Throw out Throw Outs?

Me again, I still do not understand throw outs, the F18 worlds, Boat 1 with 27 points and boat 2 with 28 points going into the last race. I think the sport would be so much better if there were no throw outs. Granted, it is very clever to sail your oponnent off the course but I think the sport of sailing would be better off if the last race came down to who sailed the last race better rather then who can sit on a competitor and then not even finish the race. No ill will to the sailors, rules are rules, if your within the rules then go for it and win the regatta the way they did. I just hate throw outs. The only other sport I can think of that has throw outs would be and correct me if I am wrong, Gymnastics? Anyone else feel this way? I have experienced a few times where a good friend took away a podium spot from me because of the throw outs, overall I have a better score but take the throw into the equation and he gets the spot. This post is just to get some opinions, not really a big deal at all but I was curious, anyone else on my side of the debate in wishing for a Marstrom M20 to show up at the door tomorrow from UPS and also getting rid of the throw out rule?

I'm with you on the M20 showing up on my doorstep, but I'm on the fence regarding throwouts. I believe throwouts are neccessary to compensate for catastrophic equipment failures, and other items beyond the cotrol of competitors. I also note that for example in this particular case Mitch and Pim seem to be ok with the way things worked out. I also would have to argue that Mitch HAD to have a pretty good idea that this would be Bundy's strategy (if you look at the numbers I "believe" this was the ONLY way Bundy could pull off the win). That being the case, I'm sure Mitch "tried" to prevent getting below Bundy on the start, but lost the battle....and the regatta was so close that it came down to that failure.

I will say that at least at first I struggled as you are (even started to start a similar post but decided against it).

I look forward to the day that I am competitive enough that stuff like this "will" impact me!!

Like Bundy and Mitch themselves understood and both said, the last race was almost certain to come down to a "match race" between the two of them, and that’s exactly how it turned out. They were both prepared for it and the better sailer on the day won. If Mitch had (and he would sure as hell been trying) gotten the upper hand at the start then the results could have very easily gone the other way.
It's exactly the same for all the finals races of the Americas cup, except there are only the two boats out there on the water. As far as both Mitch and Bundy were concerned there was only the two of them out there on that last race as well. You could think of it also like a game of soccer where the two teams are tied nil all at the final siren, they then decide the results on penalty shots for goal. Some say that is unfair but most see the logic as “good for the game”

well said Darryl..........

Agree 100%, It is all part of the game. I'd bet a fair number of championships are decided this way.

Why do people not love the challenge any more? I do not mean to be rude and I am sure he is just lost in the present culture but it is as irrelivant a way to win as standing on a competitors golf ball.

Craig Hackett, is that you? Are you still in Newmarkett? Drop me a private message, got some catching up to do!

There are a ton of variables and a lot of things that can affect you beyond your control on a race course. Most often, when you are fouled by a competitor, even if the competitor does his turns, you still are affected. I could go on and on, but my point is that the throwout helps overcome these kind of influences and level the field a little.

Hi Darryl -

I agree to a point - Mitch was beating Darren boat for boat as the conditions moderated, and he and Pim really had momentum on their side. It appears from the reports and mark-roundings that Mitch was just sailing better. In the end, it was the use of the throwout that determined the outcome - instead of going faster than Mitch, Darren's goal was to give him a throwout bigger than his five. Throwouts were conceived to address unforseen breakdowns and the like. It appears Darren considered the tactic a method of last resort... or he would have done it first race of the day, instead of simply trying to be faster than Mitch.

Yes - within the rules. Yes - good tactics. Yes - Mitch was faster on the day.

Still - a seriously exciting end to what appears to have been a wildly successful event. Medwell, Laruffa, et. al. - well done!

John, weren't there some changes to the new Olympic sailing rules, where only the top 10 boats will sail in the finals and there will be no throwouts? I realize this is not the Olympics, but for future reference, I'd like to know. Thanks.

Yeah, in an effort to increase the marketability, the majority of the event is considered like a 'regular season' that leads up to the playoffs. The last day of racing (or two?) is for the top contenders and they get no throwouts. So far, the system doesn't seem to be very popular among the competitors.

From Sailing.org:

"1. Regatta Format

An 11 race series (a 16 race series for the 49er). A Medal Race will be scheduled on the day designated for each class’s medal ceremony, even if the full schedule has not been completed by that day.
The top 10 placed boats advance to the Medal Race. All boats advancing will be required to compete in the Medal Race.
On the water umpiring will be used in the Medal Race.
This format will apply to all test events and the 2008 Olympic Regatta (for all classes).
2. Scoring System

There will be one discard for the series score but the Medal Race shall not be discarded.
Competitors will carry their series scores (ie total of race scores after discard) through to the Medal Race.
Race scores for the Medal Race will be doubled (ie 2 points for first, 4 points for second, and so on) and added to the series score.
Any series tie after the Medal Race will be broken in favour of the boat finishing higher in the Medal Race.
If the Medal Race is not completed, medals will be awarded based on the series score for all the prior races (in the normal way)."

To me, that sounds even more complicated than the existing system!

ISAF really need to ask themselves whether sailing is for the sailors or the spectators.

I don't think changing the scoring system is going to draw more spectators, particularly if it is becoming more complex! The only way to make watching sailing more enjoyable is to change the racing format. Shorter races (5-15 mins, four or so back to back), more requirements for close quarters manoeuvring to keep dull periods of racing to a minimum.

I understand the argument of boat breakages but there are other ways to get around it, or you can just deal with it (look at what happens when a rowing shell breaks down during a race...nothing, you just lose). If the crews are supplied boats, having spares is not a problem.

If a tonne of short back-to-back races are conducted, don't have any drops(throw-outs), if they think that drops are confusing.

An alternative proposition for an Olympic regatta with say 30 boats...
- Divide into 6 fleets of 5 boats.
- Have rolling starts for 5-15 min races. (About 4-5 races per fleet per day, have a number of courses to suit)
- 1-2 umpires per start. (generally speaking, 1 umpire would be able to deal with a fleet of 5 boats after they clear the start line)
- Race like that for a day with boats collecting points (drops or not can be determined after a couple of events like this are held)
- After a days racing, the top three boats from each fleet go to the next days racing.
- Divide into 3 fleets of 6 boats.
- Rolling starts again.
- Top 2 boats from each fleet to go through to next days races again.
- Race off for the places (points starting from 0 each day)
- On-water interviews between races.
- Smaller courses means they can be closer to shore.
- Windward leewards for skiff/apparent wind boats, triangles for slower boats.
- Have plenty of on-water spectating options...how about a floating spectator stand on a barge!


This is similar to current Olympic events like athletics and rowing, except that athletes in these events only get one chance to go through to the next round, gear failure or not.

Instead of having spectators care about the points, just give them a relegation style event.

From a spectators point of view, this might be more interesting. From a sailors point of view the current system with everyone racing together for 10 or so races is better (in my opinion).

...end of rant...

Probably should note that this would be best for dinghies, rather than cats or keel boats. Will have to think about them a bit more.

I know it will work with dinghies because it is a similar arrangement to how we ran teams racing around here. Logistically it is feasible and it is quite exciting to watch and participate in.

But on the other hand, in the absence of breakdowns
and fouls, a throwout allows a boat that has not
sailed as well in a series as another boat
to win.

That depends on what your definition of "sailing better" is...

In the current system, after all drops are accounted for, the person with the lesser points IS better...it's been acknowledged as such in thousands of regattas all over the world since the implementation of the current system many many years ago...

This is the problem (perhaps perceived problem) with the new system trying to be implemented for the Olympics, the better sailor doesn't necessarily win if they have a gear failure, bad race, damaged in a collision or similar in the "finals", because it has to be counted...plus you get lumbered with extra points...or have I got it all wrong?

I'm not saying it won't find the best sailor, but I'm sure events will be won by the under-dog many times. Does anyone remember the short-course speed-skating at the winter Olympics when the Aussie guy (who was running last) won the finals because the other three fell over on the last corner...I predict that sort of thing will be prevalent with the new race scoring system.

Does anybody know the history of how and when and why "they" (ISAF?) came up with the idea of allowing throwouts?

Seems to me the person that sails the most consistantly should win. If Joe's worst finish is a 5th, and John's is a 25th (which he throws out), why shouldn't Joe win?
John had a bad race and still was rewarded with a victory (no breakdowns, no one interfered.., just a bad race and it happens to everyone once in a while).
I know I took second in two major nationals on that exact basis -- my worst finishes were around 5, while the winner was throwing out numbers in the upper teens.
Sort of a socialistic or communistic rule. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Rick

I think that "Discards" (as we call them <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />) were around long before ISAF, (as we know them).

Well, all I know is that I had never heard of throwouts in the 1940's, and 1950's and early 1960's. Rick thinks maybe throwouts started being used in the late 1960's.

Did they start being used at the grass roots level, to keep people from being demoralized when they had a bad race or a breakdown? And did the concept work its way up to the top level (Olympics)?

OR did it start at the top and work its way down?

WHEN AND WHY AND HOW did the idea start? There must be a historian somewhere who keeps track of these things. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

With or without discards, it can be dodgy. At our nationals last Sept., excluding discards, the first 2 boats were on equal points. I had: 2, 6, 1, 1, 2. AJ had: 1, 3, 4, 3, 1.
If there were no discards, I won because I had 2nds where she had 3rds. With discards, I won by 2 points.
The races are in order, so if you look at them you will see that she beat me in 3 of the 5 races. But as Rick said consistancy counts.
On top of that, we were racing on handicap with F18s, Hurricanes & Darts, so when the Spitfire results were taken on their own, we both had 1sts and 2nds, so she beat me in the Spitfire class, even though I won the event overall.
All goes to show that it's a lottery anyway <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

For the past two years I've been trying to reduce the number of discards, throw outs for the F16 Nations Cup to no avail. People are so set in their ways I'm suprised how we actually managed to stop swimming around in the sea!!

Tie breakers is a whole 'nother can of worms. Since I am an ex-motocrosser, I like the tie to be broke by the last race. That is a designated way to break ties and SailWave supports it as well. And it is much more simple to keep track of.
And for adding electricity to the sport, it really puts the test to the sailors in the last race of a series. Do well and win.., do poorly and lose. And you know it after the race is over -- you don't have to wait until you are ashore and some machine figures it out.
Rick

As far as I know, with ISAF, if all points are still equal at the end, then last race result comes in.

I tried to do a little bit of research this morning and the first things I found were class histories (star, etc.) that started to adopt throw-outs in their championships in the late 60's through the late 70's. I didn't have enough time to keep looking but will do so - it's an interesting quandary.

I think we all know of the many arguments FOR throw outs, just as I think we all know of the many arguments AGAINST throw outs. It reminds me a little of the criteria for the “horse” IE, GOD created a horse and having the desire for a second opinion he formed a committee and asked them to design a horse to the same criteria, - the committee came up with a Camel
I don’t think it is important whether there are throw outs or no throw outs, what is important is that everyone who races in an event KNOWS beforehand just what the rules and conditions are, then it is FAIR to all competitors. If someone doesn’t like the criteria they don’t have to compete, but if they do compete, it’s no point in them saying after the event that some part of the rules were “unfair” to them. As long as it is the same for everyone the person who lost on a throw out (and complains about it) could just as easily have won on a throw out (and then you would hear no complaints), and that should be known and understood by them before they ever entered the event. To say “if it wasn’t for the throw outs I would have won” is like saying “It isn’t fair, if I had only had one number, one digit less, I would have won lotto” A bit like “spilt milk” if you ask me. You don’t expect to win on a “black Jack” hand in a game of draw poker – do you ???

Here's a question; Would you sail the regatta differently if you knew there would be no throwouts? How and why?

Dermot.... If it were a lottery... I doubt you would continue to play year after year.

It not a lottery... winning and loosing is subtle. AND when coupled with the slight variations in the game will result in different results.

So, you can win the overall regatta but loose in your one design class. Its not a crap shoot... its just the nature of the two games.

The US OPTI association has regattas with Red White, Blue and Green fleets (experience, age and skill factor).

So... they start all of the OPTI's together and score them one to fifty... Then they score you in your fleet. It was a big surprise to find out that Opti scoring does not rescore the sailors... If you were ahead of Sailor X in the overall... You will be ahead of sailor X in the Blue fleet score. (much easier to explain to kids)....

So... you can change the game in the NOR if you want.

My point is we have lots of different games, 0 to 2 discards, \Medal round, Season Highpoints, etc, etc

All have slightly different outcomes... but its not a crap shoot.. We set the rules... we get the results.

I second Darrel's point.

The would of, could of, monday moring quarterbacking is great to BS about... but this is not a reason to label… It a lottery, crap shoot or random dumb luck!

Mark

If there were no throw outs, firstly I would try to avoid any "protest" situation religiously (which could make me sail more "tentatively"), and ensure that I had no "breakages" that made me miss a race (this could keep me from "pushing" really hard). Most importantly, finish every race (no throw aways means sailing the "best odds" -IE, no chances). One missed finish would effectively finish all my chances. (that is the primary reason that there are throw outs, to compensate for "accidents" , the other "idiot" that wants to hit you or "acts of god)
Just a little exercise for the armchair sea lawyers.
This thread started about Bundy and Booth at the F18 worlds. If Booth had have been taken out of the last race at the start line in the five minute countdown by a collision with another boat (not Bundy’s) through no fault of his own, and had to retire would that have made Bundy’s win more “legitimate” in the eyes of the doubters? Or if Booth could have sought successfully for redress for “average points” for that race, would he have still come in second or would he have won? Would his “average points (if successful) have been calculated without throw a ways or with them?

I believce average-points is calculated on ALL race results.

I should have put in a few more smilies <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Folks,
I think Darryl has hit the nail on the head.

You play the game in accordance with the rules set out before the game starts.

The last race of the F18 Worlds was a great race to watch.
Sitting up on the dunes with music over the loud speakers with a running commentary of the race, the palyers strategies and tactics as the game unfolds.

That is how we sould be marketing this sport.

Both Booth and Bundock are the best of the best and both were well aware of the stakes and the rules.

These guys, gettings into their match race for the series, openned up the last race for the other top performers. We had two really exciting races unfold before us.

Had Bundy done anything else,he would have been neglegant. Had Booth got the jump at the start I would have expected nothing less, (than playing the rules to his advantage).

This is the game and the rules dictate how the game
should be played.

From my perspective no matter who won, the series final played out to a great climax to a testing series.

Congratulations to the dominant players in the game.

Mitch Booth and Darren Bundolck.

Regards,
Phill

Maybe we do need to do away with the throwout?

That would mean that John would still be the rightful winner in your example because with the exception for the single throw-out he finished ahead of you more consistantly then you did. Otherwise he can never have less points overall after the throw-out.

In fact not having the throwout would actually favour the lesser skilled crew. A noticeable superior crews race can then be wrecked by a single hick-up (outlier) that he can sustain for any number of reasons that are outside of his controll or further unrelated to his skills.

Example :

Crew 1 does : 1st , 1st, 1st, 1st and 10th because some dummy tacks on the startline and pins of portion of the fleet between "a rock and a hard place"

crew 2 does : 3rd 3rd 3rd 3rd and 1st. as this crew was starting down the line in the last race and missed the pile up.

Now you are saying that crew 2 is the rightfull winner because he sailed more consistantly ?


And this example also explains why sailing has rules like this while track events don't. That is because at a track event you get your own lane or you are the only one on the pitch. Even in car racing your get your own starting position with well defined spacing or right of way. With sailing you don't have any of these rules. Pretty much the start is a brawl and you are criscrossing eachothers bows and sterns by definition and not by chance. Sailing in general is a much more open game then any motor(cross) event or other sports event like athletics.

Wouter

Seems a lot of the problems caused by a tied score situation such as Wouter described above, would be eliminated by only awarding 3/4 point for a first instead of one point. Didn't they used to do that at some events or was that done away with years ago? That way a 1st and a 3rd would out score two seconds. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Absolutely the boat with the 3,3,3,1 should win. They
sailed more consistantly. Staying out of the pileups
is also a skill, of sorts, it's not purely luck.
A boat with three bullits going into the last race
should not be getting themselves into a pileup.
Why should they be rewarded for bad strategy?

They don't give mulligans in stock car
racing, either, Yet many cars are taken out
by others going out of control.

That is interesting, because I would have thought that the reason for starting to have throwouts would be to keep the less experienced (or less serious and committed) sailors from becoming discouraged and dropping out because of a bad race or an equipment breakdown. Sort of like a branch to cling to when you are sinking in quicksand.

So I guess I must be wrong about my original assumption about why throwouts (discards) started in the first place.

I still would love to see the discussions on this topic that must have been had within IYRU back when. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

OK, How about we score it like Figure Skating, throw out both one low AND one high score? After all, the high score might have been due to pure luck, a flyer to the corner, lucky wind shift, etc. while the other faster guys went to the wrong side of the course.

Certainly it would favour consistency much more than just dropping races off the bottom. I like it.

IMO, throw outs serve more than one purpose....

1, they allow you to get back into a series if you have a breakdown
2, they allow you to get back into a series if someone fouls you and you drop down the order as a result - THIS DOES AND WILL HAPPEN, even after turns from the fouling boat, you end up worse, and it is almost impossible to get redress every time.
3, they allow you to get back into a series if you make a mistake

4, they allow you to push the start harder, one OCS is not the end of your series
5, they allow you to push the boat harder, one swim is not the end of your series


now the 64,000 dollar question is do "we" want to discourage 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5 or not ?

1, is probably your fault
2, is probably NOT your fault
3, is your fault
4, is the way you approach the regatta
5, is the way you approach the regatta

now there is more to consider,

4 and 5 will effect the whole way you and other competitors sail the race series, do we want to discorage the competion that is the start?, IMO removing throw-outs will change the start as people will be far more worried about fouling or being over than pushing for a good start. Throw outs also help the "motiation" of the fleet as a whole. Consider a no throw regatta where 3 of the top 10 boats in a competitve fleet like the F18 get bad results, they now CANNOT win - given these people are usually sailing a number of different boats, they might just pack up and go home to sail their Tornado instead, is this something that sould be encouraged?

Simon,
I don't think 4 and 5 are relevant, because they would affect the whole fleet in the same way.

At the risk of generalising too much, I think whatever race and series scoring system we use (and there are infinite variations) the same sailors will win because they will sail in a style to maximise ther chances based on the peculiarities of the system; but this is scoring forcing style, which is not good, surely? So what style of (not necessarily fleet) racing do we want to see at the various levels of the sport and what is the ideal scoring system to accommodate each; and how much should the style/scoring we would like to see be compromised by the race officals natural tendancy to want to keep both simple and consistent...?

In a low point scoring system, just throwing out
the best finish along with the worst only further
rewards bad sailing. Throwing out the best and the
worst only works if you average the scores.

Can of worms, that.

No, it hits the front of the fleet harder (or the chancer who gets OCS more than once)

counting say 50(OCS) in a 1,2,1,2,3,4,1 series is a lot worse than counting a 50 in 44,45,46,46,47,45,40

it would make the front of the fleet more carefull/more risk averse as the OCS is REAL bad news.

This also means that the "sailing people over their discard" tactic just becomes a "sail the boat OCS" tactic.

After a bad result you can still win if other competitors get bad results too. It is fair for everyone. Noone will pack-up and go home after an OCS in the first race.

This isn't the point of my post...

From a pure scoring point of view, it is fairer than the current system for everyone because generally the standard deviation of your remaining results (after drops) will be less than the standard deviation of your remaining results after only dropping the bottom results...generally speaking.

The results that remain after dropping off the extreme top and bottom placings will more likely be closer to your standard place in the fleet...hence it is more fair.

Just have a look at your previous regatta, try scoring by dropping off the top and bottom results (careful with winners that don't compete in the last race). You will notice that the remaining results will likely be closer to your final place.

A fairer system doesn't necessarily mean a better system though.

I shouldn't of used the term "standard deviation", I don't think it's the correct use of it.

It seems to me that obviously Bundy was the most consistant going into the last race..thats why the situation developed as he had a better drop race..and a better net score all be it only 1 point.

I reckon it would be more of a challenge forcing Mitch Booth off the course than racing him.. Anyone reading this forum reckon they could do that..

I think it would be impossible to get a better finish to the series than what occurred.. Good show boys!