Can't use the beach!!!

I live in Oklahoma and love the sailing that I have available to me but last time i went out I got a shock.

I sail on lake Thunderbird because it is very close to my home, I would like to make it up to lake Hefner every time but it is to far to drive so I go with Thunderbird.

I usually set the boat up and put it in the water where the old Highway 9 runs into the water. It is really nice because it is a beach yet there it still a nice solid base for your tires. I had been putting my boat in the water there for all of last summer and last time i went out the local park ranger came out and told me that I wasn't allowed to use that place any more. The reason... it wasn't a boat ramp. I don't understand, if I wanted to pull my up on the beach there I could but heaven forbid that I back my car up there and put the boat in the water from there. I could understand if I left my car on the beach but I drive it almost a 1/4 mile to the parking lot for the park. I can't understand the problem, I don't block anything when I do it and it is a dead end road.

There isn't a single place around that serves the purpose as well, most places are just a giant concrete parking lot with a concrete boat ramp. Places like that just don't get along with my boat well. So I don't know what to do, is there anyone I can talk to about getting this wonderful beach opened up to sailors?

Tell him it is a beach cat....... Not a boat ramp cat.

Do you have any local laws with regards to launching boats. Would the ranger have the same problem if it was a canoe or a wind surfer.

I would understand he would have a problem if you were backing your boat into the water, but if you are sliding it off the trailer and wheeling it into down to the water once rigged....... Then I can not see the logic.

I do back my boat down there but not into the water. I never get closer than about 40 yard to the water with my car, from there it is cattrax all the way.

I have seen alot of people back PWC's in there and never had anything said to them. I am not sure if it was just bad luck that day or if the ranger had something against sailboats.

Also I would understand if there were fee's at the boat ramps but they are all free.

So why not use the ramp then?

I hate setting the boat up on the trailor and it makes coming in alot harder. There are always alot of power boaters around the boat ramp and just getting close to it make me feel like I am in danger. Granted during the winter it wouldn't be a problem other than the concrete everywhere. Also when sailing solo, if I want to use the boat ramp I have to back the boat in and then pull it up somewhere. The problem with this is that I block the ramp for a while, and all the bank around the ramps is rock. So I have to walk my boat at least 100 yards down the bank before I get to a place I can leave the boat.

If I use the beach I can just leave the boat set there on the beach while I drive my car out of the way. Then I can head out sailing.

In general I use the beach because it causes less problems for all the other boaters on the water. Maybe I need to explain this to the rangers. But they just seemed pretty adament about me not using the beach.

It looks like you are bearing the brunt of the PWCs actions. If you are launching direct into the water, then a ramp should be used. If you are not than anywhere should be fine. Why don't you take the cat off at quiet some distance away and wheel it all the way to the water.

I'd go research the local laws. You are saying Park Ranger, is it a Federal Park? If so, make sure you dont get in trouble with a Federal Park Ranger, they carry guns and have broad federal powers. A ticket from a Federal Park Ranger has to be settled in Federal Court and you have to go stand in front of a Federal Judge.

If its a local park, go talk to the local people. Find a someone in charge and explain what you want to do, and ask their advice. I've found most people are very helpful if you approach them with a problem and ask for their advice or assistance.

I suspect that if you leave your car on the road, you might have less issues with the ranger, use the beach wheels for the whole trip from the road to the water. Or if he shows up next time, ask him what is allowable.

That is what I am going to have to resort to. It was just so nice to be able to drive up drop the boat off, the just ake my time setting it up and launching. Also I could just sail right up to the beach. If I use the boat ramps then I have to be a little more careful.

I don't know why they have the problem, that is what I am really interested in. Why do you think they would have a problem with me launching from the dead end.

I agree that you need to find out what the specific law(s) are. Maybe they have some ridiculous law like the one here in the Keys that says you cannot launch a boat off the shore unless you are launching directly into 4 feet of water. It obviously was intended to refer to launching ramps where the water is supposed to be 4 feet deep at the bottom of the ramp. But some people, including a former county biologist, interpreted that to refer to launching off a beach, as well. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> She also said that it applies to sailboats, but not to sailboards.

Her adamant stand about this kept us from trying to buy a piece of property with beach that we wanted to use for a small sailing center, back in the early 1990's.

In my very limited amount of experience I have had with county ordinances here in Brevard County Florida, heres my understanding of how some of these rules come about:

And again, my experience is limited.

First, someone perceives there is a problem. Either a private group, or individuals, or a county employee as a result of public complaints.

The issue catches the attention of the appropriate county department, which often then forms a working or study group to investigate the problem.

The study group develops a report which makes recommendations to the county commisioners. The commisioners then decide if, and with which recommendations to move forward with a public hearing on the issue.

Hopefully, interested parties are made aware of the hearing and are able to get involved, however late at this point.

My experience is that often the problem is that we (catsailors) are not often included in the study groups on issues that affect us. This could be for a number of reasons:

1. We dont know the issue exists
2. We are not invited
3. No one has the time to get involved, meetings are often held during the middle of the day
4. Interested parties dont want us there

The recommendations that come out of study groups are important. County commisioners often act directly on them.

In Florida about a year or two ago we went through the register your beachcat, kayak, and canoe issue again. The issue was raised by the powerboat community, who cared little about the non-motorized boating community, but saw us as a source of income to build them more boat ramps. I luckily found out about the study group meetings from a kayak group and when I attended and asked about the impact of beach cats, there had been absolutley no previous discussion about it. The kayak, canoe, and sailing communities came together and helped get the recommendation worded in such a way to remove the non-motorized portion of it. To me, it was scary how these things can happen essentially behind closed doors if we dont get involved.

Another example of involement is the Pineda Park near Scott Hubels Performance Sail shop. An entire new park was planned, with no facilities planned for non-motorized boats. Scott spent two years, numourous meetings, phone calls, etc not only to get the non-motorized launch included, but also got high voltage power lines along US1 moved at an addition cost of over a $100,000 to the park. It can be done.

When NAMSA came about, I personally didnt quite see the purpose, as in my opinion it was duplicating a number of efforts. However, if NAMSA were to take on one and only one mission, to provide a website of information and communication forum that would help catsailors across the country learn how to deal and work towards preserving and generating new beach access, I would be a strong proponent.

I believe on issues that effect catsailors, it comes down to the squeaky wheel.

Ok, end rant.

Brian

That's a beautiful rant. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> You are absolutely right.

I sail at Thunderbird regularly and don't have any issues with them telling me I can't use the beach. I launch my Inter 20 from the beach at Sailboat point. Which is on the other side of the marina from where you describe.

I have also used the ramp at the Zoom beach area. I typically roll my boat down the ramp on the beach wheels, then pull it over to the beach.

Bill Etchieson

End your "RANTS" about boat ramps,park rangers,pwc's and mast up storage. Move to beautiful Delray Beach fl. where at present thier are 35 spaces free for 213.00 a year for residence of the city.Besides we could use an infusion of fresh sailors that will actually use thier boats more than me.

I didn't know there was a beach over across the marina, that may solve the problem.

How often are you out there. I have never seen you and I spent 2 or 3 days a week on the water last summer. If you sail very often I am sure I will see you out there.

I will send you a PM with beach details and my sailing schedule.

I live in the Bay of Islanads, New Zealand and we are behind the times so a dinghy or small boat or beach cat can legally be left on any of the reserves on the waters edge at no cost.
Mast up storage is easy. Living here and making money is not so easy. So there are not that many people. These are good things for my life.
My rant is this.
Rich people with low self esteem and giant egos buying bigger and bigger plastic boats they use once a year so they can say they have a boat. This marginalises real water people by pushing them out of marinas, swing moorings etc. The infrastructure is all stressed by them and so registration and money collecting follows. Follow on from not using their giant boats enough is that the silly season sees them all crashing around the Bay creating giant wakes and cutting people off as they rush nowhere, oblivious to any sea rules. I mean are those Rivs designed specifically to push as much water out of the way as they can?
Paridise Bay (small intimate setting) and in comes a butt-ugly 140 foot speedboat. People are all rafted up in their little holliday water homes or sailing dinghies, laughing and swimming and bouncing around in the sun and some woman is three stories up on an exercycle in air conditioned remoteness.
Can't we get them to out big shiny [censored] each other with moon buggies instead because water has nothing to do with who they are.

Seems us fellas in OZ are behind the times like our brothers accross the Tasman.

Further more..... We do not have to register our boats or hold a licence. We do not even need insurance which I believe is a bad thing, however to race at any club now you must hold a certain level of 3rd party insurance.

Why not come down and join the Boyz Down Under <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Thankfully boaties here are wildly anti registration as are the fishing lobby. So much so the local bodies have no show.
People try to justify the rego idea because of jet skies and they know most boaties hate them. Wedge in the door stuff. But let's face it, more law more law more law. bugger that. We miss out on occasion but who needs Mommy looking after us all of the time?
I would rather put up with the idiots out there than have police at me while I am trying get to away from exactly that.

And that's exactly why all the real sailors in the States want to move to Austrailia and New Zealand! Here in the US we've got one Lawyer for every 8 bodies! It's become all about liability and property rights.

Meanwhile, all the "good" property is being bought up by developers who are making it off limits to anyone but those few who can afford the $3 Million per. condos they are building. That would be those same people with the huge yacths at the marina!

To tie two threads together (this one and the one about the need for a new F12 foot cat to bring new people into sailing) I will say future growth depends more on easy, cheap ACCESS to the water than any new boat design.

Unfortunately, Beach Cats need a Beach to launch from. Most of the beaches are privately owned or if not, then you have the problems described above with the park rangers/life gurards/city codes not allowing a beach cat on the beach. Most private Yacht Clubs do not have beaches, just a boat ramp or a lift for launching boats. But the kids can cary an Opti (or Laser) down the dock and toss it in the water. And they stack up nicely when you are done. And there is a national training pipeline established to take a kid from age 8-18. No such pipeline exists in the cat world. So before we go off building more cats nobody wants, why don't we work on the youth training pipeline and more beach access? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Is it just me or did you just answer your own question about why we need a new cat design ?


"But the kids can cary an Opti (or Laser) down the dock and toss it in the water ... No such pipeline exists in the cat world."


Now you work on getting more beach access over the property of millionairs and their lawyers while I work on getting a cat design that can be used on existing launch sites still open to (young) sailors.

Lets see who will be succesful first shall we ?

You guys want to fly before you have provided yourself with the tools you'll need to take to the air.

Wouter

Wouter, we will need both, keep up the design work. But it does sound like a clasic "Chicken or the Egg" type of problem. Which to we go for first?

I have only a couple of hours left before my own deadline (normal life starting again incl. work)

But I quite thrilled with the design so far and I think the basic design will be finished shortly.

I would love to sail myself one I can tell you that.

Wouter

As with the case of gree, we have an occasional Park Ranger to deal with. We've also found that getting an audience with them, explaining what we do and what we'd "like" to do (explaining the concept of BEACH cats and how they're different from trailer boats) resulted in much more than we'd ever expected (in our case signing a lease with the Corps to build a sailing center).

Sitting here among the wide open prairie of the mid-west I obviously haven't lived the coastal situations. I empathize and wish I had an answer. I don't know what to do for you. I can encourage inland folks to take our example and start talking to the "authorities" in charge. When presented from the public access and NOT the private club point of view you'll be astounded at the response. Find a lawyer that sails (shouldn't be hard?) and take him with you.

Yep, no problem launching there and as a matter of fact I would say it's the best spot on the lake. One of the bonuses is watching the power boaters and jet ski clowns try to back down the ramp. We have sat there with a few beers and rated them on single attemps, multiple attemps and changing to qualified driver. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> I have some great stories.

I went out there on Sunday to try and get on the water. Sadly the ramp where you are talking about is torn up. It looks like they are going to repave it or something. I didn't see where you could get a dolly down to the water anywhere there and beside that I am out a dolly right now. I loaned it to a friend that moved to Florida until summer. I ended up launching from the boat ramp about two miles north of the marina. It worked okay but if there were very many boats launching it would have not been fun.

I imagine I will see you out there once it gets warm.

The preacher has entered the building.

Actually the ramp is just closed because of low water. What you saw at the end of the ramp is a whole dug by motor boats using their engines to push up on the trailer.

Normally we would rig our boats at the top of the hill, and roll down on the grass using our beach wheels. We don't really even use the ramp that's closed.

Wasn't it sleeting and below freezing on Sunday?

If we don't get more water in Lake Thunderbird by spring, I will probably sail at Lake Eufaula which has plenty of water right now.

Bill E.

When was the last time you were out there? There is a pile of concrete at the top of the ramp... they tore it up with something big. We didn't go out Sunday it was Thursday we went out, that was the day before the ice storm and it was nearly 60 outside.

Hey Bill, have you thought about Arcadia? Since Hefner is so freaking low we were talking about weekend road trips up there till we get some water. Theres supposed to be a release on January 20th of 3'-0" but that's just a drop it the bucket so to speak. We'll see what develops.

I know there are other lakes around that I could go to but I like to be able to run over to the lake and be in the water in less than an hour, I sail alot of mornings before work and evening after school. So I have to be able to drive there in less than 20 minutes, I mean even Hefner is a little out of my reach for a daysail. Plus driving a long ways gets expensive!!!

I was there last week.

Actually they repaired the ramp when the water level first got so low. What you saw was the pieces they took out and replaced. They are using the old chunks of concrete to keep the silly jet skiers from trying to use a ramp that doesn't even reach the water right now.

Like I said we set up in the parking lot and roll down the hill on beach wheels on the grass.

The problem with this lake it is over populated with motor boats and jet ski's. You aren't going to get away from them without going to a lake further away. You just have to figure out a way to share the ramp areas with them.

Bill E.

Check into lake Lawtonka. Lots of the old cat sailors from Thunderbird moved their boats down there years ago.

Supposedly they have good beach access, and it is a realatively lightly used lake.

Bill E.

I don't mind sharing it with them, but it can be a bother when they act like idiots. Sorry, I just saw all the rubble and assumed the ramp was torn up. I didn't even walk over there.

I would have just rolled the cat to the beach but I loaned my beach wheels to a friend who was going to Florida for the winter. I didn't think I would be sailing all winter long, plus I had that great spot I used to use where I could just back up to the water.

Another bad thing is that the water is to far away now, Even with the beach wheels it would not be a fun haul to get the boat to the water.

I will have to check out where Lawtonka is!

Lawtonka is in the southwestern part of Oklahoma. It is very near Lawton Oklahoma. I-44 should take you fairly close.

Bill E.