Tornado OCR's... the FUBAR by US Saling... again

Interview with Bundy and Gasby on the OCR win!

Bundy spoke


Before everyone looks at the US Sailing website and listens to the propaganda as to what a great event the OCR is they should understand Bundy's comments.

Gary Bodie, our HIGHLY PAID Olympic Coach has NOT made the Tornado class event remotely world class.

The launch site is 13 miles from the race area! This launch was put together by one of the sailing teams years ago because the Miami Yacht club alternative set up by Bodie was even worse. US Sailing once again is unable to solve
this critical problem. Every other class gets to race within a short sail to their race course. The Tornado's sail through each and every fleet on their way to the bottom of Key Biscayne. Why they can’t shuffle some fleets
down the bay to share the inconvenience OR get enough tow boats to move the fleet around is not clear…. Maybe the coach should solve some of these problems!

FYI, The launch site is public launch ramp with a parking lot. Over time.. one of the Tornado teams worked out details with the park to manage their training before
the event.. So US Sailing's contribution THIS YEAR was .. OK .. Bodie will manage it and pay for the Park's usage... After all of these years US sailing needs to solve the real problem…. 13 miles to the race course is
silly! But not as silly as putting the official Notice Board at the US Sailing Center … oh.. 15 miles away from the nearest Tornado!

So given the current launch and regatta area. If the wind is questionable... What do you do... In 4 knots of breeze... 13 miles is a LONG SAIL. Most fleets can wait it out on shore... even for the Tornadoo the time it takes to get to the Race course... set the course and run the race
take HOURS. Fortunately PU guesses right most of the time and keeps the fleet on the parking lot.

If the breeze is on... you can do the miles quickly. BUT by the time you get the third race of the day. (1.5 mile legs) ... you are TOASTED... Oh yeah... you get to sail home again ... 13 more miles.

We call a 26 mile round trip sail … “a DISTANCE Race “!

So when Bundy says... they are exhausted... you can get a real sense of why that is so.

These problems are not new…. Its just a lack of leadership over years that fails to solve these problems.

Does the OCR have enough boats to get the fleet out to the course and back on a tow... No!

Do they have any RIBS and personnel that can assist a flipped Tornado... NO!

Hell... do they have anybody with experience who can set the pin... No!...
PU had to hop on a boat and set the damn thing himself the first time and then got one of the coaches to set it for him there after. Rumor has it that he used an 80 foot Hatteras to set the mark one time…

Bottom line.. the Tornado OCR is not a world class event by any standard of management. The sailors come because it is an ISAF grade one event...

Congratulations to all the sailors who do their best under tough conditions.… Boo to the crowd at US Sailing that does not resolve these problems year after year … yet tells the world… “what a great world class event we run…”

Whow Mark!



So thats why there were no protests in the Tornado class..

****.

Mark -

Thanks for bringing this to light. I'll take it upon myself to take this info along with some additional back-up, and put it in front of Bodie's face at the next USSA meeting in March. Maybe we can get it addressed. I know that the innovative Fleet 204 guys built a lumber ramp covered in indoor/outdoor carpet to create their own access during the Syracuse Alter Cup - perhaps something like that with a floating dock could be managed at the race site for the week. There's got to be a solution - all it takes is making it clear that someone gives a hoot. We rarely see a single person from the Tornado class at USSA meetings - this keeps their priorities from becoming USSA priorities. But with a little representation and advocacy, results are likely.

Did they use Mathison Hammock or Billy Boggs park on Key Biscayne to launch instead of the Miami YC? What about using Hobie Beach and a rent-a-cop? Or they could just sail out the pass and do it in the ocean. OR, just use a different location entirely, like Key Largo.

DING DING DING DING!

They are using Matheson. Which is fine... just in the wrong location. The problem is all of the other sailing circles. You can't be up in the corner by Hobie Beach.. the wind is flukey and the Yahoo factor extreme... One of the previous Medalists lost a pair of rudders and years off his life when they got run over by a local yahoo sailing there.

Mark
Let me put it simply. You are way off base on all points.
Take it form someone who has been to every Grade One regatta on the planet. This has become one of the best. Hard times come with the territory and the good sailors know it they suck it up and get down to business. If you think 13 miles to the race course in a Tornado is hard then boy do I have some stories for you.
This is Olympic sailing not patty cake weekend warrior stuff.
Bob

I'm sorry, but the only time I've ever sailed 13 miles to get to the course was for an offshore regatta on a 35' keelboat. I don't care if I'm racing for the Donald's fortunes, I wouldn't expect to have to sail 1 hour each way just to GET to the course.

I gotta say that 13 miles to get to a buoy race course would not be acceptable to me. That could take up to three or four hours out of your day depending on weather! Certainly there is a better solution.

Hey... The 470's have a great venue... While the Tornado's... do a 27 mile round trip.

Besides... Its not my judgement... fer christ sakes it is Bundock and Asby's opinion, the winners! ... (I agreee with them ... been there... done that.. its simply not world class)

Can you put up with it... Yes... (and they have been)... Is it world class.... No way!

Should they put up with it... Or should US Sailing fix the logistical problem once and for all.

These guys are just so incompetent... you also might ask the 49ner fleet how they managed the ONE Port a Potty on their parking lot/ launch area! (lets see.. approx 50 boats two Males/ boat... One Johnny on the spot.. What do you think happened?

The 49er guys have HUGE bladders. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

I have to agree with Mark here. It is an unreasonable sail to the race course. Thursday we were just dead after doing three long races and we had to sail 13 miles upwind (making it more like 20 miles) to get back. Imagine doing this every day in addition to doing three 1+ hour races.

Also the business about having the official notice board at the sailing center was ridicolous as nobody would be able to check it. We were supposed to be able to check it online, but the site crashed the first day.

If you listen to feedback from the sailors you would not hear a whole lot of positive comments. Most europeans would not come back if it was not a grade 1 event.

PU did a great job and usually seems to save our butt by making sure we don't sail outside since we have no crash boats (against 'official' wishes). Our coach boat ended up being the pin boat most of the week because the boat assigned did not know how to set an anchor.

I have to say that this event could be a great one, but certainly for the Tornados it falls short.

Hey Bob -

Do we have information on the other classes launching sites? We should be able to determine quite easily if the Tornado class is out of line with the other classes at the event. Surely just from a 'customer satisfaction' standpoint, a class that represented substantial revenue to the event should be accomodated within reason. Let's take a look at what the competitors have to say and see if it bears further scrutiny before dismissing it out of hand. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I agree with Bob, Mark - you're way off base.

Gary Bodie "highly paid"? Paid, yes, highly, no.

Here are the racing circles:


Tornados had Echo. Where else would you fit them?

I'm on the signal boat this week as the DRO with PU for the Tornado NA's - we are at least halfway down the bay just to get breathing room. Probably 6 miles from Crandon Park. We've struggled with resources again this week, but in no way has it affected the quality of the event. We invited Steadfast (the 80' motor yacht) to serve as the "pin end" of the finishing line on occasion simply because it was convenient, impressive and they get a real kick out of being involved.

Now if you don't mind, my Jedi Master is calling me to run some races . . .

Mark, it sounds like things have improved. Back in the '70's when Rick sailed at a CORK regatta at Kingston, Ontario for the Olympic classes, the Tornado class had to sail two hours to get to the course, in good wind, so Rick estimates it was close to 30 miles. Lots of clear air out there in the middle of Lake Ontario. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

While I do agree that the 13miles, access to the notice board, etc. are not desireable, Mark, you are getting pretty offensive and sliding into "not constructive".

Where else in the world are similar events held? What are their solutions? That certainly is a lot of race courses in that area but there just has to be a better way - sounds like a lot of it simply comes down to not enough resources. Did the other classes have the same kind of mark and crash boats issues?

PS...have you all paid your US Sailing dues?

13 miles to the notice board, and an hour of sailing to reach the course are both excessive in my opinion. I strongly suspect the reason for no protests in the class during the Miami event to be due to the distance. If so, it interfered directly with the racing. Not good..
In most Tornado regattas I have been to, it is from 5 minutes to 20-30 minutes max of sailing to reach the area. I have not been at the grade 1 events like Kielerwoche or Holland regatta (yet) tough, but from the information they send it dont look like it will take an hour to get to the starting line. Bundys comment implies as much also. But the Tornado always get the distant courses, due to our speed. Sucks big time when there is little wind and racing cancelled on the course. If you are lucky, you can catch a hitch with some pro teams and their coach boats back in, but can be a long paddle.
During one of the regattas in the south (Canaries?) the class refused to go out and race becouse the slower teams would not be able to return before it was dark, so Bundys comments are not whining about the distance but something the organizing committe for the Miami event should take seriously.

In the case of Miami, when it's already 13 miles to the official notice board and the 15 miles to the course, the launch/boat-parking area should be moved to somewhere closer to the racing area. It sounds like the Tornado is squeezed into an event without room for it.
1 portapotti for the 49er fleet.. Whoops!
No buoy boats or safety boats on the course.. Whoops!

All this is feedback the organizers should take very seriously if they want the event stay on the map. If they dont, even the olympians dont need to go to every event. Especially if there is just one major event on the continent. This time the Tornado worlds was in south america just before Miami. Next years the numbers in the Tornado fleet probably will drop.

Hey Matt -

Sitting at the feet of the Sensei, learning the craft of race management - good gig for the week. Thanks very much for posting the race circles. Is that a scan? I'd like to get a larger image from you or from one of the teams racing there, and mark the locations of the various launch areas. It looks like Echo is farthest from the Center, but that does not give me an idea where they're launching. If the RC says that's the place to race, then it is - what it sounds like we need to investigate is moving the launch area and requesting that the official notice board be made accessible to the fleet.

Folks, let's try to strain out the message from the static. I appreciate that personalities get involved and can make for adverse reactions, but we have input from a former competitor at the event, a current competitor, and from a member of the international fleet that has attended other Tornado events. That, along with input from the RC for the event, is the info we should focus on when determining if there is a problem, and those people will have the best perspective on how to solve it.

I'd still like to thank Mark for bringing it up, even if people think he's being shrill. I hadn't heard a word of this, yet this issue is precisely the sort of thing that should be discussed at USSA meetings among those that plan and execute future OCR events. My experience with Brenner and Bodie is that they are dedicated men willing to listen to reasoned discussion - nobody enjoys getting yelled at, especially if, from your point of view, you've been killing yourself to provide the best event you're able. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Several years ago the Miami YC was the base for the Tornadoes and it worked fairly well, although it was a task sailing down the Intracoastal Waterway to get to Biscayne Bay.
At least there was a bulletin board there. The RC would call the club from the sailing center and post whatever needed to be posted.
The protests were still heard at Coral Reef YC, however, but it was about a 15-20 minute drive.
Actually the drive from Crandon Park is also about the same.

As for the race course, the Tornadoes used to be in the upper section of the bay close to Crandon Park, Hobie Beach area and Bear Cut.
When I was the race officer, I would always leave harbor at 9AM for an 11AM start. By getting there early, I would set up my course lengths on the long side just to be sure we had enough water.
If I didn't get out early, the Laser guys would set up and push us up into the corner where we would not have enough water.
On windy days in order to have a long enough course, we had used as much as 2 miles per leg. You need a lot of water for that. Normally, the leg length is around 1.5 to 1.8 miles.
We had several squabbles with the Lasers about that. I would just tell them they had lots of room to their south and to move on down.

After I quit doing the race officer deal, another PRO made a habit of not "getting to the church on time." Consequently, they had very little room to maneuver and I heard a lot of bad vibes about boats going aground and damage.

I believe that due to the Tornado fleet in masse complaining about this, the powers to be simply moved them way down south toward the Feather Banks.

The venue on the north side worked out pretty good, albeit there was a land mass there that affected the wind. But, most of the sailors quickly figured out the winds and it was not that much of a problem.

If the fleet does not want a long sail to the venue, they should lobby to get it back to the north end and be sure the RC gets out early and stakes out its territory.

Another alternative is to get some sort of setup like they have at Crandon down a Matheson Hammock Park. The Echo Course would be right in front of them in that case.
Rick

Who was area India in the chart?I am guessing windsurfers and would the T's be better off thier at least they would be visible from the beach which is more"eye candy" for <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />cat-promo!

India is out-side (Atlantic Ocean)which means the waves our bigger. The water is not deep maybe 10'. This is not a good place to be if the winds pick-up with no chase boats. And it is about a 10-12 mile sail also.

Matt J

Attached please find chart 11465 with the viewer's Tot. 8 nm distance.
Last year, as crew I rather enjoyed the sail back, and got some helm time.
I mountain bike 10 miles, 3-4 times a week and was not tired at all at 2006 OCR, but that was last year.
Now at 55 about 2 hours of MTB with an average heart rate of 150 will tire me out,
Yeah, when I was out of shape in my 20 & 30's sailing the Tornado would wear me out, too.

Hmmm...that makes 13 miles sound a bit like an exaggeration...

13 miles is an exaggeration.

John, the chart was from the SI's for the OCR - available on-line.

It's more like 13 miles round trip.

As PU explained it, the course location was partially due to the accomodation for the disabled sailor classes being included (and them being located as close to their launch as possible). That pushed the T's even further down the bay.

BTW, Rick - we were on station an hour and a half before scheduled start today - at 9:30 AM.

Tomorrow we start at 10:00 AM. We leave the dock at 7:30.

The master had a really bad cold today and went below at the last gate rounding on the second race. Left me in charge for the finish of that race and the whole third race. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Hit it within 90 seconds of my target time. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Matt

The voice of experience here is Bundy... when he comments that the sail to and from the race course was long and exhausting, I take him at his word. I doubt he is being a pussy here and he knows what the world standard is for a properly managed event.

The distances involved are just the tip of the ice berg... Do you think the STAR Class is short a few mark boats?

Which of the two regattas OCR or the North Americans works well for the sailors?

Which is a fair test of sailing skill ... which is an endurance slog plus a regatta?

What reason (other then marketing) requires the Tornados to race that particular week when its clear that they don't have enough resources in Miami to host it properly.

About the only thing the Tornados get from participating in the OCR is an international jury for protests...

So compare the resources to some recent events.
Did St Francis YC have more or less marks boats with personel on them to support the race for your Hobie 17 NA's? How about the 16 NA's? I doubt they were hunting around for someone who could set the pin for them. If the Hobie Class can organize a competent event, why can't the paid Olympic staff get you the minimal resources to do your job and allow you to to run a competently managed regatta.
Do you think you could charter 3 or 4 boats for a week, rent a parking lot and put up a judge and PRO in a hotel room for 12,0000 dollars (40 boats x 300 each).

If playing nice with US Sailing and the Olympic committe worked... solutions would have been found... The US competitors are not exactly able to raise a public stink...

It is getting a little confusing about whether you guys are talking about the Miami Olympic Classes Regatta last week or the Tornado North Americans this week.

It is my understanding that for the OCR, the Tornado course was the southernmost course, way down by Matheson Hammock. Whereas for the Tornado North Americans, they are up by Dinner Key Marina, which is a LOT closer to Crandon Park.

Is 204 going to have to run the Olympics now?
I hope the Tornado guys like Rum.

Mark:
The Madcatter costs close to $12,ooo to run last year.
The 2004 Nationals was almost $50,000.
It ain't easy to do it right.

I agree it aint' easy ... BUT YOU MANAGE TO DO IT RIGHT!

I almost lost my life in that exact spot...
Founders park, where tradewinds was would be perfect...

Indeed !

If memory serves.. you were run over on your Hobie 20 in the waters at the top of the bay. Fortunately nobody was injured.

You were not the only sailor run over. One of the Tornado Europeans lost rudders in a hit and run in that spot as well. (and yes... I did politely write the powers that be)

So... take your chances with your life with the yahoos at the top of the bay, no water and a persistent wind shift... or sail back and forth to the bottom of the bay ...

Or... Move the event, move the launch... Solve the problem!

Move it to Naples.

Ok - here's the status;

NAs are over and I was able to talk with some sailors and people close to the event. Moving the launch area to Matheson Hammock Park, while attractive, presents other logistcal hurdles that will have to be considered. Nothing I have heard yet is insurmountable, and the primary issues are these:

1) More-experienced and additional staff/boats are needed to support the fleet. One inexperienced boat in addition to the primary boat is below standard.
2) It is essential to get the fleet easy access an official notice board. The on-line option this year failed server-side, and internet access from the launch area is problematic.
3) It is essential to get the SIs to adopt by reference the Tornado Championship Conditions. As a Grade 1 event, all Class rules should have been observed in order to be consistent with other international-level events.
4) It is essential to establish a better logistical relationship between the race area and the launch site. Matheson is an option with some planning and if the City will allow the boats to use grassy areas, but the narrow channel still is a major choke point. Other options need to be explored and planning now, less than a year from the next event, is required.

NONE of these things are impossible - IMO, they aren't even all that difficult to achieve. Let's move forward with reasoned and deliberative resolve. Any participants are welcome to send more feedback - this issue is officially on the agenda for March. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I nominate JWill for President.

Please don't stop taking issue with Mark though, its keeping him from focusing on me. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Thank you John for putting it on the agenda.

Hopefully someone will take action.

(Perhaps my delibertly loud and obnoxious rant will get some action at US Sailing Olynpic.this year ... certainly my previous three years of quiet correspondance have resulted in LESS service and competence.)

And now on to CHRIS..... How about pushing through an icebreaker replacment at the WRCRA Spring Regatta for all of the boats left behind at WRCRA! Haven't I dropped enough hints that this is a win win for all parties.
WRSA gets the cash. all of the fleets get to race. Nobody is left sitting home with out a race to play at.

Ball is in your court.

Can't one of you distract him! Please!

"Oh look, theres an Eagle."

See you tonight dude! Its a good thing that I'm almost of the generation that likes any kind of attention. Good, bad doesn't matter.

To address your ideas directly Mark, join and help make the difference that I agree with you is needed. And buy a Nacra 20 while your at it.

What a classic!

Oh look! An EAGLE!

I raced both the OCR & NA's...just got back home (Los Angeles) last night. First internet access in two weeks.

Yes, Crandon park is a long way from course Echo where the OCR races were held. The NA racing was much closer to Crandon Park...about 2-4 miles out, just off of another marina/club along key biscayne (and about two blocks from my rental house for the two weeks!).

I'm surprised to hear a guy like Bundy gets tuckered out from the daily OCR "commute"...I'm in less than top shape, but somehow managed it 5 days in a row (we were the only boat in the fleet to go out to the course (90 min.) on the Tuesday to wait for wind...never came and we just enjoyed the nice 1.5 hour sail home).

Yes, it is a long ride and something better should be provided. With the 44 boats entered this year (result of the Worlds being in Argentina last December), it was a little ridiculous not having decent facilities at Crandon Park (some teams were thinking of protesting the event, as the class rules for grade1 events require showers/changing rooms/food services nearby, boat washdown for more than just two at a time like we had at Crandon.

Not having the official notice board on site was a problem,...a few days we didn't even see the previous day's results until after returning from the race course. This could be a significant issue for teams in close battles to make sure they know who they must cover that day...And when we wanted to get the official results corrected for some scoring errors, we were told to fax or phone the PRO across the bay at the US sailing center.

Sailing to/from Echo each day was made tougher by having to avoid sailing through other courses as outlined in the SI's from the OCR...sometimes the detour would cost you a lot more time/work. On the very wild Day4, we (and many other teams) were so cold and nearing hypothermia, during the return trip we just needed to get back ASAP...and had to cut through a couple of the courses (Star & Windsurfers).

Mike.

"I'm in less than top shape, but somehow managed it 5 days in a row"

"were so cold and nearing hypothermia"

Make your mind up! If you were near hypothermia without any support boat you very nearly didn't manage did you!

Talking about two different things here...one being tired from the work out of getting to/from the course...the other being caught out by a sudden cold front without the right clothing on.