A-Cat Wannabe - Advice??

Ok....I am "considering" an A-cat as my second cat and have been reading everything I can find, and have concluded that there are a "lot" of choices. So thought I would start a thread to help me sort through some of the decisions that have to be made. Hopefully the thread can serve similar assistance to others as well. First a few facts about myself:

weight: 195-200 lbs.
height: 6'2"
skill level: mid fleet, but improving.
Why A-cat?: large competitive fleet, lightweight singlehanded boat, and I understand that tweaking control lines on an A provides very good feedback...so the hope is that feedback will help me improve my overall skill level.

One last note: In addition to sailing this boat in A-class events, I will also occasionally sail it in open class club racing in light winds. Therefor, I would like to consier putting a chute on it just for those circumstances.

I have figured out that I need a stiff platform (would prefer newer wave piercing design), and due to my weight (and the spinaker potential), will need a stiffer mast. Also I understand the bighead mains are most desirable today.

I don't need brand new, but I do want a competitive boat, so as to not be able to blame my lackluster results on anything but myself...and hoepfully I will improve more with a good boat. Since I am not expecting initially to be in the top half of the A-class fleet, I can't justify spending $20k especially since this will be my "second" boat. (N20 will remain my primary). Sooo...I want to try to keep this down below $10k....not sure that's do-able, especially when I add the spin rig, but that is the goal.

Now...I am looking for advice on platform, rig, sail selection, and anything anyone else (especially current A-class experts) wants to throw my way.

Regards all,

You can easily beat the $10k number, if you go to an F16.

<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> We'll somebody was gonna say it anyway!!

At your weight I think you will just be a bit too lardie to be really competative on a A, now a F16 single handed at your weight, just about spot on, put the chute up and say goodbye to the A's + you goner have loads of change to go sailing <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />.

Joe,
You'll probably want two masts, one for spin, one for main only.

Find a broken carbon mast, fix it and stiffen it up for the spin.

check out www.usaca.info for used boats for sale.

Bill

As to chute rigged A, send an email through the usaca website about that issue www.usaca.info . Ask for Dave Carlson to respond about that and he will talk you through his changes for using a chute. Additionally, there are some platforms that are better than others for heavier sailors. Others in the class can steer you in the right direction. Personally, I am staying with A's instead of switching to F-16's. I like the development and size more in the A Class.

Joel:

I am going to take Bill's advice and have Lars Guck build me a DK-17 when I have ready. I am at 200-220 and he said that it would be a good fit. Check the forum. Haken (sp) put a spin on jis Marstrom:

Here is what Bill said about DK-17

As far as the DK, I own one. Which I built myself. I spent 11k on it.

The DK is designed for a larger guy. Steve Clark is 220-230, George Sanders is 240 or more, the designer, Dirk Kramer is also over 200. I weigh 200 -210.

So the boat has more volume for a larger guy in the stern, which is important going downwind. Steve Clark is very competitive, but he's a great sailor.

The bad news with the DK is that its a custom build, either you do it or you pay someone to build it for you. Paying someone wont be cheap, but you'll get a boat built to your specs, your construction methods (foam, nomex, etc) your rigging preferences, your prefered apendages like rudders, and mast and sail, and such. it will be a great learning experience for you to understand the implications of all these decisions. Plus Hall will custom make your mast for your weight. Peter Cogan will custom make the sail to the mast and your weight. You'll probably end up pay less than the A2/A3 and you'll have a much better product - all custom made for you and your weight.

Now, if you dont have the skills to finish a boat, you'll need someone to do most of the work for you. Lots of guys in RI will do the work. Steve might do it, or you could go to any number of people that specialize in this kind of work. Henry Elliott made the molds and would make you a finished boat. Lars Guck could do the whole project and he doesn great work. You could get the mast from Hall, they are in RI, the tramp comes from Kinder, they are in RI and I know a great sail maker in CT. You could get everything you need with one trip to New England this spring.

http://www.guckinc.com/

http://www.kinder-industries.com/racing_one_design_a_class.asp

http://www.hallspars.com/

Bill:

Sent you a eamil about pics of your boat. Can you send some?

Doug

Good stuff...Thansk for the immediate responses guys!! I had already checked out the USACA site (and recheck it regularly), and I am watching the classifieds there. In fact I have already conversed with a couple of the folks there about boats for sale, and that merely extended my list of questions I need to answer before buying or commiting!! Anyway...I like the idea of custom building a boat to fit me, and I have no problems doing finnish work, rigging, etc. I just don;t think I am in a position to build my own hulls at this point. The DK sounds like a reasonable option, especially if I can get someone good to provide the hulls. I'll check out the web sites and send a few emails.

Wouter, where are you?

Hey guys....where can I find more information, picutes, specs, etc. on the DK-17??

After many years of F16 class work I have recently transferred the very last of my duties to other class members. So now I'm doing alot of well deserved landyachting and sailing for solely my personal pleasure. In all the other hours I'm doing numerical analysis and multivariable controller design, a guy has got to give an impetus to his carreer at some time. It seems that after the many years I invested in F16, my carreer is now the one deserving of the bulk of my attention now.

I'll hang around, but I'll be much less active then over the past 10 years.

Wouter

http://www.intcanoe.us/component/option,com_zoom/Itemid,26/catid,13/PageNo,1/
http://home.mindspring.com/~fordc/index.html
http://www.alinghi.com/en/alinghi/team/index.php?idIndex=3&idContent=2248
http://www.sdkstructures.com/

Steve Clark owns the DK design and molds.

If you are serious about building one or having one built for you the first step is to talk to Steve. Send me a PM and I'll send you Steve's email address.

Pics on my DK17 build are on this forum. Search on DK17.

Bill

http://www.catsailor.com/forums/sho...;amp;page=0&fpart=1&vc=1

Pics are here.

Joe,

About the only thing that will match your criteria (under 10K, wave p.)is either a Boyer Mark V (coppy of Flyer underwater) or a Bim Jav I, and then play with the spin.

Ken

Joe,

I think any good Boyer Mk. IV/V will meet your needs and budget best. A Marstrom would be even better for your weight but you may find it hard to find one in your price range.

Regarding putting a chute on the boat, well go ahead but I think you will enjoy the boat more without it unless you have a dedicated rig for it (I would not modify my only mast) and you can store the boat mast up. A good sailor who owns an I-17R has been in touch with me about getting an A-boat. While he knows the I-17R can go downwind faster, he is simply tired of the weight and complexity and wants the A-boat mainly because it will take minimal time to rig and launch.

Good luck,

Bob Hodges
A2 USA 230

Are a Boyer and Auscat the same thing?? I am seeing references to Mark V boats with either name in front??

Regarding the chute....I understand the concerns, however our local club frequently races in 4 to 6 knots (or less!!) during the summer months, and I just loathe the idea of baking and bobbing without at least a chute to move a little quicker!!

Speed is relative...I don't think you would notice as long as you were racing similar boats. Hell, I enjoy the hell out of racing Waves in a fleet in any condition.

Hi All

Yep Boyer and Auscat are the same thing, they don't seem to use Auscat in the title anymore in general discussion, when someone says its a Mark I, II, III, IV or V, most people assume you know its a Boyer.

Regards

Next Boyer question...at what point did AHPC / Boyer change from the Mark V to the Flyer? In other words if someone says they have a 2005 Boyer, would it be a Mark V or a Flyer? Or...did they overlap and make both for a period of time?

The Mk. V and the Flyer are identical below the waterline. The differences are as follows:

1. Construction - Mk. V hulls were kevlar, Flyer carbon. Mk. V had 5-6 bulkheads, Flyer had 2.
2. Foils and beams - The front beam and daggerboard placements are slightly different
3. Bow - The Flyer has a more aft raked bow while the Mk. V looks more plumb.

I owned and raced a Mk. V for three years and had great results with it. I did a lot of 2 boat tuning with Charlie Ogeltree who had the Auscat Flyer and we convinced ourselves that the boats were identical performance wise.

The Mk. V was Boyer's version of the Flyer even though he built the exact copy. It is no longer built and I believe they are tooling up to produce a completely new A-cat in the near future.

Mk. V's are good boats to get if you find one. Some argue that the kevlar hulls are more durable and survive collisions better. We saw no real differences in platform stiffness because both boats used carbon beams.

Hope this helps.

Bob Hodges

Thanks Bob!! Very good info...I was about to ask about the difference between kevlar and CF construction. If Kevlar was considered slightly more durable...why the switch to Carbon? Is there a significant weight difference? I find it interesting that they reduced the number of bulkheads...again, ??weight savings??

hi jl,

Dont be afraid to add a spin to your A. disagree with those saying you have to stiffen the mast. 2x A worldchampion Bunkenburg (~85 kg) as well as myself were using F18 kites in up to 20 knots of wind. He used a saarberg mast while I used marstroem masts without problem. don't advice 21 m² so... in this case less is more! as soon you want to sail competitive against other boats and the course is not a triangle ur up+down, its more important to be able to run the same angles as the others. I was constantly running about 10° lower than F18 and co. The result was that in a lot of long distance races I couldn't use my kite while others could. Two main problems have to be solved: you need a kind of crossbar to prevent that the siteforces generated by the spi pulls the hulls together. A's are sensitive to windage, so snuffer, lines, bars will cost you deeply upwind speed and angle if not designed with care. Best concept how to support your spipole is shown with the marstroem M20 and M18 (widened A-cat with spi) using carbon tubes (masts for rc modelboats) to support the pole while dealing with compression forces same time. I would recommend an F16 spi for the A: the luff lenght is quite short (so you don't have to mount the spi halyard block to high) and the shapes are pretty flat nowadays. ask AHPC for a 2nd hand spis. you could even consider the AHPC (former Boyer/Fibrecraft) alu-tube snuffer, although it will be not the most less windage one, but its quite cheap and works well.

a marstroem A would suit your weight fine and construction quality is probably the best available. 2nd choice would be mk5 or AHPC flyer.

good luck!

I got to agree with Bob. I thought I'd get bored without a spin when we got our Marstrom A, but they go down wind well, and when you are racing in class who cares. Plus when the wind builds up you can do the wild thing - which is just about as fun as having a kite.

Chris.

Joe,
Boyer had his construction technique, mainly the hulls get their strength from the bulkheads, thinner foam. These were the Boyer Mark....up to V. You could get Kevlar outer skin with either 1) glass inner skin, 2) carbon inner skin, or 3) Kevlar inner skin. The choice was up to you, and you could also get Al or carbon beams. Also, boards and rudders could be either carbon or glass. You could therefore get a boat with quite a range of $, depending how you ordered it.
Flyers were not built in enough numbers to satisfy Aus, or US, so AHPC (Boyer) contracted to build the boat for those markets. The build was stipulated by the designer to be thicker foam so the boat gets its strength from the skins and not the bulkheads. There were no options on the construction...carbon, foam, then Kevlar outer. Also, no option for Al beams, carbon only, as well as only carbon foils. He designed (copy) the Mark V to be as close as possible to the Flyer underwater (if you can not beat them, join them). Above the water the boats look different.
Because the Flyer was so popular, Boyer stopped making the Mark V (he did not get any orders for 1-2 years). Last we talked he was working on a new design, but AHPC has gone through some changes recently.
Hope this helps,
Ken

Wow!! Lot's of good info....thanks all...

Dirk (or anyone else who knows...) regarding the spin setup. I assume one possible spinaker solution would be to order the Marstrom M18 spin setup, and shorten the front braces for the narrower platform?? Thoughts?? I'm not sure I like the snail, but it would have a lower windage factor than a tube snuffer...I guess I was thinking of doing something similar to the Marstrom setup, except to use a snuffer bag and mid-pole hoop on the pole. Sounds like an F-16 spin would fit the bill nicely?

Hey Joe. For my two cents the Marstom would be the package for you. It'll carry your weight and you can order the factory spin package. It is a tough, strong and fast boat, known for it's build quality. If you can get in touch with Dave C ask him how Brett M. is doing with his Marstrom with spin. The only thing you won't have is wave piercing bows. The only way around that is the DK-17 but then you have plenty to work out to do the spin right I would think. I too lust for a spin but will not go there with my Flyer. Ed

The problem with a Marstrom is that they are quite scarce in the US and I doubt one in decent condition could be had in the price range I am restriced to.

I'm sure the F16 spin would work fine on an A, although you may want a longer pole than the F16s use. Of course, an F16 itself would fit all your criteria as well, except class size smaller than As. Even so, F16 will easily carry the weight; typically stiffer masts; less expensive. Send me PM if you want more info.

Hi All

The new A they were working on is called 'The Tool' designed by Wayne Mercer, a long time Australian A Class sailor.

Jim Boyer and Pieter Saarburg? checked out Waynes prototype at the 2005 Nationals and both wanted to help build and market the boat.

Check out www.thetool.com.au or www.boyer.com.au and click on the tool link, the rest of Jims site is under construction and 'the tool' link is the only one that works, no photos on Jims site from memory.

Regards

I hate to write this down Bob, but the story was that :

-1- It was said the MK5 wasn't as good as expected and Boyer decided to build the orginial flyer to replace the MK5. The MK5 was only build for a short time frame.

-2- Boyer doesn't build any A-cats anymore and he nor AHPC are tooling up to make a new A-cat. As a matter of fact Boyer doesn't build ANY catamarans anymore as he sold all his tooling and terminated his boat building business altogether.

-3- For a while, till Boyer ended his boat building business they had build the Tool A-cat which is not a Boyer design, he only builded it. Since then the mould have returned to Wayne and Geltek (Ashby and the former foreman of Boyer) is building the new Flyer A-cat.

-4- AHPC (which is not Boyer fibrecraft anymore) is however tooling up for a F16 which will be launched this summer, maybe you confused the two boat types.


Wouter

Kevlar ; More impact resistant then carbon and also lighter then carbon.

Kevlar is more and more replacing carbon in hull construction. Some designs simply skipped the carbon phase in their hulls and went from glass to kevlar straight away. The downside of kevlar is that it is a hard material to work with. Try cutting it for example.

Wouter

Carbon and Kevlar are very different. They each have their strengths.

Kevlar

Lightest
Great impact resistance
Excellent strength is tension
Poor strength in compression
Absolutely sucks for finishing. It does not sand clean, it's fuzzy like an old sweater
Best in cored construction.

Carbon

Excellent strength
Easy to finish
Problems with sharp impacts and crack propogation
Stiffer
Current studies say it will last longer before it starts flexing, if it's prepreg. Hand laminates are about the same. Infusion should be almost as good as prepreg, I have some doubts.
Best as solid carbon, because the preregs are so good.

My personal favorite is 60-80% carbon with 40-20% kevlar near the middle. Once the limits are exceeded, it bends before it breaks and holds togather after it cracks.

I would suggest you try an A without a spinnaker first. They are fast in light air.

wouter, why do you assume kevlar to be lighter than carbon?

besides, it does not offer significant improvement over glass (besides side impact), far less strong than carbon, fibres don't 'soak' epoxy (try sanding it...), no prepreg available etc...

haven't seen any turn to kevlar in (A-cat) mast design either... what would be reasonable if it would offer any advantages...

The Flyer '2' is build in carbon in Germany (maybe they again use the strange ~75% carbon/~25%kevlar mix (only useful after collision as the kevlar keeps the broken carbon in place) while the Geltek Flyer '2' is build in kevlar. I assume there are two major reason for the later being a kevlar boat again: 1. costs 2. more sideimpact resistant.

Jl, try contacting Hakan

hakan.frojdh@bostream.nu

He sailed the M18 with spi to a 2nd or 3rd round texel a while ago. more remarkable he published a video showing speed differences on an A with and without spi (gps reading). he probably can answer you how to build the marstroem system. stay away from the spi-drum. upwind it might be better but malfunctions , spi life and limited angle for rise and lowering of the spi are not worth the better windage.

those who say you don't miss a spi on the A for open class sailing or long distance races just never tried it. you are so much faster. you can beat the M20 with an A+spi on line honours. you laugh about F18. In less than 10 knots Tornados become swimming obstacles. Raised some rating discussions once when beating the new crowned F20 European champions by half a lap in a three lap race in 10-15 knots of wind. Without spi they would eat you before the first downwind mark. The advantage of the spi decreases with stronger wind on triangle courses as hoisting and pulling in take (relative) more time.

If someone dont share my view, please don't feel offended, its personal view based on personal experience.

...that is, until you realize that you're the only A-Cat with a spin on the course.

Maugan, of course you will be lonely in front and better know the course. And the A's without spi are no company either as they are miles behind! ;-)

We talk about handicap racing, not class racing. In class racing all A are same slow downwind, same fair fate, no need for spi...

Thanks Dirk. And yes, you are correct. I am ONLY talking about using a spin in OPEN class racing...and then likely only in light winds (under 10 knots). There are NO Acats currently at our lake and I would be racing against other spinaker boats regardless of whether I had a spin or not purely based on standard Portsmouth numbers (and yes...I do realize my number would be modified with the spinaker!).

I have seen the video (didn't know who it was)and it is quite impressive!! Also your comments regarding the snail are consistent with what I have heard and are why I will likely stick with a more traditional pole snuffer even though there may be a slight upwind windage penalty.

Also, thanks to the folks commenting (educating me) onthe diff between Kevlar & Carbon construction.

If you contact Hakan (who also frequent this forum from time to time), why not ask his opinion on the Marstrøm "snail" snuffer? He should know.

The A-cats are not easy to keep up with to windward in less than 10 knots. Agree fully with Dirks assesment.

Dirk,

Please read my post a couple of times before replying. Most of the answers you seek were already given in the original posting.



I didn't assume that, I was told it is like that by a well known catamaran builder.



Strength is not a consideration in the hulls when viewed in the traditional sense, resistance to crack propagation and impact resistance is. This because both mechanism really limit the strength that usage of a material delivers in real life application with respect to laboratory measured material properties. Resistance to buckling (compression loads) is the 3rd such mechanism but I have not seen any reports that kevlar hulls are significantly inferiour to the other materials in this respect. Probably because adding bulkheads to the hull keeps the skin in column and thus negates any inferiour properties. In laymans terms; an easy fix is available to solve that particular issue.




I wasn't talking about masts but about hulls and said so clearly in my posting.

An added advantage of kevlar is that it is available at reasonable prices. This is very much NOT the case for carbon these days.





Try availability and the fact that most of the superior properties of carbon fibres are not really needed in hull construction, this in contrast to masts.

I'm noticing that more and more boats are using kevlar hull construction like some Volvo ocean boats and an increasing number of beach catamarans.

I can name at least 2 modern A-cats that have full kevlar hull construction at this time. And also several other catamaran types that either offer full kevlar hull construction or partially kevlar construction (with glass making up the remainder). Carbon fibre usage here seems to be on the retreat.

As such I recognise a shift away from carbon with respect to hull production.

Wouter

I can whole underscore this statement by Dirk. While I have never sailed an A-cat with a spinnaker before I can testify that an A without a spinnaker will be caught before he reaches the downwind mark. In most irrespectibally how far the A was in front at the A-mark.

Wouter

Joe,




Take one thing in serious consideration. None of the (spinnakerless) A's will hold their rating in an open class windward-leeward racing fleet with predominantly capable crews on spinnaker boats.

Many will now interupt with cries of Ashby, Lars Guck and Ogletree providing proof to the contrary but YOU won't be able to reproduce these results. Simply because it is not the boat that propels these people to such results but their exceptional sailing skills.

Now the A-cat is indeed widely accepted as pure sailing joy and the A-cat racing fleet (if present) is a well respected entity. But if you don't have such a fleet nearby then you really must value the joy of sailing an A in sufficiently large quantities to justify getting one. Because in your situation there simply won't be another reason that favours the A over the spinnaker (formula) boats.

Add to this that over the last decade the spinnaker boats, mostly the formula ones, have noticeably improved their setups and feel, thus making the lead the A's used to have in this area smaller and smaller. This trend has not ended yet in my personal opinion.





Forget this limitation. Once you start sailing with a spinnaker you'll be quickly learning to use it in 10 to 20 knots as well. At least that is what I did and many other I know. At first it will seem daunting but you'll quickly learn that it'll actually make the boat better behaved and faster around the course in any condition.

The only exception to this rule is the really light winds were you can't fill the spinnaker properly. Here having the spi on board is a disadvantage as you can't use it. In any other wind you'll be faster with it deployed on the downwind legs. Trust me, I tried it all over the last 5 years. And I'm talking about singlehanding here (solo sailing) as you would with the A+spi.

Wouter

Wouter....thanks for your input. To clarify though, first of all I currently race a N20, and occasionally race F18 as well, so I am well aware of the added dimension the spinaker brings to the picture. In fact, that has been one of the reasons I have up to now steered away from A-class. However, as I stated when I started this thread, I frequently tire of finding good crew, and therefor am considering a singlehander as my "second" cat. I have honed in on the A specifically due to the growing and very competitive nature of the A-class fleet, which is to say that I would likely travel to a handful of A-class events every year. Secondly I am attracted to the A-cat due to the platform's extreme level of feedback in the hopes that it would help to make me a better sailor over time with practice.

Thanks again for your input.

Hey move to South FL, crew issues resolved <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Maybe you can take my F16 out for a spin. Take it uni-rigged and hoist the spinnaker and have fun. I am sure its the closest you will get to an A cat with spin. Not quite an A cat but close enough.

C U in April Buddy. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Hey Robi...Just curious buddy....would I have to take a mandatory course in shameless self promotion (of the F16 class) before I would be allowed to purchase an F16?? Or do they serve ém up with a large glass of kool-aid!?!? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Just yankin' yer chain man!!

I preffered sweetend lemon ice tea. Dunno what you prefer, but im sure anything is doable. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Since when has Robi been a pooh-bah damnit?

Hi All

Just in case thats a dig at me, I did say they 'were' working on 'the tool'

Jim will still do boat repairs by arrangement.

Regards