE!!!

More bickering? Ok, here you go:

You all should stop wanting a boat that "feels" like a Nacra 20 going upwind - stop screwing around trying to get other lesser wimpier boats to "feel" that way and GO BUY A NACRA-20! No heavy F-18 masts to bust your back! No worries about whether your f-16 can handle your "supersize me" butt! No debating whether one design can resist going down the mine more than another!

Your catamaran prayers have been answered! Visit Our Lady of the Screaming Reach and be saved, Brother! All it takes is to give yourself to the one and true boat to believe in, the Nacra-20!

Bicker on!

So if the Blade F16 is so hot, how come there aren't any clips on YouTube or Google Video?

I smell a fad... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Because we are too busy sailing instead of making videos. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

You'll see two Blades racing in these clips. You can also see promo clips on our website. You may also notice that the Stealth's are in front!!
www.sailwave.com/stuff/mcp_drop.avi 60Mb
www.sailwave.com/stuff/dscf3309.avi 40Mb
www.sailwave.com/stuff/r11start.avi 60Mb
www.sailwave.com/stuff/r12lap4.avi 40Mb
www.sailwave.com/stuff/r12start.avi 80Mb
www.sailwave.com/stuff/r12finish.avi 110Mb

It is not about how big *it* is but how you handle it !

And yes it is a complement to the F18's, A's and such that they are used as bench marks. They're are not succesful classes for nothing are they ?

If you decide to become a player then you better be prepared to play big.

Wouter

Stewart,

This thread is the same ol' rehash but fun to read. Your geographic area (Cleveland, et al) is a hot bed for F18's...and more specifically...Tigers. If your remotely interested...get a ride on an F18 and come play with us. You won't regret it <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Tiger? A distinct possibility, and regardless of what we end up on, we'll likely do some sailing in MI so are paths are likely to cross.

See you on the water, for a beer, or both! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Knock it off!! This the animosity thread! Go be courteous and civil some place else! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

And merry Christmas too! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Nah...no beer. Tequila is my poison especially in a margarita <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> If you come up to da mitten our paths will definitely cross.