Question on the main downhaul

I believe this is the very first time I have started a thread here. I'm fairly new to Catsailor although I've been sailing for close to 22 years (cats being Trac-16, Hobie-16/18 and Prindle 18-2). I've never been a big racer and have sailed for mainly pleasure (as you can tell by the lack of Inters, Tigers, Formulas, etc. in the list above). So all you hard core racers... go easy on me. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> In fact, in recent years have been on 'hiatus' from sailing all together due to babies and faily/work issues. But I can't restrain the bug any longer and I'm stoked for the '07 season!

Anyway, back to my question: I picked up Rick's DVD and while just about everything is a refresher, the use of the downhaul to de-power in heavy wind conditions is somewhat new to me. Never been used on the older boats. I currently sail an Prindle 18-2 #590. It's stock downhaul doesn't lend itself at all to adjustments under sail. Even with a longer line, it seems to have been designed to be set on the beach and left in place while under sail.

If I spend any money at all this year on the boat, is an 8:1 or 16:1 power downhaul kit an absolute necessity for me to upgrade from stock? $200-$250 is a bit of a stretch for me (like I said, go easy on me you hard core racers!) Do you find yourself making frequent adjustments on the downhaul from the wire? I've been sailing my boat stock for the (on/off) 8 years that I've owned it. Is this a definite upgrade consideration for this year? I've never been happy with the stock downhaul to begin with. It's difficult even on the beach and don't think a crewman would have fun adjusting it while under sail.

Depends on how often you sail in heavy air. I replace parts on my boat when it gets so bad I can't stand it anymore. That's happened more since I've been racing. But that's just me and I'm cheap.

I bet about 99% of the racers on here will tell you to replace it. Those answers are coming from people with almost perfect, new model boats.

Have you sailed with any of the multihull guys from LNYC? Look them up, they're a good group and always willing to help.

Yeah, downhaul is a must to be 'fast'. To be 'fast', when there is plenty of breeze, you need to control your throttle every few seconds and the main downhaul is the fine control on the throttle. You want to avoid steering up into the wind to depower as this requires a significant movement of the rudders (drag) and dramatically decreases the efficiency of the sails when you point up too high.

Downhaul works on any boat but it really came on when our boats designers started raking the diamond wire spreaders aft giving the mast "pre-bend". With this system, when you crank the downhaul, it bends the mast significantly more - which flattens the sail by moving the mid-luff forward. However, even on non-prebent systems, stretching the sail material with downhaul also serves to move the draft further forward making the sail more efficient and a little less powerful.

So yes, I suspect you will experience quite a difference when you are trapezed. When a gust hits, quickly tighten the downhaul and you can literally feel the boat squirt forward as the sails become more efficient and turn what would normally be excess power into speed. Without tweaking the "throttle" this way, your boat just heals excessively and you have to pinch up to keep it from flipping over.

6:1 and maybe 4:1 should be plenty for a dacron sail but you probably need to start thinking about 8:1 or better for laminate sails.

I know where you are, I am mainly a recreational sailor and keep seeing all this stuff about downhaul. I have just decided that I will stick with what I have because I can adjust mine with just a pull even though it is only 3:1.

Even before I raced, I upgraded the downhaul on my Hobie-18. I usually set it for whether I was upwind or downwind, didn't play it for puffs, but if the wind came up I put more downhaul in. I pretty much used it that way even when racing.

The Hobie-20 was very sensitive to downhaul - we could be driving upwind and control the hull flying by playing the downhaul and leaving the main trim alone, very nice.

The 6.0 as that way too, although we found ourselves again playing the sheets and traveler more for some reason - probably because the luff was stretched out (old sail) and just taking the wrinkles out used up much of the range. Would still adjust the downhaul for point of sail and for changing gears when the wind went up or down.

The N-20 we seem to work the sheet and traveler more, but still pay attention to the downhaul more than setting on the beach.

My advice - whether racing or not, fix up your downhaul and learn to use it while sailing. I think you'll be happy you did.

I'll sail in almost any air (up to 20'ish). I've always adjusted traveler/mainsheet and heading in bigger air. I always sail with the jib because my boat goes like crap to weather even with it. Without it, I might as well have a gaff-rig. I would like to try my hand at racing. I've done a little as crew in the past, but never with my boat and me skippering. I know I've got some big hurdles to overcome: Gaining racing experience, finding regular/dedicated crew to practice with, finding a race with people willing to accept a newbie such as myself, and be willing to sail in an open class as surely, there are very few 18.2's out there.

I'm cheap as well. But I do want the ability to easily control the boat when I need to when either racing or pleasure sailing. And certainly when the wind picks up, youre adrenaline starts flowing, and the pucker-factor is increasing - you want to know that you have the ability to control and depower when you need to. Rick seems repeatedly adament that the downhaul is one of the most critical controls on the boat. And it's something I have not been taking advantage of. In fact, I may have been sailing INCORRECTLY for over 20 years as I've been making up for a lack of downhaul control while under sail. And no sailor wants to sail incorrectly. If $200 and some practice makes me that much better, faster and more confident in controling my boat, to me it's worth it.

I haven't sailed with any of the LNYC guys mainly because I could never afford to join the club and I haven't done Catfest. I would like to do the regatta this year though. I know they're a nice group by reputation. I just never knew how open they were to outsiders who wouldn't be paying any club dues. Almost ten years of living in Mooresville and sometimes I still feel like an outsider.

Thanks for the informative post! My hesitation to cough up the cash and try to hide it from the wifey <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> is probably due to the fact that without ever sailing with downhaul in hand and using it as a throttle control... I don't know what I'm missing.

Yes. When I begin to heal too much, I have always first leaned my fat-butt out a little farther (I probably weigh waaaay too much to race), then pinched up and finally spilled air in order to prevent a capsize. I've only capsized 2-3 times with this 18.2 mainly because I prefer to keep sailing and don't find flipping "fun" per say. If I can avoid it - I do. All of my capsizes have been because of mistakes on my part or a sheet that wouldn't uncleat.

The sail is the stock Mylar, pointed-tip sail. The spreaders are raked and I do know that by cranking down hard on the stock downhaul on the beach, I can put some pretty good bend into the aluminum mast. I keep the diamond wires pretty tight.

The stock Prindle one must be very poorly designed. Or at least, not designed to adjust while under sail. It's simple open cheek blocks on the mast and a jam cleat to hold it down. Without pressure, the downhaul can easily pop off the cheek blocks and you have to be right at the mast base to push down and cleat it in. Adjustments under sail would be a p.i.t.a.

Why do I get the feeling that I'm begining to answer my own question? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

regardless if you race or not, that system sounds like a PITA and probably should be looked at.

Not saying no, but if you are planning on racing check your class rules. Portsmouth racing, which you will most likely be doing, is based on boats sailing in their class rules. If you change things there is a ding of time. Some things you will swear are not speed related, but...

What Jake says is right, but if you dont want to go to the expense of having a system that can be controled while sailing make sure that you have one that at least works. If its windy, park the boat up stand on the tramp and whack loads of downhaul on and leave it. I seem to remember standing on the tramp and pushing the rope down with my foot whilst holding the tail was the way to go on the standard system.
You will find the 18.2 much easier to sail in a blow with lots of downhaul. Remember to let it off before you hit the beach, its a shame to see sailors wrestling a wild stallion onto its launcher when they have left the downhaul on.

More easy is to turn the boat head to wind on the beach (or on the water) and pull the mainsheet tight and only then pull on the downhaul. The mainsheet will bend the mast to a large extend making it FAR easier to pull on the downhaul and cleat it. Then release the mainsheet and the mast will stay bend (as you want) and you are ready to go of to some heavy wind sailing.

No expensive cleats needed for this. I use to preset my downhaul on my 1974 Prindle 16 that way and it used a horn cleat and only 1:4 purchase.

Wouter

Thanks! I have a copy of the class rule book and will check it.

And honestly, if you race Portsmouth and they want you take a hit for a non-class conforming downhaul, tell them to get a life!

I would expect to race Portsmouth and wouldn't care if they wanted me to take a time hit for a non-class downhaul. I wouldn't care if they wanted me to take a time hit for anything. Because I know that with my extreme sailing skills and years of experience... I would probably kick everybody's butt and be minutes ahead! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

... Now to make the boat's proper, LEGAL total crew weight, I just need to find an experienced crewman who weighs in at, hmmmmm... 50 pounds! And I'm guessing I would want to remove my beer cooler frame as well? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Don't remove it. But do add an air cannon that will fire the empties at your competitors!

No sweat! That I already have! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

And I can get one where????

Clayton

Need more information on this...how is this propelled? (hair spray?), does it do potatoes?

I still prefer the Hobie16 equipped with a AIM-9 Sidewinder.









Peace through superior firepower.

Bring that to Catfest next year. Does it have enough distance to hit Peninsula Yacht Club? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

You will not look back after making at least a 6 to 1 which is remote to each side.
This can be achieved cheaply.
Cheap small blocks and cam cleats at outside of hull will do it.
You can go to swivelling cam cleats off mast etc but 16 to 1 and internal bla bla bla is not needed. It can often just be a boys and big numbers thing.
Being able to access rotation and downhaul from side of boat while sailing is really a leap forward though so do it.

If you dont use swiveling cam cleats, how will you rig this downhaul without making mast rotation in weak winds harder?
Just curious, as I always have tought the downhaul lines lead out to the trapeze is interfering with the spi sheet.

we usually lead out downhauls to the trapeze - but under the spin sheet...it works out OK.

attach the downhaul ends to a bungee that run either in the main beam or under the tramp, that will keep it out of hte way of the spin sheets.

WWJKD?
He would run them to the trapeze, just like most of the rest of us.
Also, the cam cleat has to be mounted on the mast, otherwise it will interfere with mast rotation. I'd just get the standard mast rotation system that Hobie or Nacra uses on their newer boats. It'll make for a quick and easy installation, and be pretty much ready to use.

But, if you wanna go the super cool route:
Get some 13.20 oz carbon line, 3.45 mm of course, and do a quadra-cascade system with Harken carbo blocks (be sure to use the platinum edition though, the bearings are much better!). Instead of tying bowlines to your blocks in the quadra-cascade, have the line super spliced, and then have heat-shrink kevlar tape put over the splice area. This should create for you the best downhaul possible on your boat. It'll run smoother, work better, and be easy to use and install.

Jake and Bill,

we run the downhaul lines from the swivelling cleats out to the shroud today. From there they pass trough a block before a bungee suck them under the tramp. Spi sheet goes over the downhaul lines. However, uncleating the downhaul when trapeezing low can be an issue when the spi sheet lies on top. The downhaul lines running out to the shrouds is also one thing extra for the crew to watch out for when tacking or jibing in weak winds. So if there was an elegant way to run the lines from the mast base under the tramp and out to the shrouds it would be worthwhile to have a look at. Hence the question.. I think I have seen a Tornado rigged this way, but I can't remember how it was done.

Thanks. I've decided to go ahead and upgrade. I'll go with a standard system with dual lines for each side of the boat rather than trying to design and construct something myself. In the end, I doubt I would save that much money and have it be as effective.

It won't have to have the highest purchase in the world and I don't have to worry about spin lines since my boat is equipped with a chute or Hooter. I only have barberhaulers, but I can easily work around them. They're not used much anyway except for downwind sailing.

This is a sweet exit cam

ronstan RF5

The Harken is fine until the S/S plate gets bent up. It's a PITA to straighten.

The problem I had with the Ronstans is that under load the plastic housing can bend and the bearings "jump" out.

I also had the plastic base break on me. Like I said, Harken is working on a replacement for this specific block. I still have it (the Ronstan) on my boat until the new Harken alternative is out.

Guys/Gals:

Most of us have one of these 8 to 1 systems:

http://www.murrays.com/archive/26.pdf

I am going on 6 years and no problem. I have enough line to run to the traps. REAL easy to adjust when needed.

Doug

double blocks or quad?

Derek:

I have a slightly different setup that was made by dealer, BUT I would go with quad. Looks much easier to remove and lines should move easier. If you want to be class legal usee the 6 to 1, BUT run lines to the traps so you can adjust from the wire.

Just my opinion,
Doug

If you're going to lay out some money, look at item C on this page from the Murray catalogue. You save some money getting it all in one and it's easy to mount. Cheek blocks and a pair of doubles will give you 8:1 or a double above with a single cascade to double that would yield 8 as well.

Shop around for best price or buy it from Rick and support our forum GrandMaster.

http://www.murrays.com/archive/26.pdf

Derek/David:

Yea get it form Rick.. I will start using in his catalog reference.. Just had Murrys loaded. Sorry Rick. Still cheaper to just get 01-4522.

Doug

If you go with the double blocks, you can then later add a pair of singles by the grommet and cascade to 16 to 1. You just need a second line (on each side) tied off to the double, up through the single, and cleated off to the clam cleat on each side of the mast. A possible problem with the quad would be if there weren't enough room above the boom for it, in other words, it would run into the boom when really cranking on the downhaul. Doubles will bypass the boom, and avoid the potential problem.

Peter Shapiro
P19MX

I've given Murray's plenty of business over the years. I figure that it's time to start throwing it Rick's way. After all, it was HIS advice from his DVD that got me started down this road. Thanks Rick! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

And there's another added expense not talked about here. On top of the cost of the downhaul kit, there's the actual lines to consider. I'm guessing two sets of good lines at those lengths will cost a pretty penny as well.

They're not going to be that bad. Go with the standard Excel if you're not real serious about it. Go Excel Racing if you want to get crazy.

P182:

You will need one piece of line. Enough to run from one trap through the cleats and blocks and out to other trap. A little extra for slack. I just release both the cleats and line up the ends a back on boat then cleat and tie to traps.

Doug